questions about the apocrypha

[kimber1]

ARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!! I am so frustrated!!! i see y'alls points and i see the Baptist points and i flip flop around not knowing anything for certain.

as a Baptist naturally i've been taught that "meeting in the clouds" is when Jesus comes to gather His church (believers) and thus begind the tribulation period. and i guess i hold that pretty dear to my heart so saying that no Bible believing Christian can believe in the rapture... eek, i admit that kind of struck a nerve with me but i'll move on.

it just seems to me that where y'all say there's no evidence, i see evidence adn i feel like i'm running in circles.

kenneyse--feel free to pm me what you were talking about in your post!

i'm just having an extremely frustrating day today. can't make heads or tails of anything anymore it seems!

 

[Skripper]

ARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!! I am so frustrated!!! i see y'alls points and i see the Baptist points and i flip flop around not knowing anything for certain.

as a Baptist naturally i've been taught that "meeting in the clouds" is when Jesus comes to gather His church (believers) and thus begind the tribulation period. and i guess i hold that pretty dear to my heart so saying that no Bible believing Christian can believe in the rapture... eek, i admit that kind of struck a nerve with me but i'll move on.

it just seems to me that where y'all say there's no evidence, i see evidence adn i feel like i'm running in circles.

kenneyse--feel free to pm me what you were talking about in your post!

i'm just having an extremely frustrating day today. can't make heads or tails of anything anymore it seems!

Yet doesn't rapture theology call for a second and "third" coming of Christ? Where's the scriptural evidence for a third coming?

 

[kimber1]

well see, i've always been taught that there's no 3rd coming. He meets us in the clouds and gathers us to Him. isn't there some scripture that says somehting about us assisting in the trib? man, i just htink i need to spend a month in the library or something!

that it's not an actual "coming" because he meets us in the clouds is wht i've always been taught. His actual coming is when He (i'm assuming) sets foot on earth and the tribulation begins.

 

[KennySe]

Hello, kimber.

I've sent you a PM.

The Peace of the Lord be with you,
Kenny

 

[Skripper]

well see, i've always been taught that there's no 3rd coming. He meets us in the clouds and gathers us to Him. isn't there some scripture that says somehting about us assisting in the trib? man, i just htink i need to spend a month in the library or something!

that it's not an actual "coming" because he meets us in the clouds is wht i've always been taught. His actual coming is when He (i'm assuming) sets foot on earth and the tribulation begins.

That's what I find problematic with rapture theology, that the "rapture" doesn't really count as a "coming" because Jesus doesn't "touch down" . . .

It seems more plausible that the "rapture" is the second, and final, coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[Hoonbaba]

well see, i've always been taught that there's no 3rd coming. He meets us in the clouds and gathers us to Him. isn't there some scripture that says somehting about us assisting in the trib? man, i just htink i need to spend a month in the library or something!

that it's not an actual "coming" because he meets us in the clouds is wht i've always been taught. His actual coming is when He (i'm assuming) sets foot on earth and the tribulation begins.

Hi Kimber,

I just thought I'd share a bit. There's tons of different Christians who believe all sorts of things about the last days. There's 4 major interpretations of Revelation (Futurist, Historicist, Preterist, Idealist). And within each of them, there's different positions within those particular positions.

Your view is known as the futurist view, which is heavily influenced by people like Tim Lahaye, Hal Lindsey, and company. So they generally teach that Revelation is yet to be fulfilled.

The Historicist view teaches that some of Revelation has been fulfilled, and that it's being fulfilled over time, and at some point Christ will come.

The Preterist view (my favorite) teaches that most (if not all) of Revelation has been fulfilled (particularly chapters 1-20) prior to 70 AD.

And the Idealist view also teaches that a good portion of Revelation has been fulfilled, but it has a strong emphasis on encouraging the believer moreso than some doomsday book. In other words, some view Revelation as a book that directly applies for now and eventually Christ will come.

I'd say I'm a mix between the Idealist position and the Preterist position. The futurist position, your view, is also known as dispensationalism, and many dispensationalists have TONS of different interpretations on all the specifics. Some say after the 'rapture' anyone who isn't Christian is doomed. Others teach the exact opposite. Some believe in a pretribulational rapture, others believe in a midtribulational rapture, and some more are post tribulational. In other words, they all have different views on when the rapture would happen.

I used to hold to the pretribulation position, until I came across more encouraging views on the end times. Then again, I don't even believe in a 'secret' rapture as most protestants claim. To my understanding a secret rapture is a 300 year old man made invention.

Anyway, I don't think it's important to know all the details, yet I do encourage a prayerful study on this

If you're interested in learning the preterist position, I'd be more than happy to explain it, because it ultimately drew me closer to the Catholic Church

-Jason

 

[kimber1]

okay folks. this is back to the original topic about the Apocrypha. I went to the library yesterday adn got a copy of it and i have to say......

WOW!!!!!!! i have been so mesmorized in particular in reading the Second book of Esdras. it blew me away!!! Ezra asked so many questions that i'm sure most people have thought themselves.

i do have some questions about certain parts though.

1. the angel that Ezra is speaking to keeps saying "I" as in that Ezra is actually talking to God and not the angel being called Uriel. who is it exactly that Ezra is tlaking to or is it God speaking through Uriel?

2. it mentions Behemoth and Leviathon when Ezra is recalling the story of creation. is this a reference to dinosaurs or exactly what are these 2 creatures referring to?

3. no bear with me here, the copy i have the verses numbers are kind of hard to read so i think i'm getting them right. in chapter 7 verse 28-44 it says something about after 400 years that Jesus dies again? i don't understand that.

4. in chapter 7 verse 61 it says the phrase "catch fire, blaze up and die out". so does this contradict eternal torment for non-believers?

5. okay, God(or Uriel) tells Ezra to write all things down adn after him and the 5 men are done it says that 94 books were written but 70 kept back only to share with the wise. what are these books? where are they or are they part of this book itself?

6. is the middle of this book describing the end times because it seems so similar to John's vision and Revelation?

7. is the end of the book talking more of the fall of Babylon kind of like i think it's Isaiah?

i don't know, after reading what i have so far it's becoming more clear to me why y'all don't believe in the rapture (which is the one thing i seem to have to most trouble letting go) but i'm closer to the understanding now that whether i'm actually here on earth during that time or not, i know God is going to take care of me. it's begignning to get clearer and i have to say it kind of scares me at the same time.

the thought that i could turn from what i once believed so true....

i have thought and thought and thought and prayed adn prayed and prayed and things are starting to make so much more sense than they used to and that terrifies me in some stupid way i can't even explain.

i can't remember who said this to me now but someone said that it seems as people mature as Christians they start seeking out the truth more adn end up at the Catholic church adn maybe that's what is happening here. i appreciate all of y'alls support and pm's to guide me along.

after reading what i have so far (i think i'm in Judith now) i am so apalled and angry that this has been kept from me adn wonder where i would be at in my walk with God right now had i known all this stuff all along.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Hi Kimber!

Thanks for sharing! But there's a fews I want to mention: Esdras is not considered scripture by the Catholic Church, while Judith is...LOL a bit confusing isn't it?

I'll clarify. There's a bunch of books which Protestants say are part of the 'apocrypha'. Yet within that group of books are 7 books which aren't called 'apocrypha' in the Catholic Church. So that means there's a few books which the Catholic Church considers apocryphal book.

Here's the 7 books that don't exist in protestant bibles:

Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Baruch as well as some additions to Daniel

Books like the 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, and some others aren't considered Scripture. Yet, some Eastern Orthodox traditions maintain that they are considered Scripture.

I'd personally stick with the Catholic Chuch when it comes to this stuff

As for the parallels in 2 Esdras and Revelation, there's a few clear discrepancies I've found but I don't fully remember where.

-Jason

 

[KennySe]

Hi, kimber,

I read your post HOURS ago, and have been trying to find the follwing book in my Catholic Bible. I finally found out why I COULDN'T; it's not in it.

I'll explain after I quote you.

okay folks. this is back to the original topic about the Apocrypha. I went to the library yesterday adn got a copy of it and i have to say......

WOW!!!!!!! i have been so mesmorized in particular in reading the Second book of Esdras. it blew me away!!! Ezra asked so many questions that i'm sure most people have thought themselves.

i do have some questions about certain parts though.

The Catholic Bible and Protestant Bibles have 1 Ezra (Esdras) and 2 Ezra (Nehemiah).

The confusion is that there are two more "Esdra" books: 3 Esdras and 4 Esdras.

If the Catholic and Protestant Bibles WERE to include these two aprocryphal books, they would be listed right after Esdras (1 Ezra) and Nehemiah (2 Ezra).. and the list of books would look like...

1 Ezra
2 Ezra
3 Ezra
4 Ezra

YOU were reading 4 Ezra, which is also called 2 Ezra.

And if you're confused now, and you ought to be because I am, here's a link that WILL help.http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/23.htm

And I quote part of that link.

1. The First Book of Esdras (also known as Third Esdras)

2. The Second Book of Esdras (also known as Fourth Esdras)

(snip)

Three of these fifteen books (I and II Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh) are not considered canonical by the Roman Catholic Church.

which is why your mentioning Ezra meeting Angel Uriel didn't ring any bells in my head, nor could I find that in my Bible.

************************************

On the plus side, I did find an interesting passage in Tobia (Tobit), where Tobia (Tobit) meets the angel Raphael.

Tobia 12:15-20
For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.

And when they had heard these things, they were troubled, and being seized with fear they fell upon the ground on their face.

And the angel said to them: Peace be to you, fear not.
For when I was with you, I was there by the will of God: bless ye him, and sing praises to him.
I seemed indeed to eat and to drink with you: but I use an invisible meat and drink, which cannot be seen by men.
It is time therefore that I return to him that sent me: but bless ye God, and publish all his wonderful works.

***

 

[kimber1]

And if you're confused now, and you ought to be because I am, here's a link that WILL help

lol, i went to that link. and have come to the conclusion that i will never understand this b/c in one link i'll find that the apocrypha WAS in the original OT and was used by the apostles and in another link i find quite the contrary. *kim bangs her head against the keyboard yet again!*

i did run across something in Ecclesiasticus last night that at the time gave me great comfort..

3:21-25 Do not pry into things too hard for you or examine what is beyond your reach. Meditate on the commandments you have been given;what the Lord keeps secret is no concern of yours. Do not busy yourself with matters that are beyond you; even what has been shown you is above man's grasp. Many have been led astray by their speculations and false conjectures have impaired their judgement.

now i don't know if this is in the Catholic BIble or not anymore but it made a lot of sense to me anyway.

it would just be so much easier if God would just tell me "okay, believe this, this, and this....take this with a grain of salt..."

more confusion sets in....

 

[KennySe]

The peace of Christ be with you, Kimber.

i did run across something in Ecclesiasticus last night that at the time gave me great comfort..

3:21-25 Do not pry into things too hard for you or examine what is beyond your reach. Meditate on the commandments you have been given;what the Lord keeps secret is no concern of yours. Do not busy yourself with matters that are beyond you; even what has been shown you is above man's grasp. Many have been led astray by their speculations and false conjectures have impaired their judgement.

now i don't know if this is in the Catholic BIble or not anymore but it made a lot of sense to me anyway.

Yes, it IS in the Catholic Bible.

Ecclesiasticus = Sirach
Apocalypse = Revelation

Here's an online Catholic Bible, "New American Bible" (NAB)
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/

it would just be so much easier if God would just tell me "okay, believe this, this, and this....take this with a grain of salt..."

Now, Kim.

Where would be the fun in that? A child must learns things without the Parent always leading by the hand. When the child stumbles, the Parent will be there to comfort.

and to paraphrase that scriptural quote above, don't bite off more than you can chew... or you'll choke.
Let's take things one step at a time. baby steps. Don't be concerned about algebra until we are firm in addition and subtraction first.

 

[Skripper]

Kimber,

it would just be so much easier if God would just tell me "okay, believe this, this, and this....take this with a grain of salt..."

You mean like if He would have come down to earth in the form of a man and literally walked among us? And then actually Personally founded one specific Church upon the earth? One Church with dogmatic and non-dogmatic teachings? And given this one Church of His, the one He Personally founded, the gift of infallibility in dogmatic teachings? A Church with the God-given authority to properly recognize the correct canon of Scripture, define it and declare it as such, and then properly interpret it?

What a great idea! Does such a Church exist?

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

...i don't know, after reading what i have so far it's becoming more clear to me why y'all don't believe in the rapture (which is the one thing i seem to have to most trouble letting go) but i'm closer to the understanding now that whether i'm actually here on earth during that time or not, i know God is going to take care of me. it's begignning to get clearer and i have to say it kind of scares me at the same time.

If you have Real Audio, listen to one of these two programs:

01/27/2003 Curing Rapture Fever [Listen] - [Download]

01/16/2002 "The Rapture Trap" [Listen] - [Download]

Or read this article:

http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=1705

Or get this book:

The Rapture Trap: A Catholic Response to "End Times" Fever

 

[Benedicta00]

Kimber,

Let me give you my rendition of the rapture;

God wins.

I need to be concerning myself with my own end times; I can't be worried about the final end chances are I will already have been called home before that even happens.

We all should be prepared because we can be called home any second and if we are then it won’t matter if we are called when Jesus comes at the second coming or when we go to meet him by ourselves.

 

[Rising_Suns]

The end times in revelation, in my opinion, is more personal than communal. It is talking to each of us, warning us that the end is near when we die and face judgement, not that the end is near for all generations of mankind. People don't understand this idea very well. They question the bible's authroity when it says the end is near, saying; "it's been almost 2,000 years and we have not seen the end times yet. how could it be coming soon?" It's a shame people find it very easy to be voluntarily ignorant when it comes to putting their faith into action.

 

[BAChristian]

Bump! Look at our little Kimber asking questions and whatnot...how cool...

The process started right around this time...ahhh, it's so nice to look back...

And look how she used the word, "y'alls"...

Wait, is "y'alls" even a word?

Ahhh nevermind, we accept you as you are Kimber!

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

wow great thread! TONS of info!!

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

Bump! Look at our little Kimber asking questions and whatnot...how cool...

The process started right around this time...ahhh, it's so nice to look back...

And look how she used the word, "y'alls"...

Wait, is "y'alls" even a word?

Ahhh nevermind, we accept you as you are Kimber!

nothing wrong with the word y'alls

 

[Christy4Christ]

bumping this up for Mark

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

deserives a bump to