Questions about Orthodoxy

[~Anastasia~]

Welcome to TAW!

We use sanctified bread and wine. The bread is leavened unlike the "crakers" of the Roman Catholic Church and the wine is usually watered down a bit.

Only usually? I thought it was necessary - the warm water, poured in the form of a cross into the chalice, with the words (something like) "the warmth of the Holy Spirit" and also symbolizing the water mixed with blood that flowed from Christ's pierced side? (And possibly some more symbolism I'm unaware of.)

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but do I have the right impression that all of these steps are always performed in the same way and for the same reasons?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Only usually? I thought it was necessary - the warm water, poured in the form of a cross into the chalice, with the words (something like) "the warmth of the Holy Spirit" and also symbolizing the water mixed with blood that flowed from Christ's pierced side? (And possibly some more symbolism I'm unaware of.)

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but do I have the right impression that all of these steps are always performed in the same way and for the same reasons?

yes, there must be warm water because Christ's Body and Blood is alive.

there is also water mingled at the beginning of Proskomedia symbolizing the water and blood from Christ's side.

 

[E.C.]

Only usually? I thought it was necessary - the warm water, poured in the form of a cross into the chalice, with the words (something like) "the warmth of the Holy Spirit" and also symbolizing the water mixed with blood that flowed from Christ's pierced side? (And possibly some more symbolism I'm unaware of.)

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but do I have the right impression that all of these steps are always performed in the same way and for the same reasons?

At my old parish we had a new priest who once forgot that he needed to water it down and was serving with an equally new acolyte who also forgot to warm the water! Thankfully it was a weekday service without a lot of people.

So, pretty much almost always watered down with warm water

 

[~Anastasia~]

I agree that if you want to know more - there's a LOT to know, a tremendous amount of theology and symbolism that goes into Holy Communion. I can't find a good/easy summary to post, and not sure how much info you're actually after.

The prayers are very instructive.

The bread will look something like this.

With each of those symbols having meaning - some are for those prayed for or honored at the same time. The central one with the IE XE NI KA is called the Lamb and is the actual part for communion, and the letters are short for Jesus Christ Victor.

The bread is leavened, because we receive the risen Christ. And you can't see it but the loaf bakes into two round loaves joined together to symbolize the two natures of Christ.

It's interesting - I don't know how it does that. I've only baked prosfora (the bread for the communion) a few times. I was given an old wooden seal, but I just used a normal cake pan and the recipe is pretty normal bread recipe - baked as a single ball of dough, having been stamped with the seal. But it still came out as two flat loaves joined. Maybe it's a matter of the volume of dough compared to the pan size, of the holes poked in the top, but it was a surprise to me.


You can see what that looks like on the cover of this book.

And we pray before, during, and after baking it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

yes, there must be warm water because Christ's Body and Blood is alive.

there is also water mingled at the beginning of Proskomedia symbolizing the water and blood from Christ's side.

Ah thank you Father!

I need to get hold of a copy of the Liturgy that includes everything that happens and re-read that.

 

[Tigger45]

I can't change it. My account is old.

Welcome back to CF! Click on this link> Contact Us and open a ticket requesting your faith status be changed and someone will be able to help you out.

 

[Anhelyna]

Coming back to Phosphora for a minute

I ~think~ I'm right saying that Greeks use one large Prosphora but Slavic use calls for 5 small ones.

 

[Senkaku]

@E.C. thank you...when you say sanctified, is there like a blessing of the bread and wine? if so, who does the blessing?

 

[Senkaku]

I agree that if you want to know more - there's a LOT to know, a tremendous amount of theology and symbolism that goes into Holy Communion. I can't find a good/easy summary to post, and not sure how much info you're actually after.

The prayers are very instructive.

The bread will look something like this.

View attachment 211713

With each of those symbols having meaning - some are for those prayed for or honored at the same time. The central one with the IE XE NI KA is called the Lamb and is the actual part for communion, and the letters are short for Jesus Christ Victor.

The bread is leavened, because we receive the risen Christ. And you can't see it but the loaf bakes into two round loaves joined together to symbolize the two natures of Christ.

It's interesting - I don't know how it does that. I've only baked prosfora (the bread for the communion) a few times. I was given an old wooden seal, but I just used a normal cake pan and the recipe is pretty normal bread recipe - baked as a single ball of dough, having been stamped with the seal. But it still came out as two flat loaves joined. Maybe it's a matter of the volume of dough compared to the pan size, of the holes poked in the top, but it was a surprise to me.


You can see what that looks like on the cover of this book.


View attachment 211714

And we pray before, during, and after baking it.

wow, that's really cool, I like that. There's a level of reverence even down to the baking of it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

wow, that's really cool, I like that. There's a level of reverence even down to the baking of it.

Yes. And after its blessed ... some is consecrated to the the Eucharist - that part is treated very carefully. But extra bread is blessed and given to everyone. When anything has been blessed, we treat it with a level of respect. It shouldn't be thrown away, or stepped on, for example. I suppose most would feel the same way about their Bibles, for example.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Coming back to Phosphora for a minute

I ~think~ I'm right saying that Greeks use one large Prosphora but Slavic use calls for 5 small ones.

Ah yes I know they use small ones. Thanks for mentioning. I wasn't sure how many or how it's used to get the necessary parts. I'm still figuring out ours.

 

[Senkaku]

How is the gift of tongues viewed in Orthodox settings? like, if I were to attend an Orthodox service and I was worshiping in tongues, would there be any repercussions? I mean, not giving a word in tongues, just praying in tongues or singing in tongues.

 

[~Anastasia~]

How is the gift of tongues viewed in Orthodox settings? like, if I were to attend an Orthodox service and I was worshiping in tongues, would there be any repercussions? I mean, not giving a word in tongues, just praying in tongues or singing in tongues.

Here is an "official" position put out by my own jurisdiction.

What then is the Orthodox Christian perspective on Glossolalia? The Orthodox Christian viewpoint on Glossolalia is based on St. Paul's words in chapter 14 of the same Epistle, "I thank God that I speak in strange tongues much more than any of you. But in Church worship I would rather speak five words that can be understood, in order to teach others, than speak thousands of words in strange tongues." (verses 18-19) In chapter 13 St. Paul says, "Set your hearts, then, on the more important gifts. Best of all, however, is the following way." Then St. Paul proceeds and shares with his readership the greatest gift of all - Love!

There is more discussion on it here. Speaking in Tongues: An Orthodox Perspective - Theology - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

And there is another article with some of the basics on the spirituality of it here. On the Gift of Speaking in Tongues: Ch. 15 from *The Hidden Man of the Heart*

The second article discusses the possibility of God's mercy being manifest in allowing this to happen in groups where learning the way of the heart has been lost.



However ... not everyone is going to be familiar with this. And as I'm sure you know, the enemy counterfeits many things, and it's not impossible that someone may be more familiar with that case. Things are normally done with a certain amount of order. If you were doing so very quietly, likely no one would pay any attention. If you were drawing attention to yourself or distracting others (not only by praying in tongues but by doing something else) it is very possible someone might have a quiet word with you. Or the grannies are kind of notorious for keeping order ... they could say something not quite so quietly.

With that said, Orthodox worship is not rigid. Many people coming in actually see it as being kind of chaotic, because there can be a lot going on.

 

[Senkaku]

Here is an "official" position put out by my own jurisdiction.

What then is the Orthodox Christian perspective on Glossolalia? The Orthodox Christian viewpoint on Glossolalia is based on St. Paul's words in chapter 14 of the same Epistle, "I thank God that I speak in strange tongues much more than any of you. But in Church worship I would rather speak five words that can be understood, in order to teach others, than speak thousands of words in strange tongues." (verses 18-19) In chapter 13 St. Paul says, "Set your hearts, then, on the more important gifts. Best of all, however, is the following way." Then St. Paul proceeds and shares with his readership the greatest gift of all - Love!

There is more discussion on it here. Speaking in Tongues: An Orthodox Perspective - Theology - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

And there is another article with some of the basics on the spirituality of it here. On the Gift of Speaking in Tongues: Ch. 15 from *The Hidden Man of the Heart*

The second article discusses the possibility of God's mercy being manifest in allowing this to happen in groups where learning the way of the heart has been lost.



However ... not everyone is going to be familiar with this. And as I'm sure you know, the enemy counterfeits many things, and it's not impossible that someone may be more familiar with that case. Things are normally done with a certain amount of order. If you were doing so very quietly, likely no one would pay any attention. If you were drawing attention to yourself or distracting others (not only by praying in tongues but by doing something else) it is very possible someone might have a quiet word with you. Or the grannies are kind of notorious for keeping order ... they could say something not quite so quietly.

With that said, Orthodox worship is not rigid. Many people coming in actually see it as being kind of chaotic, because there can be a lot going on.

hmm, I see. Thank you for the articles, will definitely check them out when I get a chance. Also, just wanted to give a quick thank you for all those who took their time to respond to me, I really appreciate it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

How is the gift of tongues viewed in Orthodox settings? like, if I were to attend an Orthodox service and I was worshiping in tongues, would there be any repercussions? I mean, not giving a word in tongues, just praying in tongues or singing in tongues.

tongues always serves a purpose. it's when you need to take the Gospel to a new land and there is a language barrier.

it is also always controlled by the one speaking.

 

[Dorothea]

Yes, what Fr. Matt said. The talking in tongues means being able to speak a foreign language different from their own...not a made up one, but a language from another country. This is what happened on Pentecost.

 

[Hermit76]

How is the gift of tongues viewed in Orthodox settings? like, if I were to attend an Orthodox service and I was worshiping in tongues, would there be any repercussions? I mean, not giving a word in tongues, just praying in tongues or singing in tongues.

The Orthodox Liturgy takes on a different, how should I say, organization than what you are used to. Where Pentecostalism relies on the spontaneous, Orthodoxy, though appearing chaotic, is very ritualistic. No one would have the opportunity to speak or sing outside of the Liturgical order. Some people may pray or venerate the icons all during the service, but this is a very private type of action. You would only know this by sight (the person walking up to the icon or praying using a prayer rope). So, in that sense there is no opportunity for tongues to occur as you have experienced it. Loud, spontaneous worship is really unknown outside of Evangelicalism.

 

[Senkaku]

I wanted to ask about Hesychasm. I recently stumbled upon this and have been researching it. They keep referring to a breathing pattern, but aren't explaining it. What is the breathing pattern used when engaged in this type of prayer? What are your opinions on Hesychasm?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I wanted to ask about Hesychasm. I recently stumbled upon this and have been researching it. They keep referring to a breathing pattern, but aren't explaining it. What is the breathing pattern used when engaged in this type of prayer? What are your opinions on Hesychasm?

It's not only a breathing pattern but that is a basic part of it.

The reason they don't explain it, I suspect, is that this is NOT a "do it yourself" practice. It absolutely requires guidance. To attempt it on your own is almost guaranteed to end in utter spiritual disaster.

I will say this. I had a background first in eastern meditation techniques and practices (not Christian). At a point of really deepening my faith (a sort of reconversion) as an adult, I happened upon a source on eBay that sold (very cheaply) so many classic Christian works - Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant - many with a mystical or interior focus. I bought boxes full. And started reading. And put these things into practice. With no guidance whatsoever - for the first quite some months I never went to any church at all - just my books and hours of prayer every day.

Stuff happens. Oh stuff definitely happens! And in the beginning, it was all of God. But as for me, I think I started to outgrow that window of protection He granted me. I knew I was supposed to seek out the Church. (Back then I'd never known of Orthodoxy specifically.)

I will just say that some of the results were very bad, and it took me years to overcome some of what I got tangled up and confused within myself, and when I did become Orthodox, my priest (upon hearing all of this) immediately advised me to get under the guidance of someone who could straighten it all out for me, which I have been for several years.

Many people are not so blessed with help, or more likely refuse it because one of the results is deep deception and spiritual pride. They are essentially beyond help because they refuse to receive it.

This may sound overly dramatized to you - of course you don't know me. It's something I used to never share at all, and rarely do now, though I have always kept the details private.

But this should only be learned from someone qualified to teach it, and under continued oversight. Even the desire, once a person understands all this, to proceed on their own is a sure sign that they shouldn't.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I realized I didn't answer really, but if you've been researching, you probably know.

The best way I know how to explain hesychasm (and others could probably do better) ... is that its goal is to have a stillness within self, a quieting of self. An openness to God, a connection with Him. And cultivating that part of ourself that more easily makes that connection.

It is primarily a monastic practice, because having to deal with the world, it is difficult or maybe impossible to develop while devoting enough of our attention to our jobs and other things we must do. (Some jobs would make it easier - very few of them though.)