Questions about orthodox eucharist

[Knee V]

On one side of the discussion:

We don't have room for chaplains on submarines. Each sub has a catholic EME to administer the eucharist. I don't know if the eucharist should be brought and stored on a sub (it may or may not be appropriate, but I'm not going to pretend to be qualified to make that call), but that is at least one instance where, if EME's are to be used at all, it's good to have EME's.

On another side of the discussion:

I tend to lean on the opposite side of Transubstantiation (lean, not stand, mind you), and for a reason. I see the Eucharist in light of the Incarnation and who Christ is and the ultimate and final state of the universe and the Church. Christ is fully God and fully man. His humanity is not swallowed up by His divinity, so every "part" of Christ (if it's appropriate to use that terminology) is fully God and fully man. In the New Heavens and the New Earth, all of creation will be filled with the presence of God. But that won't take away from the creation itself; it will still remain creation. And we will truly and fully be Christ's body, united to Him and each other in a very real way, yet we will not cease to be unique persons, and our individual personhood will not be swallowed up by Divinity.

It is in that light that I tend to see the Eucharist, with God's presence filling creation and, by the Incarnation, uniting Himself unto it.

That's not cold hard dogma for me, and I won't be let down when I die and God shows me that I was wrong.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What doctrine has better fruits?

I don't think that question has an answer. because in part, the fruits are based on who properly prepares for it, and since we do not judge the validity of the sacraments outside of the Church, then the better fruits are up for God's judgment, and not ours.

In catholic doctrine, the bread (the wine is only for the priest) is Christ; this doctrine focuses too much in the mean of sanctification which is the eucharist, because eucharist becomes God itself: a catholic worship the host, and he talks with it as a person (divine person).

for this, I would say that there is not biblical evidence that wine is for priests only. the Eucharist for us is God Himself, in that it is the Body and Blood of Christ, Who is God.

 

[Philothei]

Actually I'm not a Catholic and I do know Orthodoxy though I won't go into that. I only posted because the OP seems to find certain things about Catholicism over-the-top or objectionable (he made another post on this in the Catholic forum) but the things he really seems to have an issue with are also going to be found in Orthodoxy since he subscribes to his own "doctrine" of selective transubstantiation or something.

As for everything else in the Catholic churches I've been in I've never seen laity handling the eucharist and more than once the matuska and the girl preparing the antidoron table in the Orthodox churches I've been to were more scandalously dressed than anything I've seen in a Catholic church... what individual people choose to do any way doesn't change the doctrine of their respective churches or the belief that the sacraments are to be treated as holy, and that neither one would throw them in the trash like the OP has claimed occurs, in this and the other thread.

First of all the "matuska" is nothing but a pious lady dressed moderate or the priest would not have allowed her to "cut the prosphora" Secondly girls and women in general not allowed in the altar...(while RC allows!! make note of this one).

Thirdly. The antitheron is NOT Eucarist so how this relevance to preparing the Eucarist of dispensing it I have no clue really. *sigh*
The way that the parishioners dress has anything to do with the Eucaristic ministers??? They ARE NOT eucaristic ministers and further more NO woman is allowed in the ALTAR no matter how she is dressed. ONLY them with special blessing from the Bishop can and they have to be women over 60 ...I cannot imagine any Orthodox woman over 60 dressed "scandalous". This is a strange statement indeed considering our liturgical practices. Either you have not been in one or I would like to see where in this world EO churches allowed for this.

The only time I can see this happening is at the time for collection while ladies from the parish council pass around the trays...

 

[Philothei]

In orthodox doctrine, the bread and the wine are the flesh and the blood of Christ. An orthodox realizes that he enters into communion with the flesh and the blood of Christ, according to quotes of scripture in gospels and corintians.

In catholic doctrine, the bread (the wine is only for the priest) is Christ; this doctrine focuses too much in the mean of sanctification which is the eucharist, because eucharist becomes God itself: a catholic worship the host, and he talks with it as a person (divine person).

What doctrine has better fruits?

For the RC doctrine:
1. Where in scripure it says that the clergy should commune the blood and not the laity.
2. Why would not the EO focus on "sanctification" also? Christ is not only Divine but has both natures.
3. Problem is if God is the Eucarist then....how do we consume God? We are not of the same nature of God ...We will never be of the same nature as we are "made" differently...Christ as God and man, through His incarnation death and resurrection, gives us this "gift" to be able to "partake" in his nature thus to be saved. I agree with Knee-V's answer he said it beautifully BTW I will not repeat it as he put is perfectely

4. Also to the point that the Eucarist is a person... That goes beyond what we are commanded to do with it... Where do you find any connection with scripture that ties to that? What purpose would be the presence of Christ in the Eucarist if not for consuming Him?

 

[Joshua G.]

In catholic doctrine, the bread (the wine is only for the priest) is Christ; this doctrine focuses too much in the mean of sanctification which is the eucharist, because eucharist becomes God itself: a catholic worship the host, and he talks with it as a person (divine person).

This isn't even true. Even in the past when this was the sole practice that wasn't doctrine but practice that any theologian worth his salt knew could change.... It's like celibate priests. It's not Roman Catholic doctrine that married en can't become priests, it's Roman Catholic practice... that can (theoretically) change tomorrow.

Jeronomomoulia... where do you get your information from? Is this studied information or just impressions you have made based on your personal experience?

I am all for one "siding" with the Orthodox. But I think you need to explore your own Church's true beliefs and teachings a bit more.

Josh

 

[Joshua G.]

First of all the "matuska" is nothing but a pious lady dressed moderate or the priest would not have allowed her to "cut the prosphora" Secondly girls and women in general not allowed in the altar...(while RC allows!! make note of this one).

before we throw stones, this is actually something that many clergy in the OCA support, at least in theory if not in practice (and some do in practice). I'm not saying that makes it right but we need to realize that we are not immune from this behavior either. Also, why would it be so hard to believe that there are immodestly dressed Matushkas out there? We're all human.

Thirdly. The antitheron is NOT Eucarist so how this relevance to preparing the Eucarist of dispensing it I have no clue really. *sigh*

It's an important point, but we should remember that it is to be treated with the utmost respect... probably more that most of us do in a family parish in the US. I remember as I was on the road to becoming Orthodox I went to a local Romanian Monastery. I was eating antidoron and I dropped a crumb on the floor. The lady standing next to me (who was clearly Romanian) bent over, picked it up and ate it. My friend and I still laugh to this day at what a disrespectful doofus I looked like. But I took that lesson to heart. I don't lose sleep over it, but I am extra careful with it when eating it, cutting it or distributing it. I am sure you view it similarly to me based on the piety you express in other posts. With that said, I think I can see the significance in pointing out how the people distributing antidoron are dressed. It is connected to the Eucharist in a special way even though it is not at all the Eucharist.

The way that the parishioners dress has anything to do with the Eucaristic ministers???

It doesn't. But he was responding to what Michael and I were saying about the way many people are dressed in modern Catholic Church's when they approach the chalice (or distribute the Body and Blood).

They ARE NOT eucaristic ministers

This is true. They aren't.

and further more NO woman is allowed in the ALTAR no matter how she is dressed. ONLY them with special blessing from the Bishop can and they have to be women over 60 ...

I am glad you have never seen (or apparently heard) of this practice being dismissed as outdated by some OCA clergy who are, otherwise, quite traditional and not mavericks in anyway. I went to one of those parishes. I am glad because it shows that its not spreading like wildfire at this point. It may be that the practice of allowing girls back there is indeed not unOrthodox, but I'm not comfortable with change just because it seems logical. Change like that needs to be done slowly if at all.

I cannot imagine any Orthodox woman over 60 dressed "scandalous".

Cna't imagine it either... don't want to

 

[Joshua G.]

I havlf to correct what was implied in my above statement about altar girls. Although it is practiced, it does seem from my cursory research that it has been recently formally rejected by the OCA heierarchy. So, I apologize that I foo-fooed your point Philothei. It stands as it seems other clergy are being rogue on this.

God bless!

Josh

 

[Philothei]

before we throw stones, this is actually something that many clergy in the OCA support, at least in theory if not in practice (and some do in practice). I'm not saying that makes it right but we need to realize that we are not immune from this behavior either. Also, why would it be so hard to believe that there are immodestly dressed Matushkas out there? We're all human.

I never threw stones... I said what the "majority" practice I am intersted in a small minority that does not se the rule here...of liturgical practice... The stones were thrown from another direction. Matushkas dressed immodesty? I think MOST Russian women are tons more revered dressed than GA and the rest...I cannot fathom in the Russian tradition women in general dressed "immodest" never mind Matuskas IMHO they would be thrown out by the rest of the women
I currently go to an ROCCOR church for inconography lessons and can tell you that no woman would dare to go to the service in a short skirt etc. ...

It's an important point, but we should remember that it is to be treated with the utmost respect... probably more that most of us do in a family parish in the US. I remember as I was on the road to becoming Orthodox I went to a local Romanian Monastery. I was eating antidoron and I dropped a crumb on the floor. The lady standing next to me (who was clearly Romanian) bent over, picked it up and ate it. My friend and I still laugh to this day at what a disrespectful doofus I looked like. But I took that lesson to heart. I don't lose sleep over it, but I am extra careful with it when eating it, cutting it or distributing it. I am sure you view it similarly to me based on the piety you express in other posts. With that said, I think I can see the significance in pointing out how the people distributing antidoron are dressed. It is connected to the Eucharist in a special way even though it is not at all the Eucharist.

I understand what you say but still that illustration does not have any value...It is like saying you are as bad as you are so we are even ... now.

It doesn't. But he was responding to what Michael and I were saying about the way many people are dressed in modern Catholic Church's when they approach the chalice (or distribute the Body and Blood).

You answered this here :

This is true. They aren't.

I am glad you have never seen (or apparently heard) of this practice being dismissed as outdated by some OCA clergy who are, otherwise, quite traditional and not mavericks in anyway. I went to one of those parishes. I am glad because it shows that its not spreading like wildfire at this point. It may be that the practice of allowing girls back there is indeed not unOrthodox, but I'm not comfortable with change just because it seems logical. Change like that needs to be done slowly if at all.
Cna't imagine it either... don't want to

I have no obsection to altar girls as long as they serve in reverance and outside the altar. Women have no business inside the altar unless they have special blessing. Period.