Questions about "The Queen of Heaven"

[Davidnic]

All this reminds me of a post in answer to a question from long ago:

Question:

Ok so two different sections of Scripture:

Luke 11:27-28

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out. She shouted, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."
He replied, "Instead, blessed are those who hear God's word and obey it."

Luke 7:28

I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John, but the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
​

My answer:

I think you ask a great question. One we must reflect on to see the proper role of Mary as the Catholic Church teaches it. These verses are vital to understanding that and they reinforce our teaching. They are a caution against excess and an instruction to how and why Mary is important. A real Marian lesson that fits totally in line with Paul VI: Apostolic Exhortation for the Right Ordering and Development of Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary


In this Pope Paul VI said:

When the children of the Church unite their voices with the voice of the unknown woman in the Gospel and glorify the Mother of Jesus by saying to Him: "Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that you sucked" (Lk. 11:27), they will be led to ponder the Divine Master's serious reply: "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Lk. 11:28) While it is true that this reply is in itself lively praise of Mary, as various Fathers of the Church interpreted it and the Second Vatican Council has confirmed, it is also an admonition to us to live our lives in accordance with God's commandments. It is also an echo of other words of the Savior: "Not every one who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Mt. 7:21); and again: "You are my friends if you do what I command you" (Jn. 15:14).​

In both of these Our blessed Lord is saying the same thing. He says, do not think that the claim of closeness to me, the claim of salvation, the claim of greatness is given by anything other than love and obedience to God. By acceptance of the Divine will.

When we see that we also see that Mary exceeds all others. First, is there something special about her as our Lord's mother? Absolutely. Because she accepted the will of God and with it that motherhood. Her motherhood was not accidental. It was not by her motherhood that she followed the will of the Lord...but by her total donation of self to the will of God that she was chosen from all people of all times to be the Mother of our Lord.

So Christ is showing that in the love and obedience to Him and The Father...that is where great gifts are given. And one of the greatest is the gift of motherhood to Mary.

The second verse mirrors the first. If Mary gave her will to God and stayed by Christ to the end and beyond...would not her place in the kingdom be great. The verses give the resounding cry...look not to the things of this world. Look to Me. Look to the Light of the world.

And Mary is an example of how to do this.

The verses can not be taken in the total literal way or else Christ is saying that John is even greater than our Lord...because Christ was born of woman. The Lord is using strong poetic language to get a point across. The meaning of His words are clear. It is not their (Mary and John) relationship to me in the worlds eyes that brings greatness...but their lives...their love of Me. And He calls us to love Him in that same way.

This brings about a necessary mention of Mary's role in Catholic life. It is to bring us closer to Christ.

I have always thought of the Rosary as Mary taking us by the hand and saying: "Come with me, let me show you the life of my Son. See Him and love Him as I do."

When I was young I saw my relationship with Mary in this light. We often see a mother with a baby and we are young. The baby is offered to us to hold, to know....to love. But we are young...like children and afraid. We do not know how to hold the child. The mother often, as Mary does, says: "Here, let me show you how to hold Him."

As I grew up and life gets complex. I have a personal relationship with Christ. And as the world throws us it's curve balls and trials...we falter. Sometimes, even with a wonderful personal relationship with Our blessed Lord...we lose our way. He seems so great and we so small. And in trial and darkness...we need help. He comes to help us...but so does Mary. Because she wants us to love Him so deeply.

When there is trial I think of the young girl of Nazareth. How an angel came and gave her such news. How she gave her total will to the plan of the Lord. And the Joy at the Birth of Christ. The joy of watching Him grow in wisdom as He aged. And then I think of the mother at the foot of the cross. The woman given news by an angel is watching her Son die. If anyone in all of human history could have cursed God and said: "I was lied to...is this Your promise?" It was her at that moment and the moment later when she held Her Son who gave His life for the world. The first to hold Him to her heart in this world and also the last. A mother and child. One saved and the savior. And at that moment she did not abandon Him as her child or her Savior. Can I, in my life...do any less with that example? With that guidance?

How to hold the Lord at Christmas is easy.
The wonderful Child foretold.

How to hold Him at Easter is easy.
Savior and Victor over death.

But to hold Him on Good Friday is hard.
The seemingly dead promise, but in reality the victory of God Himself over Sin and Death. But the eyes to see that in our own daily suffering are dim. Does Easter ever seem as distant as on Good Friday. Surely it is closer in the Joy of Christmas. It would have been so easy for Mary to have left the cross as a broken promise.


But she did not. We know she stayed strong and stayed with the Apostles, just as she stood with Him to the foot of the Cross. From His birth, though His ministry, To the Cross, to Pentecost and beyond. And that is the example we follow...devotion to our Blessed Lord until the end and beyond.

That is how I view the verses as well as how they reinforce the proper Catholic relationship with Mary and why she is so important to us. Yes, we have the Lord. And He helps us know Him better. But we also have Mary and the Saints to show us how to grow and build that relationship with Him. Because our blessed Lord knows...we often need more help than is necessary because we are human and capable of such love...but also such a fall. So He shares with us His own mother and her example. The verses are not a condemnation of her but an exultation of how she lives with Him in her heart. A life that Scripture shows to the foot of the Cross and beyond.


Christ does what she asks because she does not ask Him for things outside of His mercy and love...but what is in perfect accord with it. In that she is the model of all our prayer and relationship with God. It is not that Mary is a shortcut or has Christ do things against His nature...but she helps us model our hearts and actions on hers

 

[Rhamiel]

Im very interested in some of the answers givin on here. I have never heard a catholic answer them like that. Id like to ask a couple questions also without hijacking the thread (my apologies)...

1. Do Catholics believe that Mary worships Christ?

2. Was Mary a woman in need of a savior just like all of us?

1 yes
2 think of sin as a pit that Jesus came to save us from
Jesus lifts us out of the pit of sin and makes us new creations in Him, that is how Christ saves us
Mary was saved in a differant way, she was saved by never being allowed to enter sin
still saved by Christ, just in a special way because she has a special role as the mother of Christ

 

[Davidnic]

She is saved by the same act (His sacrifice and resurrection) it is just applied to her before it happens in a miraculous way (this would be the Catholic belief in the Immaculate Conception). May still relies on Him totally for salvation, as do we.

 

[Sonny1954]

I am a non-denominational Christian who posted a thread in that community section about the Nightline special on Mary last night.I had many respectful replies and was asked to post those questions (without my additional comments) here.I don't come to "convert" nor do I come to be "converted",so let's just have an easy discussion.

RINO, you've already been given many answers. Please tolerate my 2 cents as well?




9

Does the Catholic Church worship Mary? Absolutely not. We venerate her. We honor her. We ask her to pray for us. We acknowledge her special role in our salvation story. She is not a goddess and did not hang on the cross.


Has Mary always played this large of a role in the Catholic Church? Honoring Mary as her role as Jesus Mother seems to go back to the very beginings of the Christian movment.

How do Catholics sidestep the fact the Bible tells us Jesus had younger siblings including two brothers that became apostles? There are two explainations. Because the ancient word for "brother' and "Cousin" is the same one, it is not possible to tell what kind of relative the writer(s) are describing. Since the earliest Christian traditions have taught that Jesus was an only child, Roman Catholics tend to interpret Scripture as saying he has cousins. The Eastern Orthodox, I believe, prefer the tradition that Joseph was an older man, a widower when he married Mary, and so Jesus had step-brother or legal half-brothers.

Is your faith alone in Jesus Christ enough to secure your salvation? No. Jesus himself gives us explicitly the criteria by which people will be welcomed into the Kingdom of sent away: Did you feed the hungry? Did you shelter the homeless? Did you tend to the sick? Did you visit the imprisoned? If you did those things to anyone at all, you did them to ME. "Faith" isn't even mentioned by Jesus.


Again, Im not trying to start a big argument here and I know you have been asked these questions a thousand times.Thank you for your time.

Thank you for posting your questions. I hope that you received some though-provoking answers.

 

[FullyMT]

reading that is really terrifying for me,what if someone dies before they do all those things? or does some but not all, like feeds the poor, cloths etc...? is really scary stuff, makes me feel hopeless. :\

God does not keep a checklist. The question is: if a situation arises in which you CAN do these things, will you? Are you willing to go out of your way to help those in need? Maybe you are more able to do one than the other? Maybe you can do them in a way that is not literal (visiting the imprisoned can be taken literally or figuratively, ie imprisoned through fear or addiction -- although perhaps then it is a spiritual work of mercy).

 

[Vendetta]

Faith, hope, and love (charity). And the greatest of these is...faith? Sola fide runs into a problem there.

 

[WarriorAngel]

reading that is really terrifying for me,what if someone dies before they do all those things? or does some but not all, like feeds the poor, cloths etc...? is really scary stuff, makes me feel hopeless. :\

There is no check list of what must be done. But when the time comes for such acts - they ought to be done and not ignored.
Such as someone you can talk to about Christ who is say Buddhist but you refuse, well you didnt do the works to save someone else.

I am sure you pray for others daily. I am sure you do what God has put before you. Its only in losing the chance to show the world your love for Him and Who He is, that you may not be 'multiplying the talents' the King has given you to multiply.
See where that parable goes?

Anyway - dont try making some bucket list or whatever - God will supply the moments you should do something. Just always take advantage in charity which is love for others to do all you can.

 

[largeli]

1 yes
2 think of sin as a pit that Jesus came to save us from
Jesus lifts us out of the pit of sin and makes us new creations in Him, that is how Christ saves us
Mary was saved in a differant way, she was saved by never being allowed to enter sin
still saved by Christ, just in a special way because she has a special role as the mother of Christ

Ok, so....

*I thought* that Jesus had to be born of a virgin because we humans inherit sin from Adam. Sin is passed onto us through the male seed. This is why *I thought/think* that Jesus had to be born without a human male seed in order to be born sinless. That Jesus was born without sin because of the absense of a male human seed...not because Mary was sinless.

Now having said that, unless Mary was also conceived by a virgin, then wouldnt she have sin passed onto her by her father?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Ok, so....

*I thought* that Jesus had to be born of a virgin because we humans inherit sin from Adam. Sin is passed onto us through the male seed. This is why *I thought/think* that Jesus had to be born without a human male seed in order to be born sinless. That Jesus was born without sin because of the absense of a male human seed...not because Mary was sinless.

Now having said that, unless Mary was also conceived by a virgin, then wouldnt she have sin passed onto her by her father?

The Immaculate Conception is defined thus: "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin."

Broken down further:
1. Mary was born free from the stain of original sin.
2. She remained sinless throughout her life.
3. This is due to Jesus' saving grace applied outside the boundaries of time.
4. Thus, it is by the grace of God.

So no, there is no requirement to have a chain of sinless virgin births in order for the immaculate conception to work.

 

[FriendlyJosh]

appreciate you guys answering my concerns, thought it got lost in the other questions/answers, this forum really is quality, not to put down the non-denom forum but IMHO the answers here truly are more indepth and informative, and that's because you guys speak the truth.

 

[Davidnic]

Ok, so....

*I thought* that Jesus had to be born of a virgin because we humans inherit sin from Adam. Sin is passed onto us through the male seed. This is why *I thought/think* that Jesus had to be born without a human male seed in order to be born sinless. That Jesus was born without sin because of the absense of a male human seed...not because Mary was sinless.

Now having said that, unless Mary was also conceived by a virgin, then wouldnt she have sin passed onto her by her father?

It would have, that is why we believe in the Immaculate Conception...that Christ's redemption was applied to Mary in a special way to make the Incarnation possible. Since she is providing the flesh and all the physical material for Christ that has never been touched by sinful nature.

This Immaculate Conception is really beyond our understanding, much how many things relating to the Incarnation are. We accept as a matter of Faith that given what we do know (that the effects of Original Sin did not touch Him) that this is how it happened.

Archbishop Fulton Sheen point out that it is though Mary's free willed choice to "let it be done unto" her and then through her flesh that Christ is given the physical part of a human nature.

So since that human nature needs to be untouched by the sin of Adam, we believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. This is why she is called full or Grace or Highly favored. Gabriel's greeting indicates that she is already possessed of Grace or (as Grace translates) Favor or Gift. She was already possessed of the special favor and gift of Grace through Christ in a special way.

 

[Davidnic]

The Immaculate Conception is defined thus: "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin."

Broken down further:
1. Mary was born free from the stain of original sin.
2. She remained sinless throughout her life.
3. This is due to Jesus' saving grace applied outside the boundaries of time.
4. Thus, it is by the grace of God.

So no, there is no requirement to have a chain of sinless virgin births in order for the immaculate conception to work.

 

[Dark_Lite]

appreciate you guys answering my concerns, thought it got lost in the other questions/answers, this forum really is quality, not to put down the non-denom forum but IMHO the answers here truly are more indepth and informative, and that's because you guys speak the truth.

Well when the answer to "do Catholics worship Mary?" is "all of them say they don't, their writings say they don't, but they really do--it's just that simple.", it's more difficult to give a less in-depth and less correct answer. When the answers are completely wrong and don't have any substantiation, it's almost impossible to do worse!

 

[Davidnic]

And we only give God the worship do to God...called Latria. Mary and the saints are given a veneration and respect called Dulia. Mary a special form called Hyper-Dulia above any other saint. Her position only approached after her (arguably) by John the Baptist and St. Joseph, who also have a kind of special veneration (not really a theologically defined one) but not the same as the honor given Our Lady.

 

[Vendetta]

Well when the answer to "do Catholics worship Mary?" is "all of them say they don't, their writings say they don't, but they really do--it's just that simple.", it's more difficult to give a less in-depth and less correct answer. When the answers are completely wrong and don't have any substantiation, it's almost impossible to do worse!

You. I like you.

 

[largeli]

The Immaculate Conception is defined thus: "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin."

.

Where would one be able to find this writting? Who wrote it?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Where would one be able to find this writting? Who wrote it?

Pius IX: Pius IX - Apostolic Constitution

Apparently it was originally defined in a document by Alexander VII.

 

[largeli]

So since that human nature needs to be untouched by the sin of Adam, we believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Wouldnt the fact that there was no male seed be the circumstance that kept original sin from touching Him? Or is this only a part of the equation?

 

[Davidnic]

Wouldnt the fact that there was no male seed be the circumstance that kept original sin from touching Him? Or is this only a part of the equation?

Only part. Since all the physical matter for the body is provided by Mary, there would need to be some other intervention by the Divine to account for her end of the physical equation.

Of course...like I said we are talking about defining a mysterious and miraculous action...always difficult.

 

[largeli]

Only part. Since all the physical matter for the body is provided by Mary, there would need to be some other intervention by the Divine to account for her end of the physical equation.

Of course...like I said we are talking about defining a mysterious and miraculous action...always difficult.

I see. Hey thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it.

God Bless!