questions about the apocrypha

[kimber1]

oh y'all i am so lost right now!! those 2 links you gave me hoonbaba opened my eyes in ways i can't even say. so in all actuallitu it was certain Jews that didn't think the books were inspired that started the whole ball rolling.
something that really hit me was the last part of that one link that said
While Protestants are willing to accept the testimony of Hippo and Carthage (the councils they most commonly cite) for the canonicity of the New Testament deuterocanonicals, they are unwilling to accept the testimony of Hippo and Carthage for the canonicity of the Old Testament deuterocanonicals. Ironic indeed!
wow. i feel like i've been cheated in some way.

and well hmmmm

And if we never needed to ask forgiveness through a priest, then why did he give the apostles the power to forgive sins. In order for the apostles to forgive sins, someone would have to ask for their forgiveness, no?

you know, i'd never quite looked at it that way!

and about purgatory

Purgatory cleanses you of that sin

see, i guess, it's this concpt that i don't understand because i always thought that to believe in purgatory it in someway lessened what Christ accomplished by dying on the cross. can someone explain that to me adn also tell me where purgatory is taught? is that in one of the books that i don't have?
thanks everyone for being patient with me. i feel like i'm in a religious crisis right now. i'm just trying to understand adn wish there was a way to bridge the gap that exists between Protestants and Catholics but it goes so way back i'm wondering if it'll ever happen...

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

It's going to get a lot scarier kimber1. I know it did for me. As I began to learn what the Catholic Church taught one by one, I thought I was going to lose my mind.

I felt like I had been lied to all my life. I got mad at my "catholic" mom for not rasing me in the Church.

The beauty and truth in the Catholic Church is almost too much for our human minds to grasp.

Wait until you start learning about our Blessed Mother. Just wait. You're in my prayers.

>see Scott Hahn's book, Hail, Holy Queen: The Mother of God, in the Word of God<

 

[Spotty]

Kimber,

A thought I had:

All Protestants believe that in Heaven there is no sin and no desire to sin. However, right before death, most people still have that desire and nature, even after "acceptance" of Jesus and a lifetime of following Him. The question which should be asked is a logical one - how is it that we have no desire to sin after death?

The answer, as I see it, is a purgatorial state of being, where we are "purged" of sin and desire of self. Hence, afterward, we can enter Heaven's graces and experience eternity with no desire of self and no desire of sin, and hence...no commitance of sin.

-Spotty

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

...wish there was a way to bridge the gap that exists between Protestants and Catholics but it goes so way back i'm wondering if it'll ever happen...

I'm afraid I don't think it will

We can always pray

 

[Hoonbaba]

Purgatory

The most obvious biblical basis is from the deuterocanonical texts which is commonly called the Apocrypha. While I won’t get into much detail, 2 Maccabees records prayers for the ‘dead’. They died physically and apparently the Jews believed that ‘dead’ believers would have to be totally purged from their sinfulness prior to entering heaven. This idea is implied in Heb 12:23 with how men are ‘perfected’ (i.e. matured). Rev 21:27 says that nothing impure will enter heaven, which means believers undergo a sanctification process after this life but prior to entering heaven, however, that’s if a believer hasn’t been full sanctified here on earth. Some don’t even call purgatory a place, but rather a state of being.

It’s true that God forgives sins, but the purging process is what we call sanctification which is what we partake in on this earth. There is no question about whether Christians are to strive for holiness or not. Also, with sinning, there are consequences. King David was certainly forgiven of his sins but he had to bear the consequences of the sin (2 Sam 12:13-14). In many ways I wish I was aware of this teaching from the beginning of my Christian life. Somehow I was deceived into thinking that I’m eternally set for life just by accepting Christ and nothing more. While it does sound true, underneath it all, it really isn’t, because those who really follow Christ will remain in him and will not be cut off (John 15:1-5). And Calvinists would agree that God’s chosen consist of those who faithfully live out their lives for God. Mere intellectual belief in God is useless unless the faith is expressing itself through love (Gal 5:6, James 2:14). This is why confession is so important in the sanctification process.

Concerning Confession

It’s crucial to understand apostolic authority as the backdrop. Without it, none of this would really make sense. We know that Christ had authority (Matt 7:29). Then we see Jesus exercising his authority to forgive sins (Matt 9:6). Then Jesus imparts authority unto the 12 disciples (Mark 3:14-15). And again we see Jesus imparting authority to the disciples (Mark 6:7, Matt 10:1). Matt 16:19 and Matt 18:18 imply that Peter and the rest of the apostles were given authority to ‘loose and bind’. Then we see Jesus proclaiming the great commission where it’s possible that even more authority was granted (Matt 28:18). Equally noteworthy is the fact that the Church is doing Jesus’s work, as if Jesus passed on the Olympic torch to the Church. This would naturally include forgiving sins since Jesus granted such authority to the Church (John 20:22-23). Also, when a priest absolves sins, they’re essentially speaking as if God were speaking timeless truth (1 Pet 4:11).

Hope this helped =)

God bless!

-Jason

 

[Benedicta00]

Kimber,

To give you a suggestion so you do not get to over whelmed with all this information, begin a separate thread for each issue you wish to investigate about the Church.

For example, a thread about the scriptural evidence for purgatory and what our teachings are and then one on the sacrament of confession, etc. This way you will not skip around only getting bits a pieces of what the Church teaches on these subjects.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

I like to think of purgatory as tough love. God loves us deeply and forgives all those who ask. But sometimes we have to be punished for our own good.

If a parent never punishes a kid the kid will not grow and mature out of the bad behavior.


And like other’s have said those in purgatory are guaranteed haven they just must first be cleansed and make amends for those sins that god has forgiven them for.

 

[DJ B.K.]

I think I should put a link to this in the interdenominational dialogue forum. I believe it could open some minds. Is this a good or bad idea?

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

I think it might cause problems from anti-Catholics

 

[KennySe]

Kimber, hello.

The Peace of Christ be with you.

(In John 20:19 when Jesus appears in the locked room before the Apostles, the FIRST thing He says to them is "Peace be with you.")

That's the first point I wish to make to you: be at peace.
***

Take things slowly... patience is a virtue... there's no need to rush... don't run with scissors.

************************

In reading this thread now, from the beginning, for the first time, the second point I want to make to you is how sincerely grateful I am that you are asking Catholics to explain Catholic beliefs.

***

EDIT: I just erased a major rambling which would have caused some confusion to MANY readers.

 

[Rising_Suns]

i believe the best supporting evidence of purgatory in the bible is where it speaks of a "purifying fire" after death in this world before entering into heaven (forgive me but the exact where-abouts of the passage has evaded my memory).

 

[kimber1]

Kimber,

To give you a suggestion so you do not get to over whelmed with all this information, begin a separate thread for each issue you wish to investigate about the Church.

For example, a thread about the scriptural evidence for purgatory and what our teachings are and then one on the sacrament of confession, etc. This way you will not skip around only getting bits a pieces of what the Church teaches on these subjects.

that's a good idea, i just didn't want to dominate y'alls forum with questions but if ya'll will be patient with me i'll do it that way so i can understand better!

As I began to learn what the Catholic Church taught one by one, I thought I was going to lose my mind.

you hit the nail right on the head. i've been to several different denominations growing up but the main one has always been Baptist which is where i attend church now. and i know there seems to be major conflict between these 2 denominations but fro the life of me now i cna't figure out why it should be that way. i mean, we still have the same basic beliefs correct?

i recall a thread in IDD not too long ago where someone said they used to be Baptist but had since converted to Catholic but for the life of me now i cannot remember who that was. if that person should happen to catch this thread. a pm to me explaining how they went about that and what chnages were involved and stuff would be greatly appreciated.

some of you may have seen some prayer requests of mine in the past, but i've had a hard time getting my husband to come to church with me in the past. and as i sat here yesterday reading all this information i would tell him bits and pieces so he would know and understand that it's bothering me now. i told him i wanted to go buy a Bible that has those 7 books in it when i get the money. i'm not saying i'm ready to convert or anything at this point; there's so much still to learn not to mention years and years of "other teachings" to get past but i do appreciate the help y'all have adn hopefully will continue to give me!!

 

[Papist]

Wow, kimber! There's a lot to respond to here!

I suppose I think of Baptist churches as Christianity lite! I mean, they have the essentials, but not the full richness of Christian tradition and teaching that you get in the Catholic Church. The Catholic church has been going for 1900 odd years whereas the Baptist church is less than 500 years old.

I don't wish to 'diss' Baptist churches or Baptists. They are generally very active in bringing people to Christ in fresh, new ways. However, I have noticed that as people grow in their Christian faith, some are drawn to the richer expressions of faith found in the Catholic church.

I think one of the major failings of the Catholic church is that the spiritual practices that bring you closer to God and help you grow in Christ, can also become ritualised and lose their spirituality. Many Protestants see that and diagnose it correctly, but their solution, to disparage the practices, is wrong.

I believe that the teaching authority of the Catholic Church is there to protect people from ideas that will hold them back in their faith and from confusion about what Christ taught and what he didn't. You can see from these forums that there are many disagreements about what the Bible teaches ... well, the Catholic Church has been consistent in what it teaches from the start. That is not true of the various churches that appeared after Martin Luther.

I think it is appalling that Martin Luther removed books he disagreed with.

 

[nyj]

and about purgatory see, i guess, it's this concpt that i don't understand because i always thought that to believe in purgatory it in someway lessened what Christ accomplished by dying on the cross.

This article does a good job of giving a logical explanation of purgatory.

Purgatory For Everyone

It's a good read, IMO.

Appealing to God’s forgiveness does nothing to address the fact that many Christians are imperfect lovers of God (and others) at the time of their death. This is not to say that the experience of being forgiven does not change us. Indeed, gratitude for God’s free offer of forgiveness is a powerful incentive for the believer to love God in return. But forgiveness alone, especially on a legal model, does not change us in a subjective sense. Consider in this light the words of C. S. Lewis, an author whose views are usually endorsed enthusiastically by evangelical Protestants.

Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy”? Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first”? “It may hurt, you know.”—“Even so, sir.”​

Forgiveness alone does not eliminate unpleasant odors, and lack of condemnation does not clean up soiled clothes. Other remedies are necessary, and as Lewis suggests, they may involve pain.

 

[Hoonbaba]

see, i guess, it's this concpt that i don't understand because i always thought that to believe in purgatory it in someway lessened what Christ accomplished by dying on the cross.

Ok... this might take some time. this teaching involves salvation as understood as a process, not a one time 'believe in Jesus' event. Salvation is indeed a past event ('saved, Eph 2:8), yet it's a current reality ('being saved', 1 Cor 1:18) and a future hope/reality ('will be saved', Matthew 24:13).

Passages like 1 Thess 5:8 tell us that salvation is a 'hope'. Also see Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7. Apparently salvation is a hope, just as salvation appears in Revelation 12:10. Weird ain't it?

Basically, this involves what theologians call 'already/not yet'. But Philippians 2:12 sum up salvation (work out your salvation with fear and trembling).

Now, this is a the background to understanding salvation. While Jesus's death enables us entrance into the covenant (via baptism), Jesus expects us to be fully sanctified in Christ. In other words, we are all called to live apart from sin, which is really hard, yet possible.

Protestants generally say we can sin all we want but because of jesus's death we have a ticket to heaven. Yet scripture says: (NIV)

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:8-9)

Isn't this weird? John was directing this message to CHRISTIANS =)

Why would John say such a thing like confessing sins if they already did?? Clearly, salvation is understood as a process, so confession is to be done regularly not just once. God wants us to be humble =)

Something to think about, right??

God bless!

-Jason

 

[kimber1]

Protestants generally say we can sin all we want but because of jesus's death we have a ticket to heaven.

okay, like i said, i'm Baptist and have always been taught, once saved always saved but along with it have been taught that this isn't a ticket to sin. like that we can't just do whatever we want becuase we're saved but that we should everyday confess our sins through prayer. so is this saying that Catholics don't believe in once saved always saved?

 

[Hoonbaba]

Actually, I'm from a presbyterian background and so I'm not fully aware of what baptists are like. But I'm aware of some of the things they teach. Anyway, there's many former Catholics who turned 'Christian' and most of them (in my experience) are Baptists. They have a tendency to vehemently hate the Catholic Church (i.e. those who were former Catholics) and there's tons of garbage that Catholics have to put up with.

When my friends found out I was turning Catholic, they all flipped on me!! They looked at me like I became Atheist! IT's bizarre, but understandable since they generally don't consider Catholics as 'true' Christians. Yet I know too much to simply stay in a protestant sect, which I feel really uncomfortable in. I've been church hopping for too long and I'm just not 'compatible' in any of them. Catholicism is exactly what I want =)

-Jason

 

[Miss Shelby]

okay, like i said, i'm Baptist and have always been taught, once saved always saved but along with it have been taught that this isn't a ticket to sin. like that we can't just do whatever we want becuase we're saved but that we should everyday confess our sins through prayer. so is this saying that Catholics don't believe in once saved always saved?

Catholics do not adhere to Once saved always saved. We view salvation as a process, not an event. We co operate with the grace of God and have the hope of eternal life. We generally do not refer to people as saved or unsaved we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. If we remain in Him and abide in Him we are reasonably sure that we are being saved.

Michelle

 

[nyj]

okay, like i said, i'm Baptist and have always been taught, once saved always saved but along with it have been taught that this isn't a ticket to sin. like that we can't just do whatever we want becuase we're saved but that we should everyday confess our sins through prayer.

I agree. As Catholics, we should avoid making generalizations like the one Kimber1 had to respond to and correct. While I don't agree with the theology of OSAS (more on that to come further on in the post) I think it's safe to say that Christians, no matter what they think on this issue, wouldn't think it would be okay to run around and do anything sinful just because they think they're saved now.

so is this saying that Catholics don't believe in once saved always saved?

Yes, here is why:

1 John 5:16-17
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Catholics believe that one can commit sins which will lead to damnation. Here is a verse in the First Epistle of John (immediately above) which outlines this belief. Obviously when one sins, they will not immediately keel over dead, so John is speaking in a spiritual sense here. Also, see how John is refering to "his brother" so he's talking to Christians about other Christians. Therefore, if it is possible to commit a sin which leads to spiritual death (ie: damnation) then there is no way we can ever think our salvation is guaranteed.

Here is a good article on the subject from a Catholic standpoint: Assurance of Salvation - Catholic Answers dot Com

 

[Hoonbaba]

okay, like i said, i'm Baptist and have always been taught, once saved always saved but along with it have been taught that this isn't a ticket to sin. like that we can't just do whatever we want becuase we're saved but that we should everyday confess our sins through prayer. so is this saying that Catholics don't believe in once saved always saved?

The bible explicitly teaches that if we stray from God, we'll be cut off. Check out John 15:1-6. Not all Christians believe in OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved). But some Christians do believe in OSAS (depending on how it's defined).

But the Calvinist view of OSAS makes sense and is reconcilable with what the Catholic Church teaches:

Calvinists teach that every believer who's ultimately predestined to go to heaven (Rom 8:29-30, Eph 1:5,11) will remain in Christ. If they fall away, they'll eventually return back to God and remain in Christ. However, if a 'believer' falls away and never returns to God, then he or she was never a Christian to begin with (this is what they teach!) And so in this sense, those who ultimately enter heaven are 'once saved, always saved', but nobody knows who is saved, except God. Nor should we go around saying who is or isn't saved since we aren't God.

But from a Calvinist perspective, they basically say the only assurance of this salvation is dependant upon the Christian remaining in Christ, which is similar to what Catholics teach.

God bless!

-Jason