Question?

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Reading over this discussion so far it seams to me we should have a balanced view, on one hand we should have the freedom Christ has given us to respond to Him and this can be overwealming to the point that we groan, fall prostrate, laugh aloud, speak in tongues, prophesy, ect. I think the danger is when people start to seek the experience and forget about the other things which may be less flashy like studying, learning, helping each other, spending quiet time with God and His word on your own, ect. I AM NOT SAYING THE PEOPLE IN THIS DISCUSSION THREAD ARE DOING THIS, BUT of all the people participating in services like this on a regular basis, how many are there for the experience? What happens if they are not moved to the point of moaning, laughing, ect.? New Christians who experience these feelings are on fire for God and then many fall away just as quickly...I think because they missed out on learning the foundational truths which carry us through when questions, temptations, and hard times arrive as they always do.
On the other hand I don't know if we can or should judge the hearts of those involved. I will say that my opinion is that these things could and should happen but not in a coersed or staged setting but in a natural way...if it is happening every meeting or every week you may want to take a closer look.

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Such comparisons are offensive to those whose lives have been dramatically changed. They love God more they serve Him with more enthusiasim and joy. They are leading more people to the Lord. It is sick people who vomit. Those drunk by the Holy Ghost are anything but sick.

I apologize if I offended - it was not my intent - I was simply stating an assumption. As you can see, we can not assume anything - but go by what we know.

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Congratualations Br. Max, you have successfully told people they are going to hell because of the way their flesh reacts to the Holy Spirit. So much for being saved by grace ey?

Hmm...I didn't get that from what he was saying at all. I am sure he did not mean to intend that.

 

[dignitized]

You did when you said "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

No I merely pointed out that many people who mean well and think they are doing right are on their way to hell. What more - many who cry LORD LORD are not known by God.

And as far as who says it's the Holy Spirit? Can you prove it's not? When I say proof I'm not asking for what you see, hear, or have read or been told, but proof. Not what you think scripure says, but proof. Proof that these people love God more because of demons. Proof that these people are healed by demons. Proof that these people have not only learned but practice forgiveness because of demons. Gosh darnit Br Max, the way you describe it the devil sounds like he's doing more beneficial things for people than Jesus. What a strange thing that is.

I can say the same things about apiritions of Mary. *shrug* Its not up to me to prove that they are NOT of God.

It'll like you are trying to convince me that lemons are not sour at all, but really they are sweet.

Did not Jesus say that a house devided against itself could not stand? Yet you have the house of the devil standing quite well with them working against themselves. What would it benefit the kingdom of hell to bring more people to Jesus?

Ah, but this is where you say, "who say's their saved? Right?

I don't see people comming to Jesus I see people running with emotionalism and savoring the touch of strange spirits. Paul warns us against just these kinds of things in the epistles.

 

[LeeS]

I don't see people comming to Jesus I see people running with emotionalism and savoring the touch of strange spirits. Paul warns us against just these kinds of things in the epistles.

Then your eyes are on the outward appearance only and not on the heart God says, that while man looks on the outward appearance He looks at the heart. He also says that anyone who seeks Him with all their heart, will find Him. You say you're not judging hearts but yet everything you say is.

 

[dignitized]

Lee: God also says you will know what is in the heart by what comes out of thier mouth. Hissing and howling and various other gutteral noises do not tell me that they have Jesus in their hearts. I'm not judging hearts - I'm just noting what is coming out of them.

 

[LeeS]

Lee: God also says you will know what is in the heart by what comes out of thier mouth. Hissing and howling and various other gutteral noises do not tell me that they have Jesus in their hearts. I'm not judging hearts - I'm just noting what is coming out of them.

The scripture you are referrencing is "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Are we to assume by your interpretation then that every time you complain about something, or everytime you say a word you should'nt that means that Jesus is not in your heart?

What about when you're driving and someone cut's you off and you use certain language that would not come from God, does that mean you're not a christian?
What about when you go to ball games? Do you get all into like some of the guys I see? Make the noices and wear the silly clothing? There are Christian guys that do that. Does that mean that Jesus is not in their heart?

Your notations are unfair and ungodly. You are requiring that people live up to your definition of what a Christian acts like. I wonder what Jesus sounded like when He was shedding great drops of blood in the garden. I doubt it was silent. I also doubt that any of the disciples accused Him of imitating an animal just because He was groaning.

 

[imasharp]

If it gives glory to God it is of God, if it doesn't then it isn't. My pastors wife danced at church, she was actually getting air. That said, it sounds like a show. However, she has had bad problems with her legs and could barely lift them off the floor at times. She was healed on this Sunday morning, when she stepped out in faith and danced before God, not even recognizing the fact that people were all around.

 

[Lee]

If it gives glory to God it is of God, if it doesn't then it isn't. My pastors wife danced at church, she was actually getting air. That said, it sounds like a show. However, she has had bad problems with her legs and could barely lift them off the floor at times. She was healed on this Sunday morning, when she stepped out in faith and danced before God, not even recognizing the fact that people were all around.

AWESOME! Praise God!

 

[myutmost4him]

If there is no speaking in tongues...there may be a problem,
If there is not much else, there may be a problem...use discernment and good judgement but be also free to worship.

1Co 14:4 The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up, but he prophesying builds up a church.

1Co 14:19 yet in a church I desire to speak five words with my mind, so that I might also teach others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

This chapter by no means condemns speaking/praying in tongues but gives some balance.

1Co 14:26 Then how is it, brothers? When you come together, each one of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be for building up.

I tend to draw the line at meetings where there is a chaotic atmosphere, it reminds me very much of a documentary I have seen on these cult meeting of the 60's and 70's where people are falling down, jumping around, laughing, crying,ect.,ect. Speaking in tongues is not very beneficial to fellow believers but mainly is for our personal communication to God.

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[dignitized]

The scripture you are referrencing is "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." Are we to assume by your interpretation then that every time you complain about something, or everytime you say a word you should'nt that means that Jesus is not in your heart?

I am not claiming when I utter things untoward that it is GOD who is giving utterance to them. Not a valid comparison

 

[Trish1947]

judgement

If there is no speaking in tongues...there may be a problem,
If there is not much else, there may be a problem...use discernment and good but be also free to worship.

1Co 14:4 The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up, but he prophesying builds up a church.

1Co 14:19 yet in a church I desire to speak five words with my mind, so that I might also teach others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

This chapter by no means condemns speaking/praying in tongues but gives some balance.

1Co 14:26 Then how is it, brothers? When you come together, each one of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be for building up.

I tend to draw the line at meetings where there is a chaotic atmosphere, it reminds me very much of a documentary I have seen on these cult meeting of the 60's and 70's where people are falling down, jumping around, laughing, crying,ect.,ect. Speaking in tongues is not very beneficial to fellow believers but mainly is for our personal communication to God.

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

judgement

If there is no speaking in tongues...there may be a problem,
If there is not much else, there may be a problem...use discernment and good but be also free to worship.


I will give you an example that happend in our church one Sunday. I belong to a tongue speaking, Praising church. And yes it gets lively sometimes. After our minister had finished his sermon. We always had a praise time right after. This women got up and started speaking in tongues, and it went on and on and on for about 30 minutes.I was starting to feel uncomfortable about it, and so were others there. After she had finished we waited for some intrepretation to come through, nobody responded. So we thought well this I guess shouldnt have taken place at all.. Come to find out there was a new visitor from Isreal visiting our church and he asked if he could see the pastor privatley. He did not speak english, and wanted to thank him that there was someone their that spoke his language. The minister asked him "What do you mean".. He said the lady that stood up.. I understood everything that she said. He revealed that He had heard the entire message the pastor had preached in English. He got saved that day. So like I said sometimes we really are not aware exactly what the Spirit of God is doing.. But everyone else thought it was out of line.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Thank you Trish for sharing that. God really does use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

 

[Trish1947]

Thank you Trish for sharing that. God really does use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

Yes he sure does..

"QUINCH NOT THE SPIRIT"

 

[myutmost4him]

So like I said sometimes we really are not aware exactly what the Spirit of God is doing.. But everyone else thought it was out of line.

I don't think it's our job to know what the Spirit is doing...I think our responsibility is to get out of the way so the Spirit of God can work and minister in people's lives. There are many, many wonderful accounts of the Spirit moving in ways such as this, however this does not mean we never question these things. In a church I used to go to, they had people stand up during prayer and say absolutely ridiculous things as well as speaking in tongues, there were also people who spoke very edifying words, the church leadership did nothing out of fear that they would quench the Spirit and scare people off of speaking out. This went on until finally they were forced to do something when someone used harsh profanity when delivering his "message". From then on the consistory used discernment and wisdom in dealing with people speaking out during the service. There was still the freedom there for the Spirit to move and speak thru His people, but if things were said that weren't edifying, if they contradicted biblical truths, or if they just did nothing week after week and/or became distracting then the elders or pastor would correct what was said to the congregation as well as speak to the person after the service to find out what was going on. In the example of what happened in your church, God was clearly working even though others couldn't see it. Your church leadership was correct in how they handled this situation, they have a huge responsibility in prayerfully using their wisdom and discernment in these matters. God moves in mysterious ways and they/we need to allow for that as well as protecting the congregation from harm.

ps. The church I spoke of is our sister church and has had a great church planting ministry of which I belong to one.

 

[blixation]

(*Grabs wood to keep the fire burning*)

Wow! It seems like some people have had some fun on this thread....Let me just say that the Scripture teaches us to test all things and hold fast to that which is good (1 Thess 5:21). To not believe every spirit that comes, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world (1 John 4:1)...So personally, for example, the Toronto Movement, I think the spirit of laughter. etc.. is not of God and I can say such with confidence when I judge it according to Scripture. Judge not according to the apperance, but judge righteous judgments; by using Scripture!

...If it doesn't line up or agree with Scripture, throw it our the door as fast as possible because its probably not of God (for example: being slain in the spirit)...

 

[pmarquette]

And yes - I believe in uttereances of the Spirit that are not of this world, but a Spiritual language. However, I doubt Cows are represented spiritually.
Baalam's donkey preached a sermon ????
A whale , made Jonah an offer he could not refuse
A fish paid Jesus' taxes
pigs demonstrated Newton's concepts on gravity
rocks and stones praised Jesus

..... paul