Questions about the Baha'i

[Supreme]

Paul,

Thanks for your post!

Yes... My intent was to share how we Baha'is view the prophecies.. that is, as historical movements that were inspired by prophecies... Both religions Christianity and Islam as well as Judaism share in varying degrees a messianic expectation...so the early nineteenth century in the West and in the Middle East there were parallel messianic movements.

In Iran/Iraq there was an expectation of the Mahdi..and for Shiahs more specifically this meant a return of the Twelfth Imam..as the Mahdi and Qa'im (He who would arise) and the return of Christ. For many this return was to have very literal physical signs..for the more mystical traditions this meant a spiritual or mystical revival.

The parallel in the West.was the Millerite movement that was mostly visible in the Eastern US with the expectation Christ would return and descend from the literal clouds in the sky etc.

Here's a statement from Abdul-Baha re. the Spirit of Christ:

THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST

The body is composed, in truth, of corporeal elements and every composition is necessarily subject to decomposition; but the spirit is an essence, simple, pure, spiritual, eternal, perpetual and divine. He who seeketh Christ from the point of view of His body hath, in truth, debased Him and hath gone astray from Him; but he who seeketh Christ from the point of view of His Spirit will grow from day to day in joy, attraction, zeal, proximity, perception and vision.

Thou hast then to seek the Spirit of Christ in this marvelous day. The heaven whither Christ ascended is not an infinite space. His heaven is much rather the kingdom of His Lord, the Munificent. As He said, "The Son of Man is in heaven." It is known then that His heaven is beyond the boundaries that surround existence and that He is elevated for the people who adore.

Pray God to ascend to this heaven, to taste of its food -- and know thou that the people have not understood to this day the mystery of the Holy Scriptures. They believe that Christ was deprived of His heaven when He was in this world, that He had fallen from the heights of His elevation and that later He ascended to this elevated pinnacle -- that is to say, towards the heaven which doth not exist, for there is only space. They expect that He will descend from this heaven seated upon a cloud. They believe that there is in the heavens a cloud upon which He will be seated and by which He will descend; while, in reality, the clouds are vapors which rise from the earth and which do not descend from the heavens. The cloud mentioned in the Holy Scriptures is the human body, because it is a veil for them, like a cloud, which prevents them from seeing the Sun of Truth which is shining in the horizon of Christ.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 388)

Baha'is view the above messianic movements as pointing to the announcement by Siyyid Ali Muhammad on May 23, 1844 in Shiraz as the Return. In the beginning some believed the Bab was simply claiming to be a Gate for the twelfth Imam that had been "hidden" or occulted for a thousand years since his disappearance around 260 AH. Later it became clear that the Bab claimed to be the Promised One...the Qa'im ... the Mahdi.

Now we Baha'is while acknowledging the above prophecies do not take them literally and we feel this literal view has beena stumbling block for many.

Generally Baha'is do accept the Shiah view of the history of early Islam..that the true successors to Islam after the passing of Prophet Muhammad were His cousin Ali ibn abi Talib and his descendents ...the Imams.. were the rightful successors ...rather than the Umayyad Caliphate. We don't accept all the views of Shiahs regarding the Imams or the views re. the Twelfth Imam that were miraculous...We acknowledge the prophecies.

Best wishes to you Paul!

- Art

Do Bahais have anything in common with Sunnis that they don't with Shias?

 

[Arthra]

Do Bahais have anything in common with Sunnis that they don't with Shias?

Historically.. I would say the faith arose out of Shiah areas of Iran and Iraq...so many of the references in our history are relating to Shiahs and there was probably more overt persecution by Shiah authorities. There were comparatively less persecution from Sunnis.

Today there are Fatwas against the Baha'i Faith from Sunni institutions and the Faith is banned in Iran.

Also see:

The Bahá'ís: The Current Situation

and

The Bahá'ís: History of the Persecution of the Bahá?ís of Egypt

When Baha'u'llah was in exile He was in contact with a school of Sufis in the mountains of Kurdistan and revealed The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Seven Valleys And the Four Valleys

which was patterned after Attar's "Conference of the Birds"..also while in Baghdad the governor was on fairly good terms with Baha'u'llah...so historically there have been fairly good relations with Sunnis in spite of more recent Fatwas.

Baha'is see themselves as an independent religion with it's own scriptures which do reference Biblical and Quranic notes. The Faith also has it's own sites of pilgrimage and Holy Days..our own calendar. Administratively it is democratic and independent. It also has it's own laws and ordinances which are based largely on revealed texts and authorized interpretations.

 

[Niblo]

Paul,

Thanks for your post!

Hello Art,

Thank you very much for that clarification.

The endless debate (argument) between Shia and Sunni regarding caliphate v. imamate creates mixed feeling in me, since my Muslim family are descendants of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) through Imam Ali and Fāṭimah bint Muḥammad by their son Hasan; by his son Abdullah; his son Idrīs ibn ‘Abdallāh, of Morocco; and (eventually) Abu Bakr al-Alami al-Idrissi; and so on.

I wonder by what twists and turns a kid born of a Welsh Baptist family in South Wales in 1945 came to be sitting at this particular desk writing, able to write these particular words? Can't fathom it.

One of my dearest wishes is one day to sit at the feet of these amazing people (grandparents to three of my grandchildren, after all!) and to ask them what really went on in their lives.

Have a great weekend.

Paul.

 

[Mumin]

-

 

[light upon light]

The Qur'an says “for you is your religion, and for me is my religion”, but Baha'is don't apply it on us. Then it's a matter of defense. because they quote verses and deliberately try to distort/corrupt them. While in fact the verses reject what they say.

Hi Mumin!

Not sure if you are aware that Baha'is are deeply persecuted in many Islamic countries. This provides a useful overview:

Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regardless of differences in beliefs, it is simply wrong for governments to persecute religious minorities. Freedom of conscience is the only acceptable policy.

 

[smaneck]

Sorry, to take so long to get back to you, Paul. I was wrapped up in end of semester tasks.

It is necessary to clarify their use of the word ‘prophet’; an alien word when applied to the Arabic language; and especially so when it is used within the context of Islam. The correct words to use when applying the term ‘prophet’ to the Noble Qur’an are ‘Nabī’ and ‘Rasūl’.

In the Islamic context, a Nabī (‘Prophet’) is a man sent by Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) to provide guidance to humankind; but who is not given scripture. A Rasūl (‘Messenger’) is also charge with providing guidance, but he is given scripture. All Rasūl are considered to be Nabī; but not all Nabī were Rasūl

I'm with you up until the last statement. I know of no Qur'anic basis for insisting that all Rasul are Nabi. It seems to me that this a human interpretation. Of course, Muhammad was both, but that doesn't mean this is true for all of them.

 

[smaneck]

Imam Ghazali was very well aware that if one relies on the words of a given revelation alone, then many possibilities of interpretation may exist; and that some these may seriously undermine the purpose of that revelation. He insisted that any interpretation must be measured against how it was understood in the Islamic community.

Much as I love al-Ghazali, I have to admit that the main gist of his writings were to refute Shi'ite claims. Shi'ites do not accept ijma or consensus as a valid source of divine authority. Baha'is would agree with them on this point. Had the consensus of the community been correct they would not have ignored the Prophet's wish that Ali should succeed him. Nor would Husayn's blood been shed on the plain of Karbila. Indeed, if ijma actually worked, how is it the Jews denied Christ or the Christians Muhammad? Isn't it the case the consensus of the 'ulama failed to recognized their Promised One when he appeared?

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyya (sorry Susan!) said of the Ashʿarīs:

‘The scholars are the helpers of the religious sciences, and the Ashʿarīs are the helpers of the fundamentals of the religion.’
(Al-Fatawa, Vol. 4).

You realize that Shi'ites are Mutazalites? Imam Jafar As-Sadiq was a great Mutazalite scholar.

For over a thousand years the Muslims have held to the conviction that Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is the last of the Rasūl and of the Nabī, and they have done so in complete accord with the scholars of Islam.

Admittedly for good reason. Following Muhammad's passing every tribal shaman in Arabia was claiming prophethood. Had they not believed there would be no more Prophets after Muhammad Islam would likely have fragmented endlessly while still in the cradle. But to deny God's continuing revelation, it seems to me, is to fly in the face of the very essence of the Qur'an.

 

[smaneck]

You Baha'is believe in the Qur'an, and you don't even call the religion properly, as if you never read the Qur'an, you should call it "Islam"

It's a quote, Mumin.

 

[smaneck]

Do Bahais have anything in common with Sunnis that they don't with Shias?

I don't know about being more Sunni, but there are some Shi'ite practices we would reject. Once is the practice of temporary marriage. Baha'is are strictly monogamous so that would be out of the question. Second, we reject the treatment of religious minorities as najes or unclean. Baha'u'llah insists:

"God hath, likewise, as a bounty from His presence, abolished the concept of "uncleanness", whereby divers things and peoples have been held to be impure. He, of a certainty, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Generous. Verily, all created things were immersed in the sea of purification when, on that first day of Ridván, (April 21) We shed upon the whole of creation the splendours of Our most excellent Names and Our most exalted Attributes. This, verily, is a token of My loving providence, which hath encompassed all the worlds. Consort ye then with the followers of all religions, and proclaim ye the Cause of your Lord, the Most Compassionate; this is the very crown of deeds, if ye be of them who understand."

There is one other thing about which we have strong disagreements with the Shi'ites. Shi'ites believe they should follow blindly follow the rulings of whoever they choose as their mujtahid (Ayatollah.) Baha'is believe that all people must independently seek the truth for themselves. We do not believe clerics have the right to make authoritative interpretations.

 

[Niblo]

Sorry, to take so long to get back to you, Paul. I was wrapped up in end of semester tasks.

Hello Susan.

Whew! That’s a relief. An uncle of mine once assured me that academics don’t do real work - ‘semester tasks’ and such. Indeed, it is the consensus among us Valley Folk that teachers - especially Professors - do nothing all day except drink tea and nibble seedcake, nodding sagely as they do. This being the case I was bound to feel concerned that you might be ill. Good to have you back (run out of tea, perhaps?).

Over the past twelve years or so I’ve made it my business to learn as much as I can about Islam; and to do so by reading as many original works as I could manage to get my paws on (rather than logging onto web sites with a pair of scissors and a pot of glue). The advantage of this method is that I get to see what the various scholars actually said concerning stuff, as opposed to what they are alleged to have said. The disadvantage is that my pace of learning is constrained by the requirements of everyday life. I’ve compensated by focusing almost exclusively on Sunni works. I have very few Shiite works, and none at all of Imam Jafar As-Sadiq. Perhaps I ought to rectify this.

I’ve very fond of Imam ʿAlī (ʿalayhi as-salām), and have the utmost respect for him. It doesn’t matter to me that he was the ‘first Imam of the Shia’, or the ‘fourth Caliph of the Sunni’. What matters is that he was ʿAlī ibn Abī Ṭālib; a scholar and a leader; whose example (in my opinion) has not been followed - at least in its entirety - by any Islamic leader after him; and certainly by no leader of today.

Anyway, that’s me done for the time being. My wife is expecting me to mow the grass!

You have a great day now.

Paul

 

[smaneck]

Good to have you back (run out of tea, perhaps?).

My tea is sitting right beside me and someone else is cutting my grass. But if I don't get working on my end-of-semester report I won't have a very pleasant meeting with the Dean tomorrow.

 

[dlamberth]

But to deny God's continuing revelation, it seems to me, is to fly in the face of the very essence of the Qur'an.

I'm enjoying this conversation. Thanks.

I think the above quote from smaneck would be even more accurate if the words "the Qur'an" were replaced with the word "God or Allah".

.

 

[Niblo]

My tea is sitting right beside me and someone else is cutting my grass. But if I don't get working on my end-of-semester report I won't have a very pleasant meeting with the Dean tomorrow.

Go to it, kiddo!

 

[smaneck]

I'm enjoying this conversation. Thanks.

I think the above quote from smaneck would be even more accurate if the words "the Qur'an" were replaced with the word "God or Allah".

.

I said Qur'an because there are so many verses which condemn those who insist there aren't going to be any more prophets. To take a single verse and use it to negate the rest of the Qur'an just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[dlamberth]

I said Qur'an because there are so many verses which condemn those who insist there aren't going to be any more prophets. To take a single verse and use it to negate the rest of the Qur'an just doesn't make sense to me.

An essence of God is that He Creates. That's what God does. I see Continuing Revelation as an aspect of that Creating force that is God's nature. From there I don't need to jump very far to come to the conclusion that to deny God's Continuing Revelation is to deny the very essence of God and His Creating nature.

We look at Holy text for understanding, but is that the same as looking towards God for understanding? I keep asking myself that question as I watch the disagreements over Holy Text. In the end, I tend to align myself with those who say that Nature is the ONLY Holy Text directly written directly by the hand of God. Being in nature together is often a place of unity. In the mean time, there will be disagreements and even wars over that single verse that you reference. And that doesn't make any sense to me.
.

 

[smaneck]

An essence of God is that He Creates. That's what God does. I see Continuing Revelation as an aspect of that Creating force that is God's nature. From there I don't need to jump very far to come to the conclusion that to deny God's Continuing Revelation is to deny the very essence of God and His Creating nature.

We look at Holy text for understanding, but is that the same as looking towards God for understanding?
.

Personally I don't believe God Essence is knowable. What we know is what He chooses to reveal to us. For that reason we have to focus on His Revelation. What needs to be kept in mind is that every Revelation is in accordance with our own capacity not His infinite Being.

 

[dlamberth]

Personally I don't believe God Essence is knowable. What we know is what He chooses to reveal to us. For that reason we have to focus on His Revelation. What needs to be kept in mind is that every Revelation is in accordance with our own capacity not His infinite Being.

Which goes to the heart of why for the most part I have rejected those religions who depend upon words from books for their religion. I don't believe that revelation through words in book is the only way to know God. It can help. But eventually it seems to me that if that kind of revelation is the only way used for knowing God, that trajectory is going to limit ones awareness of God and the reality of God in their life. And in the end, all we do is argue over what has been revealed and by whom and how. Where this takes me is that I see revelation as the study about God but I'm more interested in the study of God.


.

 

[light upon light]

In the end, I tend to align myself with those who say that Nature is the ONLY Holy Text directly written directly by the hand of God. Being in nature together is often a place of unity.
.

Baha'u'llah would agree with you that it is indeed a Holy Text written by God:

"Say: Nature in its essence is the embodiment of My Name, the Maker, the Creator. Its manifestations are diversified by varying causes, and in this diversity there are signs for men of discernment. Nature is God’s Will and is its expression in and through the contingent world. It is a dispensation of Providence ordained by the Ordainer, the All-Wise. Were anyone to affirm that it is the Will of God as manifested in the world of being, no one should question this assertion. It is endowed with a power whose reality men of learning fail to grasp. Indeed a man of insight can perceive naught therein save the effulgent splendour of Our Name, the Creator. "

- Baha'u'llah, Lawh-i-Hikmat

 

[smaneck]

Which goes to the heart of why for the most part I have rejected those religions who depend upon words from books for their religion. I don't believe that revelation through words in book is the only way to know God.

Ultimately I don't think it is the words of a book either, I think it is the Persons of the Manifestations of God. That's why John's Gospel speaks of Jesus as the Word. Even the creative function of God is expressed through His Manifestations. The text is simply the closest we can get to the Manifestation when He is no longer physically with us.

 

[Mumin]

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