Questions About Hell

[Saint Steven]

All sin is worthy of separation from God.

Right. Because we'll just never be as good as he is?

So he created hell to make a point about how inferior we are?

It seems like you have created a monster.

 

[AlexDTX]

I don't know them because they happened in the first five centuries of the Church when Apokatastasis was the predominant theme of God's mercy. The Church grew by leaps and bounds as the lovely message of God's forgiving and accepting love was accepted by millions. The message of God's anger, judgment, and took seed with Augustine and from there really took off in the Western Church.

So your answer is none today, but you assume this is how the Early Church first came to Christ. But that is only your assumption. If this teaching is correct, then how come you are not talking to the lost and sharing this message. "Millions" should be coming to Christ through this message. But they are not, because all the US believers I have talked with don't share this message with the lost. In fact you don't evangelize at all.

So.......I don't know them and neither do you. But let's turn this around? How well is the message of God's damnation, hatred, and anger towards people doing in turning the world to Christ? Seems that it is not doing very well in our country, where for the first time, according to a recent poll, by percentage, atheists outnumber believers.

At least they are coming to Christ, but you lead none.

 

[FineLinen]

So your answer is none today, but you assume this is how the Early Church first came to Christ. But that is only your assumption. If this teaching is correct, then how come you are not talking to the lost and sharing this message. "Millions" should be coming to Christ through this message. But they are not, because all the US believers I have talked with don't share this message with the lost. In fact you don't evangelize at all.



At least they are coming to Christ, but you lead none.

Dear Alex: I know not how many believers in the Restitution of the all you have talked to, but you are assuming with a gigantic A. what you know not regarding any who follow the Master Lesous. You know not their hearts, their devotion, or their reach as letters to be read of all men!

BREAKING GOOD NEWS

Apostle Paul reports that the impact of death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 2,000 years ago shown to be more, not less, powerful than the disobedience of man He created 4,000 years prior (Romans 5:19)! Christians "horrified" and "offended" by this "heresy!" Furiously argue redemption of all mankind is an "insult to the cross of Christ"... -John Moneypenny-

1. Was it consistent with divine justice, to love us, when we did not love Him?
2. If God once loved us, will not that love eternally continue?
3. If the love of God is the cause which produces love in man, can anger and wrath produce the same effect?
4. Is it the revealed will of God that all men should be saved?
5. Can God will all men to be saved, knowing that a part will be forever lost?

 

[AlexDTX]

Dear Alex: I know not how many believers in the Restitution of the all you have talked to, but you are assuming with a gigantic A. what you know not regarding any who follow the Master Lesous. You know not their hearts, their devotion, or their reach as letters to be read of all men!

BREAKING GOOD NEWS

Apostle Paul reports that the impact of death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 2,000 years ago shown to be more, not less, powerful than the disobedience of man He created 4,000 years prior (Romans 5:19)! Christians "horrified" and "offended" by this "heresy!" Furiously argue redemption of all mankind is an "insult to the cross of Christ"... -John Moneypenny-

My question has nothing to do with the leaders of this doctrine. My question is straightforward. How many do you know that has come to Christ through this teaching. The answer remains the same: zero.

Because the truth is no one comes to Christ by this teaching. No salvation experiences are built into the teaching because, a lost person, upon hearing it will see no need to put their trust in Christ.

I see the attraction to the teaching since it mitigates fear of punishment in the Lake of Fire, particularly to Christians whose outlook has been works based resulting in a sense of guilt and condemnation. But the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. The grace of the cross and the effectiveness of the blood of Jesus should be enough to eliminate guilt and condemnation. I have none, because I know what my Redeemer has accomplished for me.

This condemnation comes not from the doctrine of Hell and the Lake of Fire, but from the religious system of organized religion. Condemnation for not tithing. Condemnation for not attending every Sunday. Condemnation for not reading the Bible enough. Condemnation for not praying enough. None of this condemnation comes from God. It comes from a system run by men that need your money to live.

It is this system that also does little for fulfilling the Great Commission, apart from encouraging people in believing they have shared the Gospel because they are "partners" with missionaries and give money for their support.

What the system has done is robbed the saints of their faith in Christ as they put their faith in the system instead.

I am not promoting the teaching of Hell and the Lake of Fire, I merely accept the truth of this fate. Nor do I believe that God decides like Oprah that you go to hell, and you go to hell... He is not willing that any perish. But He gives us a choice, and he honors our choices.

And He delegates responsibility to us. We are given the command to go into all the world and preach the gospel. And this is my bone of contention with the US doctrine. It denies the plain statements of the Scriptures regarding the after life, and it removes motivation to share with the lost.

This is why I object to the insistence on sharing this doctrine with those that are already saved. You are not sharing the Gospel with the lost. Those of us who have the new birth already know and love our Lord.

 

[AlexDTX]

So he created hell to make a point about how inferior we are?

There is no punishment in hell. It is merely a place of quarantine until the White Throne Judgment. Nor is the Lake of Fire a place of punishment. It, too, is a form of quarantine. Jesus said the Lake of Fire was created for Lucifer and his followers. All who reject Christ, are Lucifer's followers.

 

[Saint Steven]

How many do you know that has come to Christ through this teaching.

This is the perfect gospel for those who could never believe in a God that would send people to hell.

Unfortunately, all we can offer is that they will not be there forever. That is, in a place no one would want to spend a single minute.

Luke 16:28
for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

 

[martymonster]

Jesus doesn’t agree, He warned of torment and gave no hope of an ending. I’m going with Jesus.

Jesus also said this. Now tell me how this gels with your "one size punishment fits all" hellfire doctrine?

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[AlexDTX]

This is the perfect gospel for those who could never believe in a God that would send people to hell.

Unfortunately, all we can offer is that they will not be there forever. That is, in a place no one would want to spend a single minute.

Luke 16:28
for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Another non-answer. Who have you led to Christ with this version of the gospel, Steven. Or how many do you know have come to Christ because of this preaching? None. It is a gospel being foisted upon believers who already know the Lord.

 

[Saint Steven]

There is no punishment in hell. It is merely a place of quarantine until the White Throne Judgment. Nor is the Lake of Fire a place of punishment. It, too, is a form of quarantine. Jesus said the Lake of Fire was created for Lucifer and his followers. All who reject Christ, are Lucifer's followers.

Sounds like a misquote. The devil and his angels? Quarantine? I thought you were blaming us for soft-pedaling. Wow.

 

[Saint Steven]

Another non-answer. Who have you led to Christ with this version of the gospel, Steven. Or how many do you know have come to Christ because of this preaching? None. It is a gospel being foisted upon believers who already know the Lord.

1) Universalism is NOT a "gospel". It is a doctrinal position on the final judgment.
2) My view of the gospel has not changed.
3) I'm fairly new to the greater hope and still trying to learn about it.
4) If I tell any Christians about it they typically disown me.

But you wonder why I'm not spreading the good news?

 

[AlexDTX]

Sounds like a misquote. The devil and his angels? Quarantine? I thought you were blaming us for soft-pedaling. Wow.

No, I am not soft pedaling. The Lake of Fire is the second death because it is the continuation of the first death. I just wasn't up for spelling it all out again. The fire will never be quenched because it is an everlasting decomposition that never is completed.

All who reject the gift of life in Christ are choosing the living death we are all born into because of the Adamic nature. Rejecting Christ means preferring the living death. The Lake of Fire is the continuation of that living death after the grave. It is a quarantine, because no one will come out to pollute the New Heaven and New Earth that all of us who have accepted life in Christ.

The most important take away from the story of the rich man and Lazarus is the need to accept Christ before dying.

In the story the rich man asks that someone from the dead go tell his family of this fate. The answer he got was that they have the Bible. If they don't believe the Bible, they won't believe someone who comes back from the dead. One must believe God before dying. We have to die in faith to obtain the glory promised.

 

[Saint Steven]

The fire will never be quenched because it is an everlasting decomposition that never is completed.

That sounds dreadful. Is that a part of God's creation that he called "good"?

 

[AlexDTX]

1) Universalism is NOT a "gospel". It is a doctrinal position on the final judgment.
2) My view of the gospel has not changed.
3) I'm fairly new to the greater hope and still trying to learn about it.
4) If I tell any Christians about it they typically disown me.

But you wonder why I'm not spreading the good news?

The hair you split is wrong. The Good news is that we can know God now and bypass the second death. Remove that and you take a leg out of the Gospel.

I would not disown you as a believer in Christ. I have no doubt, you would not tell a lost person this "doctrinal position on the final judgment" because they would see no need to ask Christ into their hearts.

 

[AlexDTX]

That sounds dreadful. Is that a part of God's creation that he called "good"?

No, it is part of the clean up of creation after the fall.

 

[Saint Steven]

The most important take away from the story of the rich man and Lazarus is the need to accept Christ before dying.

What is the most important takeaway from the story of Christ descending into hell to take captivity captive?

 

[Saint Steven]

I have no doubt, you would not tell a lost person this "doctrinal position on the final judgment" because they would see no need to ask Christ into their hearts.

I already mentioned that the greater hope has an appeal for those who refuse to believe in a God that would send people to hell.

There is biblical support for all three views of the final judgement.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Universalism

 

[FineLinen]

No, I am not soft pedaling. The Lake of Fire is the second death because it is the continuation of the first death. I just wasn't up for spelling it all out again. The fire will never be quenched because it is an everlasting decomposition that never is completed.

Dear Alex: The Lake of Theos is the continuation of the very One who is our God the Consuming Pur. It absolutely is NOT the continuation of the first death.

You have done a dismal job answering one single question. Since you have not quite reached your 490 forgiveness credits, and my patience is 1/2 way to perfection, I will ask you another question>>>>

Can you tell us which believers in Christ are NOT "hurt" by the second death?

 

[Saint Steven]

No, it is part of the clean up of creation after the fall.

Clean up, or cover up?

Does God expect us to love those who hate us? Why? (or why not)

 

[Light of the East]

All sin is worthy of separation from God.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 1:32

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matthew 25:44-46

All sin? Stealing a penny as a kid? Not accepting Jesus after I have seen His people stealing from my company? Being born in Africa where I only heard about and worshiped pagan gods?

ALL??

 

[Saint Steven]

Since the main theme of the Bible is the redemption of humankind, which seems to be the more appropriate conclusion?
1) Restoration
2) Damnation