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really , and honestly i never see that in the bible , as i never see in the bible that jesus (pbuh) is God also . (so you should think about it by yourself)Could you show me from the Bible where it says you will go to hell if you didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus?
I know this is not a "specific question, but could you please go into more detail?So reading and using some common sense on top of it helped a lot. I believed it was the word of Allah but more I prayed and read the Bible that belief weakened and vanished.
That's a good point. I would be interested in how you, as a Muslim, determined that the Bible was not corrupted but perhaps it would take too long for you to describe fully.I considered why I was always taught to believe that previous scriptures were corrupted but this was not.
Which Faith were you strong in? Not Islam, because you abandoned it. Is anyone trying to get you leave Christianity in general, or the Orthodox Church for a different denomination?Be strong in your faith, as I was
elwill said:Originally Posted by Bushmaster
Could you show me from the Bible where it says you will go to hell if you didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus?
really , and honestly i never see that in the bible , as i never see in the bible that jesus (pbuh) is God also . (so you should think about it by yourself)
i just mean it as from view of christians not bible .
from point of christianity view , what is the non_christians fate in hereafter ?
Ok, first thing that made me interested and surprised was the opposite claims of Christianity. Islam said, Christ didn’t die, Christianity said the opposite. Islam said previous Scriptures are corrupt. Christianity said the opposite. I realized the similarity of Scriptures but also seen the important departures, like I mentioned, about Christ, Isaac-Ishmael, etc, while same prophets were honored similarly in both. Now, I have to stress the importance of this, while I had faith in Allah and believed that Muhammad was his messenger, and Quran was a revealed book, I was not a huge fan of the Islam religion. Radicalism that is existent in this religion also played a role that I cannot deny. Common sense issue I talked about was mainly related to the Scriptures and alleged corruption. The allegations do not actually appear in history until Muslims come into contact with Christians in large numbers, mostly Holy Land area. In my critical thinking, a God that is not able to preserve His word for so long and somehow He vows again in the case of Quran and He preserves that one, while the corrupt mankind is still corrupt mankind, didn’t make any sense. This reason, and the difference of Scriptures related to Christ weakened my belief in the accounts of Quran which posed great danger, because that book claimed to be existent in Paradise before, as it was “collected” by arabs. If arabs were able to perfectly reproduce it, why were Christians so dishonest and shady to tamper theirs? Christian martyrs, and the reality of divine inspiration unlike mechanical revelation of Quran were the last nails of Quran’s coffin to me. Quran was out of the picture.[COLOR=black said:[FONT="]I_are_sceptical][/FONT][/COLOR]
Originally Posted by Bushmaster http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=46167087#post46167087
So reading and using some common sense on top of it helped a lot. I believed it was the word of Allah but more I prayed and read the Bible that belief weakened and vanished.
I know this is not a "specific question, but could you please go into more detail?
What, exactly, did "common sense" tell you that overshadowed to idea that the Qur'an was God's Word?
What was the first belief you had that weakened?
Mainly, I couldn’t see a reason why they would have done so. There was nothing to gain, but too much to lose knowing they were tampering with God’s message, as God is not mocked. Understanding how bible was collected was crucial because Muslims believe prophets with major religions have a book that dropped from Paradise just like Muhammad. So in that mentality, Moses, David, and Jesus had revelations that were given unto them. Bible doesn’t claim this at all, except the Ten Commandments. Seeing that Scriptures were copied in great numbers in such a short period and were circulated within early Church reduced the possibility of a major flaw in teachings, and the piety of early clergy and their extensive usage of Scriptures and preservation, and modern archaeological findings helped me determine that Scriptures were not corrupted and/or tampered with. During conversations, muslims claimed this and provided evidence of interpolation and none were related to the Orthodox Christianity, but some heretical sect justifying their beliefs. Modern scholars assertions towards non-existent verses, and finding early fathers using the same verses extensively strengthened my belief in this matter.[FONT="] [/FONT]That's a good point. I would be interested in how you, as a Muslim, determined that the Bible was not corrupted but perhaps it would take too long for you to describe fully.
I did mean to say this from spirituality perspective. I had doubts of Islam but I didn’t become an atheist. I was faithful to a faith that had failed in the face of claims of Christianity. Upon that, I became very analytical and I asked Christianity my questions, and a new faith flourished, as it happened to millions that lived before me. Is anyone trying to get me to leave my faith right now? Not that I know of. I followed a similar path to Orthodox Church also, I was a Protestant. There was only one person I know that got extremely upset that I became Orthodox, but he is very anti-catholic in general, and he thinks I became a Catholic. While we share a common apostolic heritage, we have our differences.[FONT="] [/FONT]Which Faith were you strong in? Not Islam, because you abandoned it. Is anyone trying to get you leave Christianity in general, or the Orthodox Church for a different denomination?
Nope. But you do have to believe in both YHWH and His Christ Jesus.Could you show me from the Bible where it says you will go to hell if you didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus?
Is there any chance you could elaborate on this? Did you decide the Qur'an was mechanical revelation before you began studying Christianity, or after? If after, did you at some point in your life feel the Qur'an really was divine inspiration?the reality of divine inspiration unlike mechanical revelation of Quran.
Persecuted in society in general, not governmentally. How many hate crimes do you think we had before 9/11 against muslims... compared to now? Denial of services... etc. Exclusion is persecution in my book as well.
eh. I think the media here is very "propoganda" oriented so I scarcely believe much of what they say is truth... but one sided and meant to be sensational. (so I know how you feel about it flipping things upside down - so many people get all freaked out at the news here)actually i am trying to find some honest academic studies on copts ... i hear from egyptian muslims that copts are the most privileged minority in middle east. they own a good portion of egypt's entrepreneurship and enjoy civil and religious right like everyone else.... in fact, churches open 24 hours whereas mosques are forced close after the last prayers .... muslims are not allowed to grow beards (beard = terrorism for the egyptian govt) .... the only sources of information on persecution come from coptic websites and organizations which give a biased opinion ... they exploit the single cases of persecution (like the single cases of muslim's persecution after 9/11) ... simply propaganda .... actually, if you search the arab news websites, you can find articles about converts to islam persecuted by their coptic families ... you will find that the coptic church in egypt has been producing movies and cartoons like the danish ones insulting our prophet (ppbuh) and islam ... this defintely outrages muslims .. and shows bigotry of the coptic church as they are not happy about the diminishing numbers of their followers by conversion to islam
just amazing how powerful propaganda can be at flipping reality upside down
dont interset you ?!!!!First of all, I didnt ask you if you could see in the Bible that Christ is God. Dont make points that dont interest me, please
it depends on whom believers refers to ?you dont see in the Bible what happens to the non-believers in the afterlife? Or is it non-Christians?
so muslims also in the safe side from prespective of christianity ?and it could be possible to be a muslim, unaware of Christ but extremely loving to other people, God will judge the heart. So, again, no I cant say that anyone is doomed to eternal damnation, including muslims, bahaI, etc.
is this your reasons to convert ? muslims said that quran reserved and bible corrupts , but you wasn't comfortable to the idea of bible corrupting , so you refused islam and accepted christianity?Ok, first thing that made me interested and surprised was the opposite claims of Christianity. Islam said, Christ didnt die, Christianity said the opposite. Islam said previous Scriptures are corrupt. Christianity said the opposite. I realized the similarity of Scriptures but also seen the important departures, like I mentioned, about Christ, Isaac-Ishmael, etc, while same prophets were honored similarly in both. Now, I have to stress the importance of this, while I had faith in Allah and believed that Muhammad was his messenger, and Quran was a revealed book, I was not a huge fan of the Islam religion. Radicalism that is existent in this religion also played a role that I cannot deny. Common sense issue I talked about was mainly related to the Scriptures and alleged corruption. The allegations do not actually appear in history until Muslims come into contact with Christians in large numbers, mostly Holy Land area. In my critical thinking, a God that is not able to preserve His word for so long and somehow He vows again in the case of Quran and He preserves that one, while the corrupt mankind is still corrupt mankind, didnt make any sense. This reason, and the difference of Scriptures related to Christ weakened my belief in the accounts of Quran which posed great danger, because that book claimed to be existent in Paradise before, as it was collected by arabs. If arabs were able to perfectly reproduce it, why were Christians so dishonest and shady to tamper theirs? Christian martyrs, and the reality of divine inspiration unlike mechanical revelation of Quran were the last nails of Qurans coffin to me. Quran was out of the picture.
muslims always believed that bible is corrupted , but christians scholar and church proofed it ,and modern archaeological findings helped me determine that Scriptures were not corrupted and/or tampered with.
yes , christinity faith is very unity and strong !I had doubts of Islam but I didnt become an atheist. I was faithful to a faith that had failed in the face of claims of Christianity.
what is the type of questions you asked , give me examples ?Upon that, I became very analytical and I asked Christianity my questions, and a new faith flourished, as it happened to millions that lived before me.
Talk for yourself ... I know personally copts in this country who were pursecuted for fact from the muslims in Egypt... what are you talking about.. the killings that are happening or the persucutions... The christian persecution in Egypt is actual there are way too many incedents that prove that..... What converts to Islam?? with gun point?? give me a break... You expect us to believe that?? No one is making fun of your prophet stop lying...actually i am trying to find some honest academic studies on copts ... i hear from egyptian muslims that copts are the most privileged minority in middle east. they own a good portion of egypt's entrepreneurship and enjoy civil and religious right like everyone else.... in fact, churches open 24 hours whereas mosques are forced close after the last prayers .... muslims are not allowed to grow beards (beard = terrorism for the egyptian govt) .... the only sources of information on persecution come from coptic websites and organizations which give a biased opinion ... they exploit the single cases of persecution (like the single cases of muslim's persecution after 9/11) ... simply propaganda .... actually, if you search the arab news websites, you can find articles about converts to islam persecuted by their coptic families ... you will find that the coptic church in egypt has been producing movies and cartoons like the danish ones insulting our prophet (ppbuh) and islam ... this defintely outrages muslims .. and shows bigotry of the coptic church as they are not happy about the diminishing numbers of their followers by conversion to islam
just amazing how powerful propaganda can be at flipping reality upside down
Talk for yourself ... I know personally copts in this country who were pursecuted for fact from the muslims in Egypt... what are you talking about.. the killings that are happening or the persucutions... The christian persecution in Egypt is actual there are way too many incedents that prove that..... What converts to Islam?? with gun point?? give me a break... You expect us to believe that?? No one is making fun of your prophet stop lying...
[/COLOR said:I_are_sceptical]Bushmaster, thank you for your comments. They are very informative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmaster
the reality of divine inspiration unlike mechanical revelation of Quran.
Is there any chance you could elaborate on this? Did you decide the Qur'an was mechanical revelation before you began studying Christianity, or after? If after, did you at some point in your life feel the Qur'an really was divine inspiration?
I prefer to just quote Matthew 24:9 in respect to that.Talk for yourself ... I know personally copts in this country who were pursecuted for fact from the muslims in Egypt... what are you talking about.. the killings that are happening or the persucutions... The christian persecution in Egypt is actual there are way too many incedents that prove that..... What converts to Islam?? with gun point?? give me a break... You expect us to believe that?? No one is making fun of your prophet stop lying...
Why do Muslims view every questioning of Islam as an attack upon them? Why is every critical analysis of their religion, its tenets, and its source greeted with a barrage of defensive comments and insults? This situation can be frustrating to those of us accustomed to linear logic and open, critical thought. At the heart of the problem lies the basic educational difference between Muslims and non-Muslims.
From the beginning, Islamic education starts formulating a conceptualization, which logically connects automatic Islamic thoughts and beliefs. This education system fails to see the larger picture and jumps from one core belief to another, providing students with a limited, hostile, and fallacious cognitive map which remains with them for life.
This rigid Islamic cognitive schema has a profound impact on Muslims' thought paradigms, emotional responses, and behavioral patterns because it provides them with a common narrative history, common cognitive patterns, common social scripts, and common kinds of aspirations, attitudes, and cultural values.
The whole thought system lacks critical thinking, rational analysis, and personal responsibility, leaving Muslims content just to stay the same while blaming everyone but themselves for their own thinking errors.
When confronted with their own failings and shortcomings, Muslims hide behind alibi and denial, using thought clichés such as everything that happens is Allahs will and "non-believers will burn in Islamic hell fire". Such automatic expressions influence their subsequent emotional and behavioral responses in every situation. Furthermore, these automatic responses, based on their preconceived Islamic thought paradigm, often misconstrue even the most neutral of situations so as to fit them into their closed model of thinking, making those automatic thoughts biased and filled with thinking errors.
Since Islam is a closed system of dogma that forbids Muslims from testing either its validity or utility, and that requires them to maintain the equilibrium at any cost, Muslims' thinking errors completely overwhelm and handicap them with dysfunctional automatic thoughts that coexist with other thinking errors.
Some of these educationally inculcated thinking errors include:
Polarized all or nothing thinking (believers and non-believers, daru-ul-Islam, dar-ul-harb)
Thinking catastrophically (all infidels, munafiq will go to hell)
Discounting the positive, accentuating the negative (all kafeers are out to get Muslims)
Reasoning emotionally (emotional justification for bombing, beheading, terrorism, and rape)
Labeling (designating all non-believers as kafeers)
Minimizing (blaming the victim, invoking denial, trying to alibi)
Mind-reading (Muslims believe they know what non-Muslims are thinking)
Filtering mental concepts (failing to see things holistically)
Over-generalization of everything (making sweeping negative conclusions such as Jews are pigs and Christians are cattle)
Personalization of everything (Muslims believe kafeers are behaving negatively because of Islam)
Myopic tunnel vision for life (seeing things only in the Islamic way)
http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/f14
Excellent. Perhaps you can tell me a bit about the five pillars and what they mean to you personally. Then please tell me what is Prophet Muhammad’s basic message and how you have incorporated it into your life.As for your first question, I have seen most Muslims be more than willing to kindly answer questions concerning their religion.
Excellent. Perhaps you can tell me a bit about the five pillars and what they mean to you personally. Then please tell me what is Prophet Muhammads basic message and how you have incorporated it into your life.
There continued to be religious discrimination and sectarian tension in society during the period covered by this report. On May 11, 2007, a group of Muslim citizens attacked Christians in the village of Bamha. In the ensuing violence, Muslims reportedly set fire to or looted 27 shops and homes of Christians and injured 12 Christians, 1 seriously. The police responded quickly to contain the incident and arrested approximately 60 people. On September 16, 2006 in Awlad Azaz village, Sohag governorate, some minor injuries occurred when Muslim and Christian villagers clashed over land use near the Monastery of Saint Shenouda. An SSIS official reportedly brokered a deal that resulted in the land being equally divided between Christians and Muslims.
I'm sure it isn't. But as my questions were extraordinarily basic she should have no difficulty answering if she has truly done any study of Islam. Don't you agree?Give her a break, will you? Do you think religious indecisiveness is fun?
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