questions about the apocrypha

[nyj]

But the Calvinist view of OSAS makes sense and is reconcilable with what the Catholic Church teaches:

Calvinists teach that every believer who's ultimately predestined to go to heaven (Rom 8:29-30, Eph 1:5,11) will remain in Christ. If they fall away, they'll eventually return back to God and remain in Christ. However, if a 'believer' falls away and never returns to God, then he or she was never a Christian to begin with (this is what they teach!) And so in this sense, those who ultimately enter heaven are 'once saved, always saved', but nobody knows who is saved, except God. Nor should we go around saying who is or isn't saved since we aren't God.

But from a Calvinist perspective, they basically say the only assurance of this salvation is dependant upon the Christian remaining in Christ, which is similar to what Catholics teach.

I'm not sure that that really makes "sense", at least not to me anyways. It's a logical fallacy "No True Scotsman"*. It might be akin to Catholic theology only in the sense that we don't know who is or isn't saved, but it's definitely not reconcilable with Catholic theology.

*Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Press and Journal and seeing an article about how the 'Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again'. Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing". The next day he sits down to read his Press and Journal again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing".

 

[Benedicta00]

Kimber,

The main difference in the Catholic theology and the Protestant theology is that justification and salvation are not one in the same.

We are always, always justified once we become Christians to go to heaven, and that can never ever never be taken away from us, we can not lose justification but we can lose salvation if we willingly choose to opt for a life of mortal sin and remain unrepentant unto death.

God does not send us to hell, we send ourselves because we have chosen it over God so we have a reasonable assurance that we will go to heaven as along as we do not fall into unrepentant mortal sin unto death.

 

[Hoonbaba]

I'm not sure that that really makes "sense", at least not to me anyways. It's a logical fallacy "No True Scotsman". It might be akin to Catholic theology only in the sense that we don't know who is or isn't saved, but it's definitely not reconcilable with Catholic theology.

I guess I was using the wrong word when I said 'reconcilable'. I was thinking more along the lines of making the jump from Calvinist to Catholic.

-Jason

 

[Benedicta00]

Actually you can "reconcile" Calvinism to Catholicism in a way.

The Catholic Church does have a doctrine of predestination that is infallibly taught. A Calvin follower would not have too much to reconcile once he learns and understands that Catholic doctrine properly.

 

[kimber1]

okay well, it' s a brand new day!! i was getting a little overwhelmed yesterday adn after starting a "to-do" in the chatbox (which i SO did not mean to do) with my questions, i've got a basic one for you.

what would i expect if i attended a church service at a Catholic church? I mean, i don't know any of the prayers adn when you kneel(you do do that right? Man, please forgive my ignorance here )

basically, what is a serivce like there? thanks y'all!!

 

[St-Irénée]

Actually you can "reconcile" Calvinism to Catholicism in a way.

The Catholic Church does have a doctrine of predestination that is infallibly taught. A Calvin follower would not have too much to reconcile once he learns and understands that Catholic doctrine properly.

Maybe this can help:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/grace_al.htm

 

[KennySe]

what would i expect if i attended a church service at a Catholic church? I mean, i don't know any of the prayers adn when you kneel(you do do that right? Man, please forgive my ignorance here )

basically, what is a serivce like there? thanks y'all!!

Hello, kimber.

The Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

I'm going to give you some basic info on the Catholic Mass.

***

No one there will know that you aren't Catholic. So you can relax about that. Just walk on in and say hi to those who say hi to you.
Get there about 15 minutes before the Mass is scheduled to begin, so that you can get a good parking place and so that you can enter non-chalantly.

The service lasts typically between 45 minutes and one hour, depending on how long the sermon portion (we call it "Homily") lasts. Plan for a solid hour.

There may be some free pamplets in the large "foyer"/entrance area. Pick up some as you wish... or pick them up AFTER Mass.

At the doors to the church part of the building will be little "bowls" screwed to the walls. These hold Holy Water, which Catholics dip their fingers in and then do the sign of the cross as they enter, and again when they exit. You don't need to do this, but I figure you should know that these "things" are near the doors and what they are about.
You can ignore them and no one will know you're not Catholic; many Catholics (unfortunately, in my opinion) ignore them.

The further back you sit, the more crowded the seating; Catholics are funny that way. Sit halfway to the front, along a side or anywhere really.

You can kneel and pray before the Mass begins, but I recommend for you, for the first time, that you simply sit and check out the literature that is in your pew (the sitting rows are called pews) Often left on the seats, and /or in the back of the pew where you sit are TWO different books.

One may be a book of songs. Don't worry about this one right now.
You want to look at the missalette. It's what the Mass service will be: including everything that will be said: all the prayers.
During the Mass, there will be three Scripture Readings: the first will be from the Old Testament, the second will be from the New Testament, and the third will be from one of the Gospel accounts of Jesus.
As you look through the Missalette, the 3 readings for 2 or more months of Masses are grouped together toward the back of the book.

What this means is: you can follow along (and the Majority do) with the Mass while reading the Missalette. But as the Mass begins on page 1 or 2 in the booklet, when it comes time for the readings, you have to "hunt for them" around page 200. So, before Mass, I want you to get a little acquanted with the booklet.

After the 3 readings, the Priest or a deacon will give a sermon of about 10 minutes. When that ends, you go back to the missalette for the Nicene Creed around page 10.

*********

Okay, I've gotten ahead of myself.

I have you sitting in the pew, checking out the missalette.

Let's get to the Mass itself.

In my next post.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

KennySe,

I'm on the edge of my seat and I already know what's next.

 

[KennySe]

Recap the above post:

Get there 15 minutes early, so you can park nearby and walk in casually.
Say hi to those who say hi.
No need to touch the Holy Water at the door to the Church part of the building.
Sit.
Pick up the missalette and find the 3 readings from the Bible.

(The readings are labelled: First Reading, Second Reading, Gospel.)

And now.. The Mass.


Mass begins with the ringing of a bell and all stand as the priest enters and proceeds up to the altar. Often, there is a song sung by all.
After the song, when the priest is on the altar (He's not actually ON the altar table, but the front, the "stage area" is called the altar), He says the Sign of the Cross.

You (plural) stand and follow along in the missalette for some minutes Then, everyone sits down. (This is the cue to find those Readings in the missalette.)

Some regularly-dressed person reads First and Second Readings.

Everyone stands up for the "third reading", The Gospel. It is the priest or a deacon who reads it. When he finishes, everyone sits down again.

The priest or deacon gives about a 10 minute sermon.

When it ends, open up the missalette, around page 10 to follow the rest of the Mass, beginning with the Nicene Creed.

Everyone will sit again (just follow the crowd ) and usually there is a song sung as these guys pass baskets around collecting envelopes and money from the people. If you want to put in some, but there is NO obligation. However, you want to feel that you are blending in more, have a folded $1 bill ready for this.

NOW things get really interesting You will see two or more people approach the altar carring stuff. These are the gifts, the bread and the wine. They hand these to the priest who takes them to the altar table.

He asks God to bless these gifts.

(I won't go through the whole step-by-step, since you'll be sitting there holding amissalette, and I am currently sitting HERE without one.)

Everyone will kneel for the "Eucharistic Prayer". You don't have to; you can sit, but be aware someone is knelling behind you so don't sit WAY back.

There are FOUR Eucharist Prayers. You must pay attention to WHAT are the priest's first words so you can know whaich of the four he is using. (They are all similar.) It is during the Eucxharistic Prayer, while the people are kneeling, that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When the Eucharistic Prayer is over, all stand and pray aloud the Lord's Prayer, the "Our Father". People might hold each others' hands for this, so don't freak out about this. After that, we shake hands with those near us, as a sign of peace.

Then it is back to the missalette and the "Lamb of God".

All sit.

You won't be going up to receive the Eucharist because you are not in full communion with the Catholic Church. Don't worry that this will give you away as a non-Catholic. A number of people don't go up to the altar. Just remain seated. (There may be a song sung at this point.) You can sing along. You can pray; you can thumb through the missalette. You can RELAX in the Lord. Be at peace.

Eventually, everyone will be back in their pews. Many will be kneeling from the time they had returned from the altar.

But when the priest sits, everybody sits.

When the priest stands, everybody stands.

He pronounces "This Mass is over, go in peace to love and serve the Lord." Another song is usually said as he proceeds out.

All the Catholics STORM out. In five minutes the place is rather empty.
You don't have to rush out; there's no fire.

You might want to walk out "last" so that you can do a little lingering in the foyer area, picking up some free literature in the foyer area, if available.

If anyone (and I doubt anyone will) aks you if you're new because they don't recognize you. Say simply, "I'm just visiting. This isn't my parish." (This does not mean that you are not Catholic. This indicates that you MAY be Catholic from another church, that you're from out of town. It's not exactly a lie because all you've said is that you are visiting, true... and you are not member of that particular Catholic church, true. But, by using the "catholic" word PARISH, you've blended in with the locals, which might make you feel more at ease.
( Don't wear a bikini to Mass, either. )

http://home.inreach.com/mtbearz/Mass.doc

 

[kimber1]

oh my, as if i wasn't intimidated enough already!! no offense honestly!!! it sounds beautiful actually! i clicked on that link while i was waiting your 2nd half and was like oh my, i have to walk up front? i have just a faint recollection of doing that in a Wesleyan church i think.
so basically the whole layout is printed out ahead of time fro you to read along with? i mean, does the priest not pick a certain topic and preach about that? and in so doing exlpain the scriptures in "layman's terms"?

oh and by the way thank you so mcuh for explaining that all in such detail!!

 

[Credo]

oh my, as if i wasn't intimidated enough already!! no offense honestly!!! it sounds beautiful actually! i clicked on that link while i was waiting your 2nd half and was like oh my, i have to walk up front? i have just a faint recollection of doing that in a Wesleyan church i think.

I'm going to ask for a little clarity here...what do you mean by walk up front?

so basically the whole layout is printed out ahead of time fro you to read along with? i mean, does the priest not pick a certain topic and preach about that? and in so doing exlpain the scriptures in "layman's terms"?

This is what the "homily" is. The readings from the Bible during the Liturgy of the Word will coincide with one another. The priest will apply the lessons from the readings to today's situations. Often, on special feast days, the priest will also tell a bit about the significance of the day. Hope this is helpful!

God Bless!

 

[Benedicta00]

oh my, as if i wasn't intimidated enough already!! no offense honestly!!! it sounds beautiful actually! i clicked on that link while i was waiting your 2nd half and was like oh my, i have to walk up front? i have just a faint recollection of doing that in a Wesleyan church i think.
so basically the whole layout is printed out ahead of time fro you to read along with? i mean, does the priest not pick a certain topic and preach about that? and in so doing exlpain the scriptures in "layman's terms"?

oh and by the way thank you so mcuh for explaining that all in such detail!!

The mass is divided into three parts, the liturgy of the word which are bible readings, and then there is a homily and the priest does preach about what he wants and then when have the consecration of the Eucharist which are the prayers over the gifts of bread and wine that become the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. after that, we walk up to receive the Eucharist and we pray in thanksgiving silently and then the mass ends.

There is a missal that keeps you up with what is going on and all the prayers and responses are in there.

 

[kimber1]

"walking up front" as in to partake in the Lord's supper or Eucharist(sp?). but i understand me not being Catholic i wouldn't be involved in that right?

 

[Credo]

"walking up front" as in to partake in the Lord's supper or Eucharist(sp?). but i understand me not being Catholic i wouldn't be involved in that right?

That's what I thought you meant, but I wasn't going to assume!

And, you're right. Since you are not in full union with the Catholic Church, you will not be allowed to partake of the Eucharist. When this happens, just sit as the others go forward. Many will kneel and reflect on our Lord's presence when they return. Feel free to do this as well.

 

[KennySe]

Kimber,

Peace be with you.

I posted that link if you wanted more detail. I shouldn't have posted it, though, as it may make you more apprehensive.

All you have to do is:

Get there 15/10 minutes early so you aren't "rushing".

Have a seat in a pew and check out the missalette.

Sit and stand by following what everybody else does.

Follow the Mass by reading along in the missalette.

Don't feel pressured to kneel at any time; sit instead if you wish.

Don't go up to receive the Eucharist.

Don't wear a bikini or any beach attire.

***************

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

Kimber1, on top of all the great infomation above check out these sites if you want even more infomation:

http://www.americancatholic.org/newsletters/cu/ac0889.asp
http://www.catholicity.com/maryfoundation/previewtapes.html (The one that says the mass explained)

 

[St-Irénée]

Kimber1:

Although not allowed to take Eucharist, you are allowed to go forward to the altar if you choose, for a blessing from the priest. When you approach him, have your arms crossed over you and that is the sign you will not receive (this is also practiced by Catholics who haven't gone to confession and therefore abstain by choice from Eucharist) the Eucharist but are there to have the priest give you a blessing. In that way, you may feel like more of a participant but this is an optional choice.

 

[Rising_Suns]

hey kimber,
I want to thank you for inpspiring me to create a new post that answers some of the more common questions people have about the Catholic faith.

http://www.christianforums.com/t53299

I hope that the thread helps you out. I try to be as clear, consise, and to-the-point as possible, so you don't have to read pages upon pages of explanations. LEt me know what you think. Thank you kimber and God bless you.

 

[Credo]

http://www.catholicity.com/maryfoundation/previewtapes.html (The one that says the mass explained)

The Mass Explained is AWESOME!!! I had no idea it was available for listening on-line now! The one called The Truth is just as great! Thanks, Aaron!

 

[artnalex]

Kimber1,
if you would like some free CD's and tapes on Catholicism then go to www.catholicity.com. It is a great site. I'll put a link below for the free tapes and CD's.

Click here for free tapes and CD's!