Questions about Mormonism

[Rescued One]

Obviously. You seem to have an erroneous idea of what I am talking about when I refer to "the Church".

Apparently, you have an erroneous idea of the meaning of Christ's words: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me." No where has Christ said, "I will set the example and if you keep enough laws and ordinances, you might be worthy to live with my Father."

He did say, "...no man comes unto the Father, but by me." And He said, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."
John 17:6


The church is not the way! The church is not the gate or the door.


John 10
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

The Church is of course the community of the faithful, however it is also much more than that. As the Body of Christ, the Church also includes the laws, ordinances, commandments, and priesthood of God. That is what I am referring to.

Now you are saying that laws, ordinances, commandments, and priesthood can save. I disagree. Only God can save.

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Romans 8:9

We aren't told to put the Spirit of Christ in a man. That is something God alone can do. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me..."

It is clear that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost work through Christ's Church, as it is His Body (which is the point that I have been making from the beginning, which shouldn't be a point of dispute, as I know other non-LDS Christians say the same thing), for the salvation of souls.

Why would a Mormon use statements by non-LDS to make a point? The body of Christ can and should spread the word of God (plant and water seeds), but only God can give life to the seeds. ("And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;")

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 5:24

Man cannot create faith. It is a gift from God.


Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(Here again, Mormon leaders and the Book of Mormon reject the word of God.)

The Book of Mormon adds to God's word and claims "for we know that is is by grace that we are saved, after all that we can do" (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23).

The LDS Third Article of Faith states: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Pearl of Great Price: Articles of Faith).

Individual salvation according to Mormon teachings is "that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.134).

"...redemption from personal sins can only be obtained through obedience to the requirements of the Gospel, and a life of good works" (James E. Talmage, A Study of the Articles of Faith, Appendix 3, p. 478-479).

 

[MormonBro]

Apparently, you have an erroneous idea of the meaning of Christ's words: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me." No where has Christ said, "I will set the example and if you keep enough laws and ordinances, you might be worthy to live with my Father."

Again, you have an erroneous idea of what the Church is, and its connection to Christ as His Body, with Him at its Head. Until you realize that, it seems as if you'll continue to present (or imply) a disconnect between Christ and His Body. Jesus Christ wants us to follow His commandments, to listen to His servants, to participate in His sacred ordinances, etc. It is clear that yes, He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes unto the Father but by Him. The question then is, how do you do that? This isn't an either/or situation, and the Bible is clear that Christ wants us to follow His commandments and participate in His sacred ordinances, otherwise there would have been no point in Him establishing those things. Christ is the way, and He has shown us how to come unto Him.

Now you are saying that laws, ordinances, commandments, and priesthood can save. I disagree. Only God can save.

See above. Latter-day Saints believe that only God saves us. The question is how. There is no disconnect between the commandments and priesthood of God, and God Himself. Jesus says that if we love Him, keep His commandments (John 14:15).

Why would a Mormon use statements by non-LDS to make a point?

Please read what I wrote again. Nowhere did I use or advocate using non-LDS statements to make a point. What I did say was that non-LDS make the same point that we are making, showing that we did not just invent the fact that God works through His Church.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
John 5:24

Man cannot create faith. It is a gift from God.


Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(Here again, Mormon leaders and the Book of Mormon reject the word of God.)

The Book of Mormon adds to God's word and claims "for we know that is is by grace that we are saved, after all that we can do" (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23).

The LDS Third Article of Faith states: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Pearl of Great Price: Articles of Faith).

Individual salvation according to Mormon teachings is "that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.134).

"...redemption from personal sins can only be obtained through obedience to the requirements of the Gospel, and a life of good works" (James E. Talmage, A Study of the Articles of Faith, Appendix 3, p. 478-479).

No, the Book of Mormon says the same thing that the Bible says. God asks us to keep His commandments, that faith without works is dead, we need faith and charity, work out our salvation with fear and trembling works make faith perfect, etc etc. Latter-day Saints do not make a divide between the Atonement and our works. Indeed, our works are nothing in comparison to the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Christ calls us to follow Him, to follow His commandments, and that is what Latter-day Saints aim to do. He calls us to Him, and we follow Him, and it is through our participation in His atonement that we receive the gift of eternal life. In fact, the next sentence in your Talmage quote says "The transgression of Adam being infinite in its consequences, those consequences cannot be averted, except through an infinite atonement."

 

[bbbbbbb]

Again, you have an erroneous idea of what the Church is, and its connection to Christ as His Body, with Him at its Head. Until you realize that, it seems as if you'll continue to present (or imply) a disconnect between Christ and His Body. Jesus Christ wants us to follow His commandments, to listen to His servants, to participate in His sacred ordinances, etc. It is clear that yes, He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes unto the Father but by Him. The question then is, how do you do that? This isn't an either/or situation, and the Bible is clear that Christ wants us to follow His commandments and participate in His sacred ordinances, otherwise there would have been no point in Him establishing those things. Christ is the way, and He has shown us how to come unto Him.

See above. Latter-day Saints believe that only God saves us. The question is how. There is no disconnect between the commandments and priesthood of God, and God Himself. Jesus says that if we love Him, keep His commandments (John 14:15).

Please read what I wrote again. Nowhere did I use or advocate using non-LDS statements to make a point. What I did say was that non-LDS make the same point that we are making, showing that we did not just invent the fact that God works through His Church.

No, the Book of Mormon says the same thing that the Bible says. God asks us to keep His commandments, that faith without works is dead, we need faith and charity, work out our salvation with fear and trembling works make faith perfect, etc etc. Latter-day Saints do not make a divide between the Atonement and our works. Indeed, our works are nothing in comparison to the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Christ calls us to follow Him, to follow His commandments, and that is what Latter-day Saints aim to do. He calls us to Him, and we follow Him, and it is through our participation in His atonement that we receive the gift of eternal life. In fact, the next sentence in your Talmage quote says "The transgression of Adam being infinite in its consequences, those consequences cannot be averted, except through an infinite atonement."

So, if Christ's atonement is infinite, as Talmadge implies, there is absolutely no need for anything else to add to it.

However, if it is merely finite, as you seem to suggest, and needing our efforts to boost it to infinity, then it is carrying coals to Newcastle to do so. It is impossible to achieve infinity using finite means.

 

[Rescued One]

... He calls us to Him, and we follow Him, and it is through our participation in His atonement that we receive the gift of eternal life. In fact, the next sentence in your Talmage quote says "The transgression of Adam being infinite in its consequences, those consequences cannot be averted, except through an infinite atonement."

According to Mormonism, the atonement of Christ guarantees a universal resurrection to all mankind regardless of what they believe or what they do. Mormonism identifies this as a general salvation. However, being condemned is not the same as having eternal life according to both the Bible and Mormonism. So the Mormon view of the atonement is not infinite.

John 3
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Mormonism falsely teaches:

Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father's house are many mansions” (John 14:2).
Kingdoms of Glory

Doctrine and Covenants 76
109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Further investigation reveals the lie that is perpetrated upon Mormons concerning a Telestial Kingdom of glory.

According to the Doctrine and Covenants those who will inherit this kingdom are those who:

Rejected the gospel, the testimony of Jesus, the prophets, and the everlasting covenant.
Were liars, adulterers, murderers, thieves, and all others who flouted God's commandments.
Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

Therefore, it is apparent that LDS claim there is a kingdom of glory for those whom the Bible declares will have everlasting punishment.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

The Book of Mormon Student Manual quotes Talmage's book, A Study of the Articles of Faith:

Lehi’s message in 2Nephi 2:3–7 pertains to redemption, the means whereby the Savior brought salvation unto man. Lehi said that “salvation is free” ( v.4 ). In what sense is this true?

“We believe that through the sufferings, death, and atonement of Jesus Christ all mankind, without one exception, are to be completely and fully redeemed, both body and spirit, from the endless banishment and curse to which they were consigned by Adam’s transgression; and that this universal salvation and redemption of the whole human family from the endless penalty of the original sin, is effected without any conditions whatever on their part; that is, they are not required to believe or repent, or be baptized, or do anything else, in order to be redeemed from that penalty; for whether they believe or disbelieve, whether they repent or remain impenitent, whether they are baptized or unbaptized, whether they keep the commandments or break them, whether they are righteous or unrighteous, it will make no difference in relation to their redemption, both soul and body, from the penalty of Adam’s transgression. The most righteous man that ever lived on the earth, and the most wicked wretch of the whole human family, were both placed under the same curse without any transgression or agency of their own, and they both alike will be redeemed from that curse, without any agency or conditions on their part” (Orson Pratt, in JamesE. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, pp.477–78).
http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/book-of-mormon-institute-student-manual/bm1996-03-2ne-3-1.asp

Talmage wrote: "Redemption from the Fall Universal and Unconditional--- We believe that through the sufferings, death, and atonement of Jesus Christ all mankind, without one exception, are to be completely and fully redeemed, both body and spirit..."

Being resurrected is not salvation, is not redemption, and there is no kingdom that is Telestial. The origin of the word telestial did not come from God.

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Acts 24:15

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:46

There are no half-goat/half-sheep persons who are both saved and damned! Jesus didn't die to half save a person.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There are no half-goat/half-sheep persons who are both saved and damned! Jesus didn't die to half save a person.

Nor, I would add, is it possible for anyone to be half born-again. One is either born or one is not. One is either born again or one is not. One is saved or one is lost. There is no gray area between the two.

 

[BadWolf123]

Hmmmmm - interesting logic - so you believe Jesus is the one and only "keeper" of the way - if there is another such a claim is wrong?

Son of Zadok

Jesus is not some mere "keeper of the way" Jesus IS THE way.

LDS Leadership have spoken numerous times that Jesu is NOT the way, but that Smith, rather than Jesus, is the way:

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by the Prophet Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him. "
- 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon quoted

There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Our entire case as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the validity of this glorious First Vision. ... Nothing on which we base our doctrine, nothing we teach, nothing we live by is of greater importance than this initial declaration. I submit that if Joseph Smith talked with God the Father and His Beloved Son, then all else of which he spoke is true. This is the hinge on which turns the gate that leads to the path of salvation and eternal life."[/FONT]
- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign Mag., Nov. 1998, pp.70-71

"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

Why has Smith surpassed Jesus in deciding who is allowed to live in Gods Kingdom?
Why do your Prophets and Apostles consistently, over large amounts of time, write, edit and publish such doctrine?

 

[skylark1]

Someone here on CF once asked me if I didn't agree that the LDS had put their church in place of Christ. I wasn't so sure. Then I later read this statement:

Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life"
(Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119). Also quoted in Book of Mormon Student Manual Religion 121 and 122, 1989, 26).

and this one:

Keep Faith with the Church
"This Church is the way of truth and life and salvation."

Gordon B. Hinckley
http://www.byui.edu/perspective/v2n2pdf/v2n2_hinkley.pdf

While I agree that the LDS Church teaches that membership in their church is a requirement for salvation in the truest sense of the word, I disagree that LDS have put their church in the place of Christ. Like the Catholic faith, LDS teach that their church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ, and that

The following is quoted in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 816.

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3​

I think that a perusal of the talks in which these quotes were given helps to better understand the inended meaning of these statements. Just reading a small portion of a talk can lead to misunderstandings. While I agree that LDS teach that their church is necessary for salvation, I think that when these talks are read, that it is evident that they do not teach the their church has replaced Christ. The following is from the talk in which the first quote that was offered, by Marion Romney, and provides some context to it.

We have come to this conference from many nations of the world—not, however, as representatives of the governments of these nations. We are here representing the leadership of the kingdom of God. This Church is the literal kingdom of God in the earth. We did not come to argue, to jockey for position, to compromise differences and establish policies. We came here to hear and learn the word of God as he has and does now reveal it through his appointed servants, and to take it back and teach it to our people. We know that the gospel of Jesus Christ, of which this Church is the repository, is the one and only way of peace. We know that to everyone who accepts and lives it there comes peace—peace in his heart—even in the midst of turmoil in the world. We know that if the people of the world would accept it and live it, we would have peace in all the world. We are in very deed representatives of Jesus Christ our Redeemer and his Father, God our Eternal Father. Our authority comes from them...

Now this Church is the Church of Jesus Christ. Of course, no one can know this fact with certainty unless he has received a witness from the Holy Ghost. Everyone who will look can see, however, that the Church meets the requirement laid down by the Redeemer. It was named by him, it is called after him, and it is built upon the gospel as he defined it.

This Church is the standard which Isaiah said the Lord would set up for the people in the latter days. This Church was given to be a light to the world and to be a standard for God's people and for the Gentiles to seek to ( D&C 45:9). This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets ( Isa. 18:3). It is the way, the truth, and the life ( John 14:6).

I know these things are true. I know them by the witness of the Spirit to my soul, and I bear you that witness. I know Jesus Christ lives. When I think of him, my Redeemer, I am always moved. In my mind's eye, I see him in that great council before the world was ( Moses 4:2), when he said in effect to his Father, "I will go. Mine be the willing sacrifice, the endless glory thine."

I view him as the Creator of this world and of the starry heavens. In this respect it is difficult for us to realize the greatness of Jesus. Enoch was amazed when the Lord showed him his creations. He referred to the number of them in this language: ". . . were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations" ( Moses 7:30).

I think of this man—this Son of God, Jesus—as he stood on Mount Shelem before the brother of Jared in his full-length spirit body and said:

"Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. . . .

". . . Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

"Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh" ( Ether 3:14-16).

That was 2,200 years before he appeared on earth as the infant son of Mary. I think of his coming into this world, the Son of Mary and God the Eternal Father.

I think of him as he went through his life, teaching and blessing the people.

And, oh, I think of him in Gethsemane, when he suffered the pain of all men, that we might be forgiven of our sins on conditions of repentance. I think of Luke's statement describing Christ's suffering in Gethsemane: "... his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" ( Luke 22:44). And of Christ's statement to Joseph Smith: ". . . Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

"Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men" ( D&C 19:18-19).

By his suffering he put into effect the plan of mercy, the merciful gospel plan of redemption by which all men may be cleansed of their sins.

And then I think of him on the cross. I think of him in the garden, when he spoke to Mary, following which the light and knowledge broke through upon his disciples that he in reality had won the victory over death, bringing about not only his own, but the resurrection of all people.

I think of him with the Father in the grove with the Prophet Joseph. I know he lives.

I know my Redeemer lives. "Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior" ( D&C 76:1)


"My Church Shall Be Called in My Name"
LDS Scripture Citation Index​

I also wanted to offer some context for the second quote. I find it significant that in this same speech, Gordon Hinckley also wrote of Christ being the way, the truth, and the life.

Keep faith with God our Eternal Father and the Risen Lord Jesus Christ

I have seen in my lifetime those who started out walking in the sunlight of faith. But gradually, through arrogance and conceit, through pride and a desire for the honors of men, they have turned their backs on God and forsaken Him. They have literally traded their birthright for a mess of pottage. They have thrown away that which was most precand substituted a hollow shell. Like the prodigal son who wasted his inheritance “with riotous living” until he would fain eat husks with the hogs, they have sought satisfaction in the husks of life. Their lives have become empty, unfulfilled. They have forsaken their God who gave them life, and their Redeemer who bought them with His blood.

Declared Jehovah to ancient Israel, “I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

Keep that humility which will cause you to get on your knees in prayer, in acknowledgment of His power and goodness. He will not fail you. He will hear your prayers. He will answer your prayers. In the stillness of the night, you will hear the whisperings of His Spirit to direct you in your times of distress and need. Those times will come to you as they do to all. Keep faith with God and He will never let you down. He will never turn His back upon you. To you He has said: “Be still, and know that I am God.” And His Beloved Son has declared, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” There is none other to bless you as your Father in heaven and His divine Son will bless you.​

 

[A New Dawn]

While I agree that the LDS Church teaches that membership in their church is a requirement for salvation in the truest sense of the word, I disagree that LDS have put their church in the place of Christ.

I think that this defines what standing in the stead of Christ means, though. True salvation comes through membership in the church. Us other Christians will not be saved (in the truest sense of the word) because we just have faith in Christ.

 

[Huram Abi]

If you think that madmade institutions can save, it is just as easy to go farther and say that man can save.

In fact, believing that man can save himself is better than believing that salvation comes from church.

At least there is scripture to support it.

Luke 17:20-21

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

"Lo here! or, lo there!" to me is a warning of the competing denominations that each say "only here can you find salvation."

 

[Rescued One]

While I agree that the LDS Church teaches that membership in their church is a requirement for salvation in the truest sense of the word, I disagree that LDS have put their church in the place of Christ. Like the Catholic faith, LDS teach that their church is the one true church founded by Jesus Christ,

I won't address Roman Catholic teachings in this thread. Having been in the LDS church for over a decade, I can attest to the fact that LDS consider their church the way, the truth, and the life. I remember the lessons, talks, and testimonies.

LDS teach that Eternal Life is only available in and through the Mormon church and strict adherence to its teachings and commands. They have replaced the Savior as the sole means of salvation and teach dependence upon the LDS Plan of Salvation. They have limited Christ's ability to atone for our sins to a list of extra-biblical requirements that first have to be met and Christ is unable to save those who do not keep the laws and ordinances of Mormonism.


"What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power? ...It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel ...It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts" (Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, p.54-55).

"This is the only true church ...This is not a church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. There are churches of men all over the land and they have great cathedrals, synagogues, and other houses of worship running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. They are churches of men. They teach the doctrines of men, combined with the philosophies and ethics and other ideas and ideals that men have partly developed and partly found in sacred places and interpreted for themselves" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.421).

LDS teach that a person who believes in Christ, but goes to the "wrong church," is not saved:

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190)

According to Mormonism, a person who believes in Christ, but depends soley upon the Bible for instruction, is in dangerous territory:

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
1 Nephi 13: 24-29


Mormonism is a thief and robber that prescribes another way. There are other churches that do the same, but this thread is about Mormonism according to the OP.

 

[skylark1]

I think that this defines what standing in the stead of Christ means, though. True salvation comes through membership in the church. Us other Christians will not be saved (in the truest sense of the word) because we just have faith in Christ.

I think that there is a difference between a group adding requirements to faith in Christ for salvation, and claiming that they have put their church in the place of Christ. I do not dispute that LDS have additional requirements; that they do not teach salvation through faith alone. However, LDS do teach and believe that Jesus Christ is their Savior, their Redeemer, and that He is the way the truth, and the life.

 

[Rescued One]

I think that there is a difference between a group adding requirements to faith in Christ for salvation, and claiming that they have put their church in the place of Christ. I do not dispute that LDS have additional requirements; that they do not teach salvation through faith alone. However, LDS do teach and believe that Jesus Christ is their Savior, their Redeemer, and that He is the way the truth, and the life.

Well, you are most certainly free to think anything you want about any or all of my posts.

What I am saying is that faith in Christ and obedience to Him are not sufficient for eternal life according to Mormonism. Faith with works is not enough in their teachings. The standard LDS testimony that I heard every Fast Sunday in the LDS church included the following phrase, "I know that this Church is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God." Many times people added, "and I know that [insert name of then current prophet] is a prophet today."

The devout Catholic, Methodist, Brethren in Christ, Mennonite, or Assembly of God members must all accept Joseph Smith and the LDS Church in addition to abstaining from coffee, tea, alcohol and tobacco. They must pay a full tithe to the LDS church, make covenants in the LDS temple, wear their temple garments, accept callings made by the Bishop as if they are from God, etc. Christ's atonement alone is not sufficient to save these people. We have discussed Mormon teachings several times here at CF; I am not expecting you to agree with me.

LDS agree, in words, that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, but LDS say the same about their church.

This Church is the standard which Isaiah said the Lord would set up for the people in the latter days. This Church was given to be a light to the world and to be a standard for God’s people and for the Gentiles to seek to. This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life.
Marion G. Romney, CR, April 1961, 119


Spencer W. Kimball stated, "... however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation* to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel" (Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 207).

*eternal life

However powerful? How can they say that about Christ's death and blood?

The gift of God is eternal life!