Questions about the Baha'i

[light upon light]

It is clear Baha'allah distorted the meaning of the day of judgement/rising in Quran.

Chapter and verse?

 

[AskTheFamily]

Chapter and verse?

Well he stated day of rising/judgement is really when one manifestation of God appears then becomes the day of judgement of the previous manifestation.

For example he states Jesus manifestation was the day of judgement/rising of Moses. Mohammad manifestation was the day of judgement of Jesus. And that literal interpretation is not what is true and that day of judgement/rising has been misinterpreted by Muslims.

I think anyone reading Quran verses about the day of rising/judgement knows who is distorting what verses and who is not.

I don't recall the exact place Baha'allah stated this, it was long ago I read Bahai texts. I can look it up if you want but I think you are more aware of this interpretation then I am.

 

[light upon light]

I've searched this hadith on Google: only baha'i sites. It's a fabrication.

That's because I gave it to you in English using a Baha'i translation. That's why the Baha'i websites come up. Also because it was quoted by Baha'u'llah, hence it becomes part of the Baha'i scriptures as well.

In this case, the hadith can be found in:

Al-Majlisi, Bihar al-anwar, volume 2, page 198

Of course, this is a Shia Hadith, so Sunni won't necessarily recognize it.

 

[light upon light]

Hi AskTheFamily, thanks for engaging on this thread and asking questions.

You said Baha'u'llah distorts the Qur'an regarding the Day of Judgment, so I was asking for specific chapters and verses from the Qur'an that you feel Baha'u'llah distorted, so I can specifically address them.

I understand that Baha'u'llah has presented a very different interpretation of the Day of Judgment than most Muslims hold, but I also believe the Baha'i interpretation makes a lot of sense and I'd like to try and show that here if you are interested.

 

[Mumin]

-

 

[AskTheFamily]

Hi AskTheFamily, thanks for engaging on this thread and asking questions.

You said Baha'u'llah distorts the Qur'an regarding the Day of Judgment, so I was asking for specific chapters and verses from the Qur'an that you feel Baha'u'llah distorted, so I can specifically address them.

I understand that Baha'u'llah has presented a very different interpretation of the Day of Judgment than most Muslims hold, but I also believe the Baha'i interpretation makes a lot of sense and I'd like to try and show that here if you are interested.

Sure we can get into that discussion, why not?

 

[light upon light]

6:93 And who is more unjust than one who invents a lie about Allah or says, "It has been inspired to me," while nothing has been inspired to him, and one who says, "I will reveal [something] like what Allah revealed." And if you could but see when the wrongdoers are in the overwhelming pangs of death while the angels extend their hands, [saying], "Discharge your souls! Today you will be awarded the punishment of [extreme] humiliation for what you used to say against Allah other than the truth and [that] you were, toward His verses, being arrogant."

This passages are criticism of those who claim divine Revelation without authority. I wasn't referring to inspiration claiming authority, simply those who do what is right and seek to make the world a better place.

 

[AskTheFamily]

إِنَّهُمْ يَرَوْنَهُ بَعِيدًا {6}
[Shakir 70:6] Surely they think it to be far off,
[Pickthal 70:6] Lo! they behold it afar off
[Yusufali 70:6] They see the (Day) indeed as a far-off (event):
وَنَرَاهُ قَرِيبًا {7}
[Shakir 70:7] And We see it nigh.
[Pickthal 70:7] While we behold it nigh:
[Yusufali 70:7] But We see it (quite) near.
يَوْمَ تَكُونُ السَّمَاءُ كَالْمُهْلِ {8}
[Shakir 70:8] On the day when the heaven shall be as molten copper
[Pickthal 70:8] The day when the sky will become as molten copper,
[Yusufali 70:8] The Day that the sky will be like molten brass,
وَتَكُونُ الْجِبَالُ كَالْعِهْنِ {9}
[Shakir 70:9] And the mountains shall be as tufts of wool
[Pickthal 70:9] And the hills become as flakes of wool,
[Yusufali 70:9] And the mountains will be like wool,
وَلَا يَسْأَلُ حَمِيمٌ حَمِيمًا {10}
[Shakir 70:10] And friend shall not ask of friend
[Pickthal 70:10] And no familiar friend will ask a question of his friend
[Yusufali 70:10] And no friend will ask after a friend,
يُبَصَّرُونَهُمْ ۚ يَوَدُّ الْمُجْرِمُ لَوْ يَفْتَدِي مِنْ عَذَابِ يَوْمِئِذٍ بِبَنِيهِ {11}
[Shakir 70:11] (Though) they shall be made to see each other. The guilty one would fain redeem himself from the chastisement of that day by (sacrificing) his children,
[Pickthal 70:11] Though they will be given sight of them. The guilty man will long to be able to ransom himself from the punishment of that day at the price of his children
[Yusufali 70:11] Though they will be put in sight of each other,- the sinner's desire will be: Would that he could redeem himself from the Penalty of that Day by (sacrificing) his children,
وَصَاحِبَتِهِ وَأَخِيهِ {12}
[Shakir 70:12] And his wife and his brother
[Pickthal 70:12] And his spouse and his brother
[Yusufali 70:12] His wife and his brother,
وَفَصِيلَتِهِ الَّتِي تُؤْوِيهِ {13}
[Shakir 70:13] And the nearest of his kinsfolk who gave him shelter,
[Pickthal 70:13] And his kin that harboured him
[Yusufali 70:13] His kindred who sheltered him,
وَمَنْ فِي الْأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا ثُمَّ يُنْجِيهِ {14}
[Shakir 70:14] And all those that are in the earth, (wishing) then (that) this might deliver him.
[Pickthal 70:14] And all that are in the earth, if then it might deliver him.
[Yusufali 70:14] And all, all that is on earth,- so it could deliver him:
كَلَّا ۖ إِنَّهَا لَظَىٰ {15}
[Shakir 70:15] By no means! Surely it is a flaming fire
[Pickthal 70:15] But nay! for lo! it is the fire of hell
[Yusufali 70:15] By no means! for it would be the Fire of Hell!-


I think it's clear that on that day the wicked will try to ransom himself but he won't be able to. Also this day a friend won't ask about his friend.

Let me hear your thoughts on these verses.

 

[smaneck]

Not true. Certainly, in Arabia, the Jewish community was probably as sizeable as the Christian one, but Christianity in the 7th century had a very large number of adherents.

Please note, it is not my statement you are responding to.

 

[Arthra]

I've done a random check of a few Muslim sites about hidden meanings of the Qur'an:


"The book of God comprises four things:

the statement set down,

the allusions,

the hidden meanings relating to the supra-sensible world,

and the exalted spiritual doctrines.

The literal statement is for the ordinary believers. The allusions are the concern of the elite. The hidden meanings pertain to the friends of God. The exalted spiritual doctrines are the province of the prophets."

Imam, Jafar Sadiq (d. 765 CE

I checked a few Muslim sites:

"The Prophet, who is the divinely appointed teacher of the Quran, says:

The Qur'an has a beautiful exterior and a profound interior.

He has also said,

The Qur'an has an inner dimension, and that inner dimension has an inner dimension up to seven inner dimensions.

Also, in the sayings of the Imams there are numerous references to the inner aspect of the Qur'an."

Allah has created different levels of spirituality, ranks of nearness and presence, and high spiritual objects as well.

A hadith attributed to Muhammad is essential in understanding the inward aspects of the Quran, and is fundamental to Quranic exegesis:

"The Quran possesses an external appearance and a hidden depth, an exoteric meaning and an esoteric meaning. This esoteric meaning in turn conceals an esoteric meaning so it goes on for seven esoteric meanings (seven depths of hidden depth)."

(Further) the Prophet said that the Qur'an had a literal. meaning, an inner meaning, a terminal point (of understanding), and a starting point (for understanding .... According to the opinion of some scholars, every verse can be understood in sixty thousand ways, and what then still remains unexhausted (in its meaning) is more numerous. Others have maintained that the Qur'an contains seventy-seven thousand and two hundred (kinds of knowledge, since every word constitutes one (kind of) knowledge. This then increases fourfold since every word has a literal meaning, an inner meaning, a terminal point (of understanding) and a starting point (for understanding)....

http://mesacc.edu/~thoqh49081/handouts/ghazali-interp.html

 

[AskTheFamily]

The inner dimensions expand on the outer dimension, an example, is the 12 months with four being sacred, the Quran then says "that is the upright religion", and so it's literal about 12 months but it's also a parable as literal months can't define the true religion which is submission to God, so the the year being Mohammad and the 12 months being the 12 Imams, and the four sacred being Ali who's name is a name of Allah, and is half of Harun's name which has a theme of the raising the mention of God's word and his chosen ones and there was particular theme in that with Harun's name in Suratal Taha. Consequently there Wilayah is the way to submit to God and his Messenger, and even during the life time of Mohammad, Ali was the door to the house of wisdom and the wage of loving the family of Mohammad was said to a path to Allah.

God knows best.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Like wise, the day of Qiyama is an event, but it's also been said to be hidden and a connected reality to us where it's affair is but a twinkle of an eye or closer still, so it has a reality with laylal qadr (descent of the truth unity into multiplicity) and it's other side (ascent of the truth from multiplicity to unity).

But to deny the manifest meaning of the day of judgement in my opinion is a form of kufr, and rejecting clear evidence.

 

[Arthra]

All in the Family,

Thanks for sharing the "inner dimensions expand on the outer dimension" material and twelve months and so on.. I take it you'll be fasting soon this year..in another month or so... As Baha'is we've already had our Fast before Naw-Ruz (March 21st) this past year.

Our year as you may recall has nineteen months of nineteen days each month for a solar year... The names of the months were set by the Bab based on the attributes of God and the prayer used during Ramadan.. Du'ay-i-Sahar.

As to Judgment Day I think you have some idea about our concept of it...failing to recognize the Manifestation of God in our day is a kind of "judgment".

 

[Niblo]

Hi Niblo,

Did you by any chance read this article? I'd like to hear your comments on it:

A Bahá'í Approach to the Claim of Finality in Islam

Hello Susan.

Very interesting article. This reply is spread over three posts.

The authors’ stated intention is to: ‘provide the basis of a new framework reconciling the Bahá'í belief that manifestations of God have appeared, in the persons of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, and will continue to appear "till the end that hath no end” with the time-honoured Islamic doctrines of khatm al-nubuwwa (finality of prophethood), and Islam as the final divinely revealed religion.’

They challenge (in particular) the doctrine of khatm al-nubuwwa; seeing it as: ‘the major theological barrier between the Bahá'í Faith and Islam.’

It is necessary to clarify their use of the word ‘prophet’; an alien word when applied to the Arabic language; and especially so when it is used within the context of Islam. The correct words to use when applying the term ‘prophet’ to the Noble Qur’an are ‘Nabī’ and ‘Rasūl’.

In the Islamic context, a Nabī (‘Prophet’) is a man sent by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) to provide guidance to humankind; but who is not given scripture. A Rasūl (‘Messenger’) is also charge with providing guidance, but he is given scripture. All Rasūl are considered to be Nabī; but not all Nabī were Rasūl.

Concerning the section headed: ‘The Founder of Islam as Nabí.’

It is misleading to state that Islam was founded by a ‘Nabī’. Islam was ‘founded’ by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) by means of revelation to Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam); who became a Rasūl the moment his Lord first said to him (through Jibril - ʿalayhi as-salām): ‘Read! In the name of your Lord who created. He created man from a clinging form. Read! Your Lord is the Most Bountiful One who taught by (means of) the pen, who taught man what he did not know.’ (Al-‘Alaq: 1-5).

It makes no difference (as the authors would have one believe) how many times the words ‘Rasūl’ or ‘Nabī’ are applied to Muhammad; or whether one was used more (or less) in a certain period of his life that the other; or why this might or might not have been the case. What matters is that he was (and is) the Rasúl-Alláh.

 

[Niblo]

Concerning the finality of Islam:

The authors claim that the terms Nabí (prophet) and Rasúl (messenger) have:

‘….distinctly different semantic applications in the Qur'án which sometimes overlap, and have a bearing on the correlative language of the religions of the world. These semantic differences leave open the possibility, in a number of verses, for the appearance of future messengers.’ (My emphasis).

Imam Ghazali was very well aware that if one relies on the words of a given revelation alone, then many possibilities of interpretation may exist; and that some these may seriously undermine the purpose of that revelation. He insisted that any interpretation must be measured against how it was understood in the Islamic community. According to him, where there is a consensus in the community about that revelation then this consensus must be the true reflection of its purpose; and such is binding.

In respect of the finality of prophethood he writes:

‘As for the received tradition, the person (who says that a `new messenger' can still arise) will not be incapable of making various interpretations of the prophetic tradition ‘la nabiya ba`di’ ("There is no prophet after me") and God's words ‘khatam al-nabiyyin’ ("seal of the prophets"). Thus he might say that by ‘khatam al-nabiyyin’ God means the last of the prominent messengers. If you argue that nabiyyin (prophets) is general and is used without any specification, then it is not difficult to give a general term a specific meaning.

‘In respect of the prophetic tradition la nabiya ba`di ("There is no prophet after me") a person can say that this expression does not cover messengers and there is a difference between a messenger and prophet, prophet being (according to his view) superior to a messenger (so that a prophet cannot arise after the Prophet Muhammad but a messenger can still arise). Similarly, he can put forward many other arguments, which on the basis of the language used cannot be rejected. Indeed, we admit the possibility of even more remote interpretations of words used in the symbolic statements (zawahir al-tashbih).

‘We cannot even say that a person who makes such interpretations is guilty of rejecting the clear injunctions. But in refuting him we shall say that the entire Ummah by a consensus understands that the word (la nabiya ba`di) in view of the circumstances of the Prophet means that neither a prophet nor a messenger will ever arise after him. There is no room for any different interpretation nor for giving special meaning (to the term nabiyyin, prophets).

‘If, therefore, any one denies this interpretation, he can (in the first place) be described only as the denier of the consensus. And then in the second place, if the consensus is considered binding, we can unhesitatingly pronounce such a person a non-believer.

(al-iqtisad fi al-i‘tiqad).

Comment:

This is a clear rejection of the authors’ claim that ‘……semantic differences leave open the possibility, in a number of verses, for the appearance of future messengers.’

In his work ‘The Creed of a Muslim’, Abū al-Ḥasan ʿAlī ibn Ismāʿīl Al-Ashʿarī writes that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) has:

‘...sealed this Messengership, warning, and Prophethood with his Prophet Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, whom He made the last of the Messengers - “A bringer of good news and a warner, calling to Allah by His permission and an illuminating lamp.”

Commenting on this statement Afroz Ali, of the al-Ghazzali Centre for Islamic Sciences and Human Development, writes:

‘Revelation, which is warning and prophethood, which is informing about what Allah has said, reaches its end with the Prophet Muhammad. There will be no Prophets after him. He brings the good news that whoever follows him will be happy and whoever does not will be punished. He calls to Allah, conveying tawhid to the legally responsible…….He is an illuminating light because his Shari’a is a light which guides the bewildered – whoever follows it and proceeds along the Straight Path will emerge from the darkness of disbelief to the light of belief.’

Comment:

Abū al-Ḥasan ʿAlī ibn Ismāʿīl Al-Ashʿarī is recognised as one of the three or four most influential and orthodox thinkers in the history of Islam. He has been referred to as: ‘this greatest theological authority in orthodox Islam.’ (Ignaz Goldziher).

Ashʿarite doctrine is recognised as the official orthodoxy of Sunnī Islam; and its teachings are generally seen as the embodiment of Islamic orthodoxy.
Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Alawi al-Maliki al-Hasani says of the Ashʿarīs:

‘(They) are the Imams of the notable figures of guidance among the scholars of the Muslims, whose knowledge has filled the world from both east to west……They include whole sections of the foremost Imams of Hadith, Sacred Law and Qur’anic exegesis…..If we wanted to name all of the top scholars of Hadith, Qur’anic exegises, and Sacred Law who were Imams of the Ashʿarīs we would be hard pressed to do so.’

(Notions That Must Be Corrected; Page 78.)

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyya (sorry Susan!) said of the Ashʿarīs:

‘The scholars are the helpers of the religious sciences, and the Ashʿarīs are the helpers of the fundamentals of the religion.’
(Al-Fatawa, Vol. 4).

In the ‘Reliance of the Traveller’ - the classic manual of Islamic sacred law - by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri; translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, we find:

‘Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) is the last prophet and messenger. Anyone claiming to be a prophet or messenger of Allah after him or to found a new religion is a fraud, misled and misleading. Islam is the final religion that Allah Most High will never lessen or abrogate until the Last Day’.

Comment:

The Reliance of the Traveller is widely acknowledged one of the finest and most reliable works in Shafi'i jurisprudence; a school with, perhaps, the least amount of scholarly differences on rulings than any other.

For over a thousand years the Muslims have held to the conviction that Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is the last of the Rasūl and of the Nabī, and they have done so in complete accord with the scholars of Islam.

Were it possible to place these scholars in one dish of a balance-scale, and in the other the Western Orientalists quoted by the authors, I have no doubt at all that the latter would be propelled skywards - at jowl quivering speed - by the force of the upward momentum.

 

[Niblo]

Third Post:

Concerning the Bahá'í literature:

According to the authors:

‘The predominant explanation of khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) in Bahá'í literature is focussed on the belief that Baha’u’llah is the fulfilment of the Qur'ánic eschatology.

‘In this perspective, Muhammad is the last prophet prior to the Last Day, rather than the last prophet in a temporal sense.’

Comment:

According to Islam, the Day of Judgement (‘Yawm ad-Dīn&#8217 will come only after certain signs have been fulfilled. There is no point dwelling on all of these signs; a few will suffice:

Medina will be deserted. Yeshua will return (not as prophet, but as Messiah). Mecca will be attacked, and the Ka’aba destroyed. The Noble Qur’an will be forgotten; and all Islamic knowledge will be lost. The Mahdi will arise to assist Yeshua in the battle against Masih ad-Dajjal.

Medina is not yet deserted and the Ka’aba is intact. The Noble Qur’an has not been forgotten, and all Islamic knowledge has not been lost. There is no sign of Yeshua. There is no sign of the Mahdi (although there have been several claimants; namely):

Muhammad Ahmad of Sudan, who died of typhus at the age of forty; Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who did rather better, dying at the age of seventy three from complications arisng out of dysentery; and Siyyid `Alí Muḥammad Shírází - founder of Bábism and a central figure in the Bahá'í Faith. He was murdered by firing-squad at the age of thirty.

As far as I am aware, none of these people ever fought alongside Yeshua against Masih ad-Dajjal; and since they are now dead, doing so is going to be a wee bit tricky. May Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) have mercy on each of them.

Concerning the Shi’a ‘Twelvers’:

Followers of Twelver Shi'a Islam believe in twelve divinely ordained Imams - starting with Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (ʿalayhi as-salām), the Fourth Caliph of the Muslims……. and ending with a certain Muhammad ibn Hasan al-Mahdī.

Hasan al-Mahdī was born in 869 AD and ‘disappeared’ at the age of seventy. Some say he is lurking in the ether somewhere; and others that he is still among us, but in disguise. All I can say is that this disguise must be pretty effective, since it ought to be quite easy to suss a geezer who is over a thousand years old.

According to the Noble Qur’an the Day of Judgement will see:

People resurrected and gathered with the living, to account for their deeds; and with neither having the will nor the opportunity to pay attention to those around them; irrespective of whether these are parents, spouses or children.

On this Day each person will be alone before the presence of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla); and each deeds and thought will be displayed.

Since this Day has not yet arrived; and since Bahá'u'lláh is dead, I have no idea how he can be the ‘fulfilment of the Qur'ánic eschatology’.

The authors write:

‘After the cycle of prophecy (dá'irat al-nubúwa) that ended with Muhammad, the "Seal of the Prophets," there comes the cycle of Initiation (dá'irat al-waláya), the present cycle, placed under the spiritual rule of the Twelfth Imám, the hidden Imám . . .’

Comment:

‘…….the cycle of prophecy (dá'irat al-nubúwa) that ended with Muhammad’. Is this an admission that he truly was the last Rasūl and the Nabī after all? It sure look like one; so why have the authors spent so much effort saying he wasn’t?

‘…….there comes the cycle of Initiation (dá'irat al-waláya), the present cycle, placed under the spiritual rule of the Twelfth Imám, the hidden Imám . . .’

I would love to know how this super geriatric is managing to do this.

And that:

‘With the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, in the Bahá'í view, humankind has entered a new religious cycle characterized by a fuller theophany. In this cycle, concepts like `prophet' and `messenger' have been transcended.’

Comment:

I would say of the authors that their true purpose is not to reconcile Islam with Bahá’í beliefs, but to persuade the reader that the latter is a continuation of divine policy by other means (with apologies to Carl von Clausewitz).

Just an aside:

Thank you for suggesting I read the article. I accept, of course, that the Bahá'í hold to their beliefs with sincerity and conviction; confident they have good reason for so doing (as do all believers, no matter what the object of their belief - be it religious or secular). Over the years I have come to realise that debate of this sort, while it exercises the brain (a much needed process in a ‘mere’ geriatric such as I) seldom changes opinion; especially when this opinion is deeply rooted. I am reminded of the words of Khayyám: ‘Myself when young did eagerly frequent Doctor and Saint and heard great argument about it and about: but evermore came out by that same door as in I went.’

Perhaps that is how it should be.

Have a great day now.

Paul.

 

[Arthra]

Paul thanks for your detailed responses...

I have just a few comments to make..since you raised the topic of the occultation of the twelfth Imam...

You wrote:

"Hasan al-Mahdī was born in 869 AD and ‘disappeared’ at the age of seventy."

I believe you're referring to what's called the "minor occultation" that was supposed to have lasted seventy years ... He apparently issued edicts through four abbab "gates" before the major occultation.

The wiki article you may be familiar with indicated:

Twelver Shī‘a believe that al-Mahdī was born in 869 (15 Sha‘bān 255 AH) and assumed Imamate at 5 years of age following the death of his father Hasan al-Askari

So the year 260 AH is probably the last year he was supposed to have had a earthly existence... before his occultations. The year 1260 AH when the Bab announced His Mission was a thousand lunar years later and this was significant to many of the Shiahs of the Shaykhi school. Also at first some believed the title "Bab" Gate referred to His having contact with the twelfth Imam.

You also wrote:

"As far as I am aware, none of these people ever fought alongside Yeshua against Masih ad-Dajjal; and since they are now dead, doing so is going to be a wee bit tricky. May Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) have mercy on each of them."

Fighting along side Yeshua against Masih ad-Dajjal in a literal battle is for us not an issue...or the Hadith it is based on.

In our view the Bab Siyyid Ali Muhammad fulfilled the prophecy of the return of the Spirit of Christ.. An examination of His relatively brief ministry has parallels to the life of Christ in our opinion.. His imprisonment and martyrdom when examined closely in our view.

Allow me to refer to a few of the prophecies from Shiah sources regarding the Qa'im which may be less known than some of the eschatology you cited above:

There are so many of these I will only cite this one:

Harun Yahya asked:


In his hadiths the Prophet (saas) told us that the Mahdi will be opposed to terror and violence, and that the anarchic environment and all acts of terror will come to an end in his day.

The hadiths state that in the time of the Mahdi all weapons will fall silent and wars will come to an end:

War will lay down its burden (arms and the like). (Sunan Ibn Majah, 10/334; Imam Sharani)

No Blood Will Be Shed in the Time of the Mahdi

Again according to the hadiths,

the Mahdi will bring justice to the whole world, but not one single drop of blood will be shed. The Mahdi will be opposed to terror and violence. War and conflict will come to an end. Yet the Mahdi will follow a very peaceful path as he does all this. This attribute of the Mahdi is set out as follows in the hadith:

In the same way that bees gather round the queen, so people will gather round the Mahdi. He will fill the world, once filled with oppression, with justice instead. Such will be his justice that the sleeping man will not be awakened and no blood will be shed. The world will return to the Age of Happiness.

(al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar, pp. 29 and 48)

So I think there are very different views of the Mahdi and you have your perspective...

I also wanted to quote from the Writings of the Bab in closing:

“Thus on the Day of Resurrection God will ask everyone of his understanding and not of his following in the footsteps of others. How often a person, having inclined his ears to the holy verses, would bow down in humility and would embrace the Truth, while his leader would not do so. Thus every individual must bear his own responsibility, rather than someone else bearing it for him.”

Good sharing with you Paul!

- Art

 

[Niblo]

Hi Art.

Thank you for your reply. Please give me a few days to uncross my eyes, and do a wee bit more reading, before I come back to you.

Have a great day.

Paul.

 

[AskTheFamily]

[4:157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

بَلْ رَفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا {158}
[ 4:158] Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
وَإِنْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا {159}
[4:159] And there is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -

This shows before Isa dies, all of the people book will believe in him. This refers to his 2nd coming and so before he dies, all Jews and Christians will believe in him.

This clearly shows Isa has not died, as not all people of the book believed in him at the day he supposedly died. And the verse is also saying "but will believe in him" meaning it's about the future, which shows Isa (as) has not died.

These verses are clear, and in sequence show Isa did not die, and that just to emphasize that this is not metaphoric or anything, it says all of the people of the book will believe in him before his death. It can also be stated that all of the people of book will believe in this before his death.

As obviously not every one of the people of book believes in Isa or his rank with God before his own death, death refers to the death of Isa.

This is another clear proof!

 

[Arthra]

All in the Family...

Thanks for your post.. I gather from it you feel it is a "clear proof"...

The Baha'i view as you may know is that Jesus was martyred on the cross.. that His body was crucified, but that His Spirit could not be crucified or "killed".

'Abdu'l-Baha's interpretation of the verse is provided in a Tablet published in Star of the West, vol. 2, no. 7, p. 13, in which He has written:

"In regard to the verse, which is revealed in the Qur'an, that His Highness, Christ, was not killed and was not crucified, by this is meant the Reality of Christ. Although they crucified this elemental body, yet the merciful reality and the heavenly existence remain eternal and undying, and it was protected from the oppression and persecution of the enemies, for Christ is eternal and Everlasting. How can He die? This death and crucifixion was imposed on the physical body of Christ, and not upon the Spirit of Christ"

There's a verse in the Qur'an:

"And say not, of those who are killed in the cause of Allāh that they are dead, nay, they are living; only you perceive not."

(Holy Qur’ān 2:154)

The Spirit of Jesus was taken up by Allah..

[ 4:158] "Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise"

Consider also the Gospel of Luke:

There is also very lovely way this is confirmed by the Gospel of Luke..

The last words of Jesus on the cross according to the Gospel of Luke translated in the Jerusalem Bible read:

....and when Jesus had cried out in a loud voice, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit" with these words he breathed His last.

~ Luke 22:46


So Jesus committed His Spirit to God and the Qur'an says Allah raised him up unto Himself.