Questions about the Baha'i

[Arthra]

This evening we'll be observing the First Day of Ridvan and many Baha'i communities will be electing their administrative body the Local Spiritual Assembly... Any community with nine adult believers has an election using secret ballot... there are no nominations made and no electioneering is permitted. Our community has elected Spiritual Assemblies for the past forty years...

The day also commemorates the entry of Baha'u'llah to what we call the Garden of Ridvan on the banks of the Tigris River in Baghdad on His way to Istanbul summoned by the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire...

 

[AskTheFamily]

You didn't address the main point of what I wrote:

These verses are clear, and in sequence show Isa did not die, and that just to emphasize that this is not metaphoric or anything, it says all of the people of the book will believe in him before his death. It can also be stated that all of the people of book will believe in this before his death.

As obviously not every one of the people of book believes in Isa or his rank with God before his own death, death refers to the death of Isa.

 

[Arthra]

You didn't address the main point of what I wrote:

Ask The family,

Thanks for your post...

We disagree with the premise that "Isa did not die" ... His Spirit was not "killed". His body was crucified... that's the Baha'i view.

Regarding Ridvan... Last night our community elected members of our forty second Local Spiritual Assembly from 1973 to 2015!

 

[AskTheFamily]

Ask The family,

Thanks for your post...

We disagree with the premise that "Isa did not die" ... His Spirit was not "killed". His body was crucified... that's the Baha'i view.

Regarding Ridvan... Last night our community elected members of our forty second Local Spiritual Assembly from 1973 to 2015!

Did you read the next verse after that, it says there will be no people of the book but that will believe in him before his death. So what's your explanation of that. Obviously when Jesus was supposedly crucified, Jews didn't believe in him. Also that this stating in a future tense, people WILL believe in him before his death. Meaning his death has not yet occurred. So what's your explanation to that verse?

 

[AskTheFamily]

It should also be noted, Jews don't all believe in Jesus before their own death. So to interpret like that doesn't make sense either.

 

[Arthra]

Did you read the next verse after that, it says there will be no people of the book but that will believe in him before his death. So what's your explanation of that. Obviously when Jesus was supposedly crucified, Jews didn't believe in him. Also that this stating in a future tense, people WILL believe in him before his death. Meaning his death has not yet occurred. So what's your explanation to that verse?

Thanks for you post!

I think we may have an issue with translation in that particular verse ... While Baha'is don't have a particular translation that we prefer officially ... I would recommend you read the translation and comments by Muhammad Asad.

Verse 4:519 has:

"Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus, and on the Day of Resurrection he (himself) shall bear witness to the truth against them."

Muhammad Asad has a comment:

Lit., "who does not believe in him before his death". According to this verse, all believing Jews and Christians realize at the moment of their death thatJesus was truly a prophet of God - having been neither an imposter nor "the son of God" (Zamakhshari).

You can find the above on p. 154 of the Complete Edition published 2003 by The Book Foundation Bristol England. A lovely edition in my view!

- Art

 

[AskTheFamily]

Thanks for you post!

I think we may have an issue with translation in that particular verse ... While Baha'is don't have a particular translation that we prefer officially ... I would recommend you read the translation and comments by Muhammad Asad.

Verse 4:519 has:

"Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus, and on the Day of Resurrection he (himself) shall bear witness to the truth against them."

Muhammad Asad has a comment:

Lit., "who does not believe in him before his death". According to this verse, all believing Jews and Christians realize at the moment of their death thatJesus was truly a prophet of God - having been neither an imposter nor "the son of God" (Zamakhshari).

You can find the above on p. 154 of the Complete Edition published 2003 by The Book Foundation Bristol England. A lovely edition in my view!

- Art

It says "before" their death, and people are not shown that Jesus is a Prophet of God before their death. It comes after death that they know the truth. Before death, it's obvious they don't know. Jews don't find out Jesus is a Prophet of God right before they die. That is absurd.

This also goes against the flow, the topic was about him not getting killed nor crucified, and then stating "and not of the people of the book but will believe in him before his death"

 

[AskTheFamily]

There is many verses that state "and die while disbelievers" showing many people die in a state of disbelief.

 

[Arthra]

There is many verses that state "and die while disbelievers" showing many people die in a state of disbelief.

Thanks for the reminder ...

Let's be sure we're not one of them!

I'm reminded of what Baha'u'llah revealed :

Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of Divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face -- the face of God Himself....

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 17

 

[Mumin]

-

 

[AskTheFamily]

Thanks for the reminder ...

Let's be sure we're not one of them!

I'm reminded of what Baha'u'llah revealed :

Consider the past. How many, both high and low, have, at all times, yearningly awaited the advent of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones. How often have they expected His coming, how frequently have they prayed that the breeze of Divine mercy might blow, and the promised Beauty step forth from behind the veil of concealment, and be made manifest to all the world. And whensoever the portals of grace did open, and the clouds of divine bounty did rain upon mankind, and the light of the Unseen did shine above the horizon of celestial might, they all denied Him, and turned away from His face -- the face of God Himself....

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 17

The point is not all people of the book will die believing in Jesus.

 

[Arthra]

Thanks for your post "Ask the family"!

There are at least two views on that verse you are concerned with! and both views have been readily available:

This passage is expounded two ways.

Some, referring the relative his, to the first antecedent, take the meaning to be, that no Jew or Christian shall die before he believes in Jesus: for they say, that when one of either of those religions is ready to breathe his last, and sees the angel of death before him, he shall then believe in that prophet as he ought, though his faith will not then be of any avail. ...

Others, taking the above-mentioned relative to refer to Jesus, suppose the intent of the passage to be, that all Jews and Christians in general shall have a right faith in that prophet before his death, that is, when he descends from heaven and returns into the world, where he is to kill Antichrist, and to establish the Mohammedan religion, and a most perfect tranquility and security on earth.1

1 Jallalo’ddin, Yahya, al Zamakhshari, and al Beidâwi. See the Prelim. Disc. Sect. IV.

r i.e., Against the Jews, for rejecting him; and against the Christians, for calling him GOD, and the son of GOD.2

2 Al Beidâwi.

.......................................

As Baha'is we generally do not favor literalist interpretations. I think the translation offered by Muhammad Asad is the one I prefer.. You apparently prefer the other.

Have a great day!

- Art

 

[Mumin]

-

 

[light upon light]

Let me hear your thoughts on these verses.

I see a distinction between the "minor resurrection" (which is our own individual judgment of our lives after death, before moving on to our place in the hereafter) and the "greater resurrection).

The passages you quoted I see as primarily referring to the "minor resurrection".

The "greater resurrection" is referring to the enormous changes in the world we see unfolding in the modern era, couched in symbolic language as prophecy always is.

For example, the "mountains flattened" and "seas dried up" can refer to the fact that human beings were once separated by oceans and mountain ranges. Now the airplane and satellite / internet communication renders all those former barriers irrelevant. We are now one world and one human race.

We really are in an entirely different kind of world than was ever known in the past. Baha'is believe these changes are part of a Divine plan for humanity and this planet. But that it doesn't happen by magic, but through our own efforts either in harmony with God's Will for this Age such as those who work for peace, universal education, equality of all human beings, political justice, religious coexistence and cooperation, or else fighting against that Will through hatred, division, anti-scientific fundamentalism, religious sectarianism, materialism and other destructive forces.

 

[AskTheFamily]

It's talking about a day though, a special day, time, while if it just referred to after death, it wouldn't make sense for it to be a special day because it would be everyday that happens...and saying "the day" it's obvious it's reminding of a day that the Quran talked about all the time. And it says that day the unjust will try ransom with everyone on earth but he won't be able to.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Thanks for your post "Ask the family"!

There are at least two views on that verse you are concerned with! and both views have been readily available:

This passage is expounded two ways.

Some, referring the relative his, to the first antecedent, take the meaning to be, that no Jew or Christian shall die before he believes in Jesus: for they say, that when one of either of those religions is ready to breathe his last, and sees the angel of death before him, he shall then believe in that prophet as he ought, though his faith will not then be of any avail. ...

Others, taking the above-mentioned relative to refer to Jesus, suppose the intent of the passage to be, that all Jews and Christians in general shall have a right faith in that prophet before his death, that is, when he descends from heaven and returns into the world, where he is to kill Antichrist, and to establish the Mohammedan religion, and a most perfect tranquility and security on earth.1

1 Jallalo’ddin, Yahya, al Zamakhshari, and al Beidâwi. See the Prelim. Disc. Sect. IV.

r i.e., Against the Jews, for rejecting him; and against the Christians, for calling him GOD, and the son of GOD.2

2 Al Beidâwi.

.......................................

As Baha'is we generally do not favor literalist interpretations. I think the translation offered by Muhammad Asad is the one I prefer.. You apparently prefer the other.

Have a great day!

- Art

As I stated, the Quran talks about people dying WHILE disbelievers, it's not like people see the Angel of death right before they die and believe. I know some people interpreted that way, but 1. It's absurd. 2. It goes against other verses showing people die while disbelievers.

 

[Arthra]

You Baha'is believe in the Qur'an, and you don't even call the religion properly, as if you never read the Qur'an, you should call it "Islam"

Thanks for your post Mumin... Yes I use the term "Islam" but I was quoting. Sorry I apologize..

- Art

 

[Arthra]

As I stated, the Quran talks about people dying WHILE disbelievers, it's not like people see the Angel of death right before they die and believe. I know some people interpreted that way, but 1. It's absurd. 2. It goes against other verses showing people die while disbelievers.

Yes.. we know "some people interpreted it that way..." and you are entitled to your belief.

At long last.

Light upon light wrote:

"We really are in an entirely different kind of world than was ever known in the past. Baha'is believe these changes are part of a Divine plan for humanity and this planet. But that it doesn't happen by magic, but through our own efforts either in harmony with God's Will for this Age such as those who work for peace, universal education, equality of all human beings, political justice, religious coexistence and cooperation, or else fighting against that Will through hatred, division, anti-scientific fundamentalism, religious sectarianism, materialism and other destructive forces."

Well written!

- Art

 

[Niblo]

Paul thanks for your detailed responses...

In our view the Bab Siyyid Ali Muhammad fulfilled the prophecy of the return of the Spirit of Christ.. An examination of His relatively brief ministry has parallels to the life of Christ

Art

Hello Art,

Please explain what you mean by the above; with emphasis on the ‘Spirit of Christ’.

Talk of ‘occultation’ leaves me cold. The notion makes no sense to me.

As you know, the Twelvers consider their Imams to be infallible. No matter what the Imam does he can never be held accountable, and can never be in error. He has knowledge no one else can possess. He commits no act of disobedience, and therefore must be obeyed without question. This is very handy for current Twelver leaders who claim to speak on behalf of the ‘Hidden’ Imam. If he must be obeyed then so must they!

Very best regards,

Paul

 

[Arthra]

Hello Art,

Please explain what you mean by the above; with emphasis on the ‘Spirit of Christ’.

Talk of ‘occultation’ leaves me cold. The notion makes no sense to me.

As you know, the Twelvers consider their Imams to be infallible. No matter what the Imam does he can never be held accountable, and can never be in error. He has knowledge no one else can possess. He commits no act of disobedience, and therefore must be obeyed without question. This is very handy for current Twelver leaders who claim to speak on behalf of the ‘Hidden’ Imam. If he must be obeyed then so must they!

Very best regards,

Paul

Paul,

Thanks for your post!

Yes... My intent was to share how we Baha'is view the prophecies.. that is, as historical movements that were inspired by prophecies... Both religions Christianity and Islam as well as Judaism share in varying degrees a messianic expectation...so the early nineteenth century in the West and in the Middle East there were parallel messianic movements.

In Iran/Iraq there was an expectation of the Mahdi..and for Shiahs more specifically this meant a return of the Twelfth Imam..as the Mahdi and Qa'im (He who would arise) and the return of Christ. For many this return was to have very literal physical signs..for the more mystical traditions this meant a spiritual or mystical revival.

The parallel in the West.was the Millerite movement that was mostly visible in the Eastern US with the expectation Christ would return and descend from the literal clouds in the sky etc.

Here's a statement from Abdul-Baha re. the Spirit of Christ:

THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST

The body is composed, in truth, of corporeal elements and every composition is necessarily subject to decomposition; but the spirit is an essence, simple, pure, spiritual, eternal, perpetual and divine. He who seeketh Christ from the point of view of His body hath, in truth, debased Him and hath gone astray from Him; but he who seeketh Christ from the point of view of His Spirit will grow from day to day in joy, attraction, zeal, proximity, perception and vision.

Thou hast then to seek the Spirit of Christ in this marvelous day. The heaven whither Christ ascended is not an infinite space. His heaven is much rather the kingdom of His Lord, the Munificent. As He said, "The Son of Man is in heaven." It is known then that His heaven is beyond the boundaries that surround existence and that He is elevated for the people who adore.

Pray God to ascend to this heaven, to taste of its food -- and know thou that the people have not understood to this day the mystery of the Holy Scriptures. They believe that Christ was deprived of His heaven when He was in this world, that He had fallen from the heights of His elevation and that later He ascended to this elevated pinnacle -- that is to say, towards the heaven which doth not exist, for there is only space. They expect that He will descend from this heaven seated upon a cloud. They believe that there is in the heavens a cloud upon which He will be seated and by which He will descend; while, in reality, the clouds are vapors which rise from the earth and which do not descend from the heavens. The cloud mentioned in the Holy Scriptures is the human body, because it is a veil for them, like a cloud, which prevents them from seeing the Sun of Truth which is shining in the horizon of Christ.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 388)

Baha'is view the above messianic movements as pointing to the announcement by Siyyid Ali Muhammad on May 23, 1844 in Shiraz as the Return. In the beginning some believed the Bab was simply claiming to be a Gate for the twelfth Imam that had been "hidden" or occulted for a thousand years since his disappearance around 260 AH. Later it became clear that the Bab claimed to be the Promised One...the Qa'im ... the Mahdi.

Now we Baha'is while acknowledging the above prophecies do not take them literally and we feel this literal view has beena stumbling block for many.

Generally Baha'is do accept the Shiah view of the history of early Islam..that the true successors to Islam after the passing of Prophet Muhammad were His cousin Ali ibn abi Talib and his descendents ...the Imams.. were the rightful successors ...rather than the Umayyad Caliphate. We don't accept all the views of Shiahs regarding the Imams or the views re. the Twelfth Imam that were miraculous...We acknowledge the prophecies.

Best wishes to you Paul!

- Art