Question

[turned around]

Hi GiventotheLord,
I,m not trying to be mean spirited but I experienced over the years that the WOF preachers are pushing the sheep hard. This idea of doing more, doing it bigger and better. The whole notion that the believer needs "super faith" is disturbing to me. If some one does not get healed its a " lack of faith" Then getting into the realm of finances give give give, many people come under condemnation when they do not see results. This can happen when it comes to healing as well.

I see Jesus as the Good Shepherd who gave his life for the sheep. This Jesus has given us his faith Galatians 2:21. I have a fellowship with Father and he supplies all my needs according to his glory in Christ Jesus. I personally found the WOF movement impossible to live up to. They have almost turned faith into a work.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

Hi GiventotheLord,
I,m not trying to be mean spirited but I experienced over the years that the WOF preachers are pushing the sheep hard. This idea of doing more, doing it bigger and better. The whole notion that the believer needs "super faith" is disturbing to me. If some one does not get healed its a " lack of faith" Then getting into the realm of finances give give give, many people come under condemnation when they do not see results. This can happen when it comes to healing as well.

I see Jesus as the Good Shepherd who gave his life for the sheep. This Jesus has given us his faith Galatians 2:21. I have a fellowship with Father and he supplies all my needs according to his glory in Christ Jesus. I personally found the WOF movement impossible to live up to. They have almost turned faith into a work.

I'm glad you don't have a 'mean' spirit in your posts. That tends to make conversations easier. Hello btw.

Who do you consider to be WOF preachers? I'd like to see the list of those who are 'pushing.' I've not personally heard anyone speak about "super faith" as you describe it.

 

[giventotheLord]

Hi, turned around

Hi GiventotheLord,
I,m not trying to be mean spirited but I experienced over the years that the WOF preachers are pushing the sheep hard. This idea of doing more, doing it bigger and better.

Please allow me to humble myself and say that I see now from your reply here today that you were not being mean spirited, but as your title thread states you were sincerely questioning. It's hard to read emotions into a simple question...I made an assumption...forgive me.

You know, this WOF message has been around since the early 1900's and embraced by many...the reason I believe is b/c there has always been an enemy that wants to takes us out. kill, steal & destroy. If Jesus were alive today He would likely draw huge crowds...Matt 4:23 says Jesus went about teaching, preaching and healing all manner of sickness & disease...and greater works would we do after he left this earth & gave us power thru His Holy Spirit.

Many WOF teachers/preachers today take hold of those we read about from the Azuza Street Revival...well, that was a big deal back then & pretty much the same today...except we in this world are almost 5 billion more in number & plus technology & the devil has increase his assaults on mankind ever more b/c his end is drawing nearer.


The whole notion that the believer needs "super faith" is disturbing to me. If some one does not get healed its a " lack of faith" Then getting into the realm of finances give give give, many people come under condemnation when they do not see results. This can happen when it comes to healing as well.

Now if you were alone in the streets w/o a dime or a prayer this message would be like Jesus walking the earth today to set you free from imminent death.

If the doctor gave me diagnosis that was life threatening or agonizing to live with & I was instructed to go to Jesus & He would ask me, believe that I am able to do this & I said yea...(Matt 9:28. 29) that would be my faith.

Someone might call that working I call it believing His Word is truth...having faith in Him...He is His Word. That's the only evidence I have is His Word. Heb 11:6


Also, wanted to add I have the same challenge with the give, give, give thing & believing for healing & not seeing results...but I know myself also having seen results in other areas in my life & that by standing on the Word...giving isn't exclusively a Christian thing...it's a principle that works whether you're saint or sinner, so that makes sense to me, b/c atheist billionaires give big & get richer doing so...tony robbins gets richer telling the world that...my problem is that I want to hear other topics b/c I don't want a big house or a Ferrari...but I do see the validity of giving to have it to give to those who don't have or blessing a mission for souls to be saved around the world where the name of Jesus is rarely mentioned...I tell you honestly the difference was the blessings came b/c I either never doubted or refuse to or just never occurred to me that God wouldn't do what He said...so I can't tell you WOF is difficult...it's mainly control over my spirit or thoughts or actions that have often been what I noticed were the problem...my will, my flesh...is not always surrendered to the will of God on things. Just sayin' that's how it often is w/ me. It seems like work b/c of lot of times I don't remember all the promises of God when I need to stand on them...not whose fault is that?


I see Jesus as the Good Shepherd who gave his life for the sheep. This Jesus has given us his faith Galatians 2:21. I have a fellowship with Father and he supplies all my needs according to his glory in Christ Jesus.

What you've said here is what all who believe should be saying & that is what we know by faith, b/c God's Word says so & we can depend on it.

I personally found the WOF movement impossible to live up to. They have almost turned faith into a work.

This scripture came to my mind, which is my favorite scripture (Ps. 138:8) from a Psalm of David. You don't have to strive to live up to any man's standards or teachings...we only have to please God...the Holy Spirit is the ultimate teacher...not every word is necessarily meant for you personally, but may be for your neighbor or a relative or the stranger God places before you. My pastor always says not to believe everything coming out his mouth as gospel b/c he's flesh & blood w/inperfections...believe God's written Word...when you sit before anyone talking to you...you might learn something even if they said one thing right & the rest was error...it's just like eating fish, you've heard that expression? you just swallow the meat & spit out the bones...God doesn't want us getting into bondage over a particular style of ministry or anything like that...if it doesn't minister right in your Spirit you aren't under any condemnation here. IICor 3:17

Stay Blessed
~T

 

[turned around]

Hi Jedi,
The one who comes to mind as being pushy, but is coming full circle is Creflo Dollar. I heard
him on a youtube broadcast saying that all non-tithers should be round up and shot. The broadcast was from his own church, and once on a well known Wof ministers telecast. There is one brother who wrote a book about the distorted gospel, stating that if believers are not gettin Deut. 28 results were doing some thing wrong. I believe that is being pushy. Under the New Covenant I,m not sure if every one is going to be a millioniare.

 

[turned around]

I,m sorry the book is called "The vanity of genetically altered Christianity.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

Hi Jedi,
The one who comes to mind as being pushy, but is coming full circle is Creflo Dollar. I heard
him on a youtube broadcast saying that all non-tithers should be round up and shot. The broadcast was from his own church, and once on a well known Wof ministers telecast. There is one brother who wrote a book about the distorted gospel, stating that if believers are not gettin Deut. 28 results were doing some thing wrong. I believe that is being pushy. Under the New Covenant I,m not sure if every one is going to be a millioniare.

Sorry. I can't believe that story about non tithers being shot. Some dishonest critic was very creative in his editing.

 

[Theodor1]

Hey Brothers and Sisters,
Why don't more WOF preachers preach sound doctrine, like Romans chapters 4-8.

Perhaps they do not want to do the praying and fasting they would need to do to be Holy, Sanctified and Set Apart for every good work to be used by God.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I have been teaching faith for 43 years.
I teach Romans 4-8 all the time.
You must not be reading many WoF teachers.
I can recommend some reading lists for you to assist your studies.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

My real point with the question was I see many WOF teachers stressing faith. But Paul stated that the real use of faith in the New Covenant is to open the the door to God's grace so we can stand. Faith truly opens the door to grace (unmerited favor). The grace that brings favor and gives me dominion over sin.

Where did you get the idea WOF does not teach on this?
I have a book named "How to never sin again" that teaches how to use faith in God to overcome all sin in your life. You CAN life a life without sin.

I teach the correct interpretation of Romans7. Romans 7 is NOT describing the current life and walk of Paul. It is describing the effects of the law on the one who is trying to be saved by the law. The law will cause the follower to repent and through themselves on the grace and mercy of God for salvation through Jesus Christ.
I teach at length from Romans 8, especially regarding the living spirit of Christ that is in us.
I also teach at length from six. When we are baptized into Christ we partake of His death, burial and Resurrection. There are many and great truths in all these chapters.
I love them.

One thing you might want to be aware of.
The reason heresy hunters say WoF only teaches on faith is because they never actually read what WoF teaches. They all just borrow the same lies and half truths from each other and never really read what people like Kenyon, Hagin, and Copeland say. If they would stop criticizing and false witnessing for a while and actually read what we teach... they might be surprised!

Truth is, the only ones obsessing on faith and healing is the heresy hunters.

 

[Andrea411]

Hey Brothers and Sisters,
Why don't more WOF preachers preach sound doctrine, like Romans chapters 4-8.

The one thing within Charismatic circles is they/we have more wolves then other Christian groups. The reason being if there is nothing happening there is nothing to counterfeit. I believe in 'standing in faith believing' and have received many miracles and answers to prayers and have seen many friends the same. I've also seen people who stood in stronger faith then I die... we don't always know the reasons and it is difficult sometimes to believe when we have doubt. I always always ask for forgiveness for doubt. That said, be discerning.... if someone strikes you as a con man or the focus is give to me and you will get XX amount of dollars... just wrong. there are some really good teachers, Hagee is good, Jack Hayford is wonderful....
Preachers can become celebrities and go off... its ego and of course the devil will attack the most influential people. Satan doesn't need to attack those preaching against the Holy Spirit - they are already doing his work ...
Believe and receive, you can only give what the Lord puts on your heart and just bc one minister teaches give, doesn't mean that is where you have to send your offering. It might be that you have a ministry you know that you want to support and of course your own church. God is not fooled and if we treat Him like an ATM we get what we asked for..... an error message.
God bless, andrea

 

[Alive_Again]

or that we are dead to the imputation, condemnation, the penalty and guilt of sin, they do not want them to know that we are dead to the law of moses (the ten commandments), they do not want them to know that we have peace with God etc

Only those who have died are dead to the penalty and guilt of sin. You can crawl off the altar any time you want.

If "you" live again (you have to choose daily), then you become an adulterer. You're only free of the first one when you're dead.

Jesus didn't do away with the law, He came to fulfill it and if you walk in the Spirit, you'll fulfill it too.

Jesus never once enabled us to go and sin and get off Scott free. God is a person and you have entered into a blood covenant. It requires all that you are and you are bought with a price.

If you transgress the covenant, you must repent or you're as guilty as everyone else. Thankfully, there is a provision for forgiveness, but you must repent (me too).

God never made it ok to murder or lie and no part of Jesus' sacrifice made this a do-able thing and to expect to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven without repenting of it is amiss.

Grace enables us to have peace with God, it doesn't MAKE us have peace with God. We enter into that with a repentant and believing heart, THEN we have peace with God. If we transgress, we become convicted. Just like a court of law (which it is), a conviction means you're due for the penalty. There will be no sin allowed in Heaven. We MUST repent, and repent we will.

It's wrong though to give people the impression that because of what Jesus did that we're no longer accountable before Him and that His Word really only applies to those who never experienced the new birth.

Sound strict and harsh? It really is. It really is, folks (really only to those who sin). Who is that? That's all of us at times. Of course God wants to be merciful but there is a misunderstanding of what grace did and any implications that the law does not apply to sin, transgressions, and anything contrary to sound doctrine are mistaken.

Only if you walk in the Spirit do you not come under the law.

Grace gives you the ability to walk in the light, it does not provide a free ride to enable us to do whatever we want. Just saying that a "true believer" wouldn't do that, doesn't change the fact that our walking in love fulfills the righteous requirement of the law, and that same righteousness demands that we do so.

 

[Andrea411]

Only those who have died are dead to the penalty and guilt of sin. You can crawl off the altar any time you want.

If "you" live again (you have to choose daily), then you become an adulterer. You're only free of the first one when you're dead.

Jesus didn't do away with the law, He came to fulfill it and if you walk in the Spirit, you'll fulfill it too.

Jesus never once enabled us to go and sin and get off Scott free. God is a person and you have entered into a blood covenant. It requires all that you are and you are bought with a price.

If you transgress the covenant, you must repent or you're as guilty as everyone else. Thankfully, there is a provision for forgiveness, but you must repent (me too).

God never made it ok to murder or lie and no part of Jesus' sacrifice made this a do-able thing and to expect to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven without repenting of it is amiss.

Grace enables us to have peace with God, it doesn't MAKE us have peace with God. We enter into that with a repentant and believing heart, THEN we have peace with God. If we transgress, we become convicted. Just like a court of law (which it is), a conviction means you're due for the penalty. There will be no sin allowed in Heaven. We MUST repent, and repent we will.

It's wrong though to give people the impression that because of what Jesus did that we're no longer accountable before Him and that His Word really only applies to those who never experienced the new birth.

Sound strict and harsh? It really is. It really is, folks (really only to those who sin). Who is that? That's all of us at times. Of course God wants to be merciful but there is a misunderstanding of what grace did and any implications that the law does not apply to sin, transgressions, and anything contrary to sound doctrine are mistaken.

Only if you walk in the Spirit do you not come under the law.

Grace gives you the ability to walk in the light, it does not provide a free ride to enable us to do whatever we want. Just saying that a "true believer" wouldn't do that, doesn't change the fact that our walking in love fulfills the righteous requirement of the law, and that same righteousness demands that we do so.

AMEN and AMEN.... good word

 

[now faith]

Hear is the terrible teaching mentioned,he is merely saying our philosophy subverts Gods word.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii9uWffveh0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Andrea411]

Hear is the terrible teaching mentioned,he is merely saying our philosophy subverts Gods word.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii9uWffveh0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

?? no problem with this snippet... I am not a watcher of television evangelists and I do not like the fact that they get 'rich' from donations. It smacks of selling Jesus but this man will reach millions of people that I never will, many will come to the Lord under his ministry... not mine.
I do not mind they sell books and other things and get rich but as long as they are honest - not living a deceitful lifestyle i.e.: adulterers, pedophiles... I don't make it my business. What is that to me or you??? God owns them and He will deal with them. JD's congregants apparently know and approve of his lifestyle. He has been investigated and from what I've seen he is not in jail and is not in the midst of scandal. May the Lord bless him and keep him.
Paul said, some preach out of selfish ambition or greed, but Paul rejoiced as long as Christ was preached. I don't know this man's heart and I will not judge it.

 

[now faith]

?? no problem with this snippet... I am not a watcher of television evangelists and I do not like the fact that they get 'rich' from donations. It smacks of selling Jesus but this man will reach millions of people that I never will, many will come to the Lord under his ministry... not mine.
I do not mind they sell books and other things and get rich but as long as they are honest - not living a deceitful lifestyle i.e.: adulterers, pedophiles... I don't make it my business. What is that to me or you??? God owns them and He will deal with them. JD's congregants apparently know and approve of his lifestyle. He has been investigated and from what I've seen he is not in jail and is not in the midst of scandal. May the Lord bless him and keep him.
Paul said, some preach out of selfish ambition or greed, but Paul rejoiced as long as Christ was preached. I don't know this man's heart and I will not judge it.

Was baffles me is if a evangelist has some wealth,it is never considered they are also good business men.
It never occurs to anyone they know how to invest their money.

They are always thought of using donations to their own benefit,they are allowed a pay check
Like anyone else running a large corporation.

Jessie has been blessed to build his ministry debt free,and it has reached millions round the world.

TV time cost a fortune in its self,let alone traveling from one meeting to another.

Its not selling Jesus,its also not musseling the ox that treads the corn.

 

[Alive_Again]

...he supplies all my needs according to his glory in Christ Jesus. I personally found the WOF movement impossible to live up to. They have almost turned faith into a work.

One thing I've noticed along the way is that most churches do not teach faith and believing as separate (yet related things). You can actually believe something and be wrong. I believe that believing and faith should go hand in hand.

If you have faith (which comes by hearing), then you can enter into that door. If you have faith, then your believing (action) sets into motion your receiving. I believe that your putting legs on your faith is done by believing and corresponding actions.

Rather than take issue with people having enough faith, I think people should be more concerned with judging themselves. Doing what God asks us is a sure way to receive (hear) more. We are to steward what we're given and then we're given more. In some cases, we just need faith; in other cases, we need obedience to take us to the next step in the process; the next instruction.

Faith truly opens the door to grace (unmerited favor).

I know a crippled man in Acts had faith to be healed and was still crippled. Fortunately, Peter was given eyes to see this and told him to rise up. It was in the rising up that he was healed. He entered into the door as he rose up in faith.

I love the faith lesson I got from Kat Kerr (a woman of faith) who was standing before "Creation Lab". She was sent to go in there and receive understanding from God, yet when she appeared there, it was a wall with no door. She had to have faith for the door to appear. So she believed God that she could enter in. Then a door appeared!

That still didn't get her in the door. She's asking, "How do I get in?!" She had faith, but she wasn't "entering in". So she said something like, "I believe I can enter in!" Then she actually entered in.

Here's the short faith lesson that was mightily instructive:

• She knew God wanted her to go in and receive.
• It wasn't until had she had faith that the door appeared.
• It wasn't until she exercised her faith (her words) that she entered in.

How many of us are waiting outside the place where God wants to take us. He told us He wanted us to enter in, yet we don't even see a door. Then when we see the way in (by faith), yet we don't really enter in?

I'll have to go find this testimony and post it here, because it perfectly demonstrates in a concise way entering in to many things of God and in the natural (from God).

They all just borrow the same lies and half truths from each other and never really read what people like Kenyon, Hagin, and Copeland say. If they would stop criticizing and false witnessing for a while and actually read what we teach... they might be surprised!

Really, this is why a discussion on whether or not WOF is valid should be more about doctrine and less about what some people do that they disapprove of.

When Paul set about to teach the church about those heroes who exercised faith and worked exploits, he didn't list a bunch of fools who were presumptuous or unlearned. He spoke of those who by faith and patience inherited the promises.

It is the enemy who would like you to be offended by people who made mistakes, got into sin; even well meaning and partly successful believers and ministers, yet were derailed by the enemy through their flesh or through lack of knowledge.

It is the enemy who points to these people because if you got the revelation (and walked in it without it getting stolen from you), then you partook of the revelation from the people He sent here (ministry gifts) to receive from. He who receives those whom God sent receives God. So those trying to weigh the validity of WOF as a "higher way" should not get distracted by those along the way who were turned aside (even temporarily).

Demonstrate for or against (from the scripture) about (supposed) doctrines of faith. That way, we can "keep our eyes on the ball" and learn.

Cast out the scoffers (and not let ourselves become one arguing either side of the coin) and open the eyes of our understanding. There shouldn't be any divisions in the body and it is better to be searching (not closed) and look to be of the same mind.

 

[now faith]

I have said this before sigh)

Give me Bible text instead of accusations with gossip.

Its a giant straw man to use some stupid example of a man,to discredit Word of Faith.

A lot of WOF people came from other denominations,due to the fact they could not reconcile what was being taught with what The Bible said.

Myself included.

 

[Alive_Again]

It's definitely not Christian. It has all sorts of "gatekeeper" symbols referencing the different religions. It opens doors and the site comes stock with deceiving spirits advertising their keep.

It's kind of like going to a paid networking seminar as far as offering "brochures" and informative content on all of these "alternatives". Choose for yourself, but you pick stuff up just by browsing through their seed. Go at your own risk.

 

[Andrea411]

A great article about the religions:

religions-in-the-world.blogspot.com

You posted this link in four sections… its not a very educational link and discusses all religions - Christianity being equal to them all??? Very odd way to say this is a great link??

Its a site that gives a paragraph on all religion and what there basic beliefs are… certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with WoF issues????