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sammydee

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Hi all. On another thread I posted the following statements:

Religion works by appealing to emotion and dismissing reason.

If you are reasonable and logical you will always arrive at the conclusion that religion is a self-delusion.

It's up to you whether you choose the comforting option, or the option that is true.

Gracealone has asked me to post these in a question on this board so that christians can respond and ask me questions about them.

Hi Sammy,
Thanks for your input. I don't know if you'd be interested in starting a new thread with these statements and then be willing to ask us how we can believe in God in light of those statements. If you do please let me know. PM me if possible. I would like very much to respond to them and also to ask you some honest questions about your statements which only you can answer. I believe the rules of this forum will not allow me to respond to you within this thread but only to the original poster of the thread.
It's up to you though no pressure.. only if you feel inclined to do so.
Have a great day!
Graceaone

I ask "how can christians believe in God in light of these statements?"

Regards,
Sam
 

Key

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Hi all. On another thread I posted the following statements:
Religion works by appealing to emotion and dismissing reason.

If you are reasonable and logical you will always arrive at the conclusion that religion is a self-delusion.

It's up to you whether you choose the comforting option, or the option that is true.



Gracealone has asked me to post these in a question on this board so that christians can respond and ask me questions about them.

Sounds like a great idea.

I ask "how can christians believe in God in light of these statements?"

Regards,
Sam

That is simple, your premise is false.

and I for one, find a level of insult from this type of baseless and completely wrong outlook.

Now, that might have been a conclusion you have drawn based on the limited knowledge you have, but that just means, your knowledge is very limited, and your logic and rational "mind" are not indifferent, IE: You want this to be a conclusion, regardless of what the evidence says.

So, I would have to say, your issue is, your desire to make your opinion fact, with nothing to support it.

Maybe when you get a viable working premise, then we can discuss, right now, all I can offer you, is means to punch holes in your initial premise, which, since this is not a debate forum, I can not do, but can only answer your question.

The answer, again is, Because your Premise is Incorrect, that is why Rational and Logical people can believe in Christianity.


God Bless

Key
 
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gracealone

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Hi all. On another thread I posted the following statements:



Gracealone has asked me to post these in a question on this board so that christians can respond and ask me questions about them.



I ask "how can christians believe in God in light of these statements?"

Regards,
Sam
HI Sam,
While it may be true that within the heart of every human being there is certainly a felt need for a relationship with their maker, this does not mean that Christians choose to believe in God blindly without very persuasive reasoning. There are many things that add up to persuade the Christian into choosing to believe in God as well as to believe that Christ is God incarnate. Things like the law of human nature, fulfilled prophecies concerning Christ, eyewitness testimony, historical record,the testimony of His very life and character and the claims that He made, the changed lives of those who enter into a personal relationship with Him, the testimony of the Holy Spirit, answered prayer, miracles etc. These are but a tiny smidgen of some of the things that when examined individually add up to make the case for Christ being the Son of the Living God. There's much, much more but not enough time or space here to cover it all.
But getting back to this felt need - don't you find it strange that it should be there in the first place? It would be like being thirsty when there is no such thing as water. Scripture says that "God has planted eternity in the hearts of mankind" and this is what motivates each individual to seek Him.
But beyond that. In your last statement you implied that Christians choose God only because it is a comforting option, which is of course a very presumptious statement unsupported by provable evidence since you cannot examine the hearts and minds of individuals. Only God, can do that. But what I find more interesting is the statement you made that says we choose religion instead of what is true. Now I'm only making a guess here about what you mean by true and you can correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm thinking that you are making an absolute claim that there is no God since you identify yourself as an atheist and since you used the word true. If this is the implication of your last statement then surely you must see that you have also put yourself into a position of having a kind of faith. Faith that there is no God. This is because to say that there is no God is actually an absolute denial of the absolute. In doing so you are presupposing that you have infinite knowledge. It is the same as if I was to say to you that there is no such thing in the entire universe of space as a black rock with white spots on it. I could never prove that statement and I can't make that statement unless I am claiming to have comprehensive knowledge of the entire universe. But the atheistic claim is that there is no one out there with infinite knowledge. So your claim ends up actually positing an infinite being while at the same time denying that an infinite being exists. So what I'm trying to say is this; In making the statement that there is no God aren't you also putting youself in the position of faith? And isn't that a position of believing something that you cannot absolutely prove but instead perhaps wish or hope to be true? Isn't this pre-supposition?
Yet this is your criticism of Christianity. That we believe in God by faith and only because it satisfies a "emotional need". You are criticising our faith position while holding to a faith position yourself.
But Sam, Faith in Christ is satisfying because it fills the void that I spoke of earlier. But it does far more than that. It brings coherency and meaning to everything in life. It gives a firm foundation on which to stand instead of "having your feet firmly planted in mid-air." (M. Muggeridge) It provides a point of reference by which to measure good and evil. To quote a famous rock band, (I can't remember the name of it at moment), "Knowledge is a deadly thing when no one sets the rules.. the fate of all mankind you see is then in the hand of fools." It certainly is a satisfying thing to be a Christian, I will most readily admit that. This is why Jesus referred to Himself as "the water of life", and also "The way,The truth and The life." But again why should the thirst in the soul be there in the first place if there is no such thing as the water to quench it?
Thanks so much for letting me respond to you Sam.
Respectfully,
Gracealone
 
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psalm112

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This is false. Now, where are you getting this? What facts are you using to back this up? I could turn it around and say atheism is just an excuse to avoid realtity and set yuor own moral standard so that you won't have to face judgement. You might find that wrong. But, if I backed it up with fact, you might find you agree with me after all. Therefore, unlike you, I will back up my statements with fact. Here's something I said under the "2 things troubling this agnostic" thread that disproves evolution. If you have more questions, ask me, and I will answer.


I have done my homework on this, and I know what I'm talking about. First, let me describe evolution: a load of unproven garbage used as an excuse for mankind to set its own standard and not face the greater judgement. Well, you hear about it all the time. No one ever debates it anymore; we take for granted that it's true. Let me be clear about one thing though. There is such a thing as biological evolution that occurs, usually in more short-term forms than the "billions" of years you hear about. I won't go into that, though, but rather to the real debate, which is whether people and other creatures on earth evolved from more primitive creatures. To start, this is, in fact, totally false.

Now, you hear it all the time. References of evolution are used all the time, but rarely is it actually discussed or debated anymore. In school, they tell you that the earth is billions of years old, that we all evolved from primitive beings. But tell me, outside of a Christian environment, do you ever hear anything opposing it? No. Why not hear both sides? Because evolutionists are standing on a very delicate and fragile belief that can be easily broken. Either they take it for granted and don't really know much about it, or they know enough about it that they try to censor any opposition to it. Why are they so nervous about an alternative view being argued? They know how many gaping holes are left in the theory (no, it is not a proven fact), and they don't want them to be realized. Atheism controls almost all of television and the media. They try to cover up alternative theories. They try to get you to take it for granted and not ask questions. How often do you hear references to or arguments of beliefs other than evolution? And so, people naturally assume that evolution is true because no one says otherwise, and it seems to be taken for granted everywhere you go. Some people are innocently fooled and try to mix it with the Bible, because they're both true, right? Why do they believe it even though they believe in the Bible? Because they learned it in school. They saw it on TV. Somebody told them, and no one told them otherwise.

Now is the fun part, where I will disprove evolution (as defined earlier: creatures changing over billions of years) scientifically. Here's something you've never heard about: the earth has pressure built up underneath its crust, which gradually increases. If our planet was any older than 10,000 years, it would explode. The theory of evolution states that humans, as well as other creatures, evolved over millions of years to what they are today. If the earth is, in fact no more than 10 years old, that does not give enough time for this gradual process to finish. Well, that takes care of evolution by itself, but don't worry. I have more where that came from. Evolutionist scientists have labeled different periods in the supposed billions of years of the earth's existence (eg. jurassic, cretacious, etc.) by looking at layers of rock in the Grand Canyon. Each period of time is based on one of those layers (eg. the jurassic layer formed during the jurassic era). The funny thing is, they're in different orders in other parts of the world! In Canada, for example, the newest layer is on the bottom, and the oldest is on top. Therefore, this is not accurate. Here's something else they don't tell you. We have no scientific dating methods that work accurately on objects that have been dead for very long! Carbon dating, one of the most trusted scientific dating methods, was tested on a seal that had been dead for 30 years. It said it was thousands of years old! A group of Christian scientists tested tree bark from a living tree, and it said it was 10,000 years old! Other dating methods have proven to be useless for things that have been dead for very long, too. Therefore, when evolutionists point to dating results of rock, fossils, etc., they're information is wrong. Another thing you never hear about is that the theory of evolution pretty much went out the window at the discovery of DNA for most scientists who actually know what they're talking about. Fossils don't even take millions of years to form. Many objects have been found to be fossilized even though they are only e few decades old. For example, a fossilized cowboy boot was found in Texas. The pattern was visible on one side, so the scientists took it to different companies. One claimed the design as one they used in the 1950's! A glass bottle and ceramic bowl were found fossilized in a shipwreck that occurred in the 1980's! I have many other examples, but it would take too long to say them all. Well, there's plenty of scientific evidence. To anyone reading this: if you have more questions, I have more answers. Feel free to ask.

Here's a logical debunking of evolution. If there is no God, where did everything come from? If evolution is true, there was no creation, no beginning. If there was no beginning, that means there has been an infinite period of time for everything to evolve. If everything has been evolving for eternity, it should all be perfect by now. Why don't creatures still evolve today? We know people have not changed since well beyond Jesus' time. Why have we not evolved at all during the last 2 thousand plus years? The theory of evolution involves not just time, but a series of random and incredibly unlikely scientific accidents. Everything about our world - our distance from the sun, the amount of water on the earth, the atmosphere, the occurence of life, the size - all ties together so perfectly that no scientific conclusion can be reached without the reality of God. Oh, here's a cool story. So I went to a store and bought a but of springs, screws, gears, small metal plates, etc. As I was walking home, I shook the bag the whole way. When I got home, I reached in the bag and pulled out a pocket watch. All the pieces had coincidentally fallen together just right as I was shaking it that it made a working, ticking watch. You don't believe me do you? Well doesn't evolution seem just as outrageous? If the earth was 1 inch closer to the sun, we would burn up, and we would freeze if it was an inch farther away. Along with the perfect amount of water, the sudden occurrence of life, the perfect size, and the right atmosphere all at once, there is no way it could be an accident!

Now for the Biblical part. To form an opinion, you need to know all the facts from both sides of the argument, and something to back up your opinion. If you believe in God, and you believe in the Bible, you shouldn't need anything else. Once you have a solid belief in the Bible, the answers you find in it will stand firm upon that foundation. The Bible says that in the Creation, God created the universe and everything in it in 6 days, and rested on the seventh. It says that all He had to do was speak, and it was there. He said, "Let there be light", and there was light. When He made creatures, He did not say, "Let there be creatures that will, after billions of years, become exactly the way I want them." Why would He bother? Why make an earth that spends more time becoming just right than actually having people on it? You cannot mix evolution and the Bible. They conflict; they are incompatible. They can't both be real at the same time. And since we just ruled evolution out, there's one thing left.
 
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psalm112

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Here's something else relevant I posted under "Criteria". Again, come to me if you have questions.

Now, if you talk to someone who is atheist or agnostic, they will say over and over the words "don't care", "I", and "me". Well, that's because they don't want it to be real, not that they don't think it is. Everyone, whether they realize or say it, know there is something else. Why do you think people are afraid of death? It's the concept that has been placed within all people that there is an absolute, a definite, something beyond our simple knowledge that is worth fearing and worrying about. Even if they tell themselves that there is nothing after the world as we know it, they still fear death. Why? Because they know there is something else, that something beyond their understanding will happen.

Well, if we all know, why do they still say there is nothing after this life, that it's all a scientific coincidental accident? Because they don't want it to be true. Why? Because it gives them an excuse to do whatever they want. Again come the "me" and "I". It's all about me. I can do whatever I want. If this is all a chemical accident as evolution says, there is no absolute truth, no right or wrong, and they can live their life for their own selfish gains. They can do whatever they feel like without facing future consequences. The funny thing is, they usually still have basic morals (eg. don't lie, don't steal, don't murder). Why is that if there is no absolute law? Well, funny thing, we all have not only the concept of an absolute programmed in our heads, but also right and wrong and guilt. Isn't it funny how the two go together? It must be a chemical accident like evolution claims, right? No, it doesn't make sense. Therefore, there must be an absolute, a final law, something else beyond our understanding that sets limits for us. There must be some being greater than our understanding.

Here's a good analogy. Think of a field. You are a little kid. All you want is to play in a big field. The atheists and agnostics say, "Here you go, an infinitely endless field to play in. You can go anywhere you want in this field." The problem is that we all, deep down, want a fence. We want an absolute so we can know where we are. We want to have a sense of importance and reason. With a fence, even if we were on the wrong sideof it, we would be somewhere. Now, we are all on the wrong side, but Jesus says, "I have the key, and I will open the gate and let you back over here if you want me to." Why? Because He loves us! With His unconditional love, we feel important. We feel sure of something. We find that that void within us that we try to fill with earthly things that will corrode and ruin has been filled!

Now, what about other religions? I guarantee you, anyone who has another religion either doesn't take it seriously or still does not feel truly complete. They are trying to fill that hole with ice, which seems solid but eventually melts away. But Jesus fills it with cement, which may seem wet and useless at first but becomes solid and stays. I promise you, Christianity is the only consistent belief that really feels real.
 
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psalm112

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Oh, and one more thing. Check out The Case For a Creator, The Case For Christ, and especially The Case For Faith all by Lee Strobel. They are great books in which the author intellectually and logically proves Christianity. You should be able to find them at your local library.
 
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psalm112

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Sorry to keep posting over and over, but I keep thinking of more things to say. And what I have to say is this:

God loves you more than you could ever imagine. He is the most real thing that could be. He is beyond our weak intellectual comprehension. How dare you deny Him for your own selfish gains? He loves you so much, He became mortal just to die for your sins. How dare you deny Him after that? Who are you anyway? In Job, God says:

38:2-7
“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

40:7-9
“Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right? Have you an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?”
Who are you to question God? Were you there in the earth's creation? Do you truly have the power to challenge God? How dare you even to think so! God said this to Job when Job was challenging Him without anything to back himself up? Then God broke through in a whirlwind and gave him a reality check. I hope this is helpful. God bless you!
 
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salida

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Sammydee-

Three of these statements are false.

Religion isn't based on "emotion" - but a real spiritual experience that can't be denied. It would be like denying your own name.

Arrive at a logical conclusion? I have - that is why I'm a christian. First spiritually and then intellectually. Read Evidence Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in a court of law concerning biblical facts) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest).

The comforting option is sometimes different from the truth-depends who you are talking to.
 
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MrDave

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Dear SammyDee:

I think the atheist belief system of all the belief systems is the most illogical and unreasonable belief system.

Here's why:

If what you believe is RIGHT, then mine is wrong BUT I end up exactly the same as you? No difference. Reasonable statement? Yes or NO.

If any of the other belief system but yours or mine is RIGHT, then again you and I end up exactly the same. No difference. Reasonable statement? Yes or No.

So far you and I are in the same boat.

BUT NOW:

If what I believe is RIGHT then all others are WRONG. I know what my end result will be and I know what your end result will be. I definitely like my end result better then I like yours.

The Bible says "Come now, let us reason together..."

So who's the one not using "logic and reason"? To be an atheist or agnostic, is to not even be in the game.

Your future is in dire straits if: Orthodox Jews or Islam or Christianity or Jehovah's Witness or Mormon's or any other belief system with a GOOD AND BAD scenario is true.

Reason and logic would lead a person to consider any other option better then the one with NO OPTIONS.

An atheist is like the people on the Titantic that believed the Titantic could not sink, so did not even try to get into a life boat, even after the ice berg struck.

A Christian is a person on the Titantic that not only believes the Titantic can sink, but that it will sink and that only one lifeboat will float and gets in that lifeboat before the iceberg hits. Then the Christian tries to get you to join him in that same lifeboat while there is still time.

An atheist or agnostic is a person standing on the deck of the Titantic trying to convince everyone else to get out of the lifeboats!!!!

I should choose your option and give up mine??? Nah,

DECISION DETERMINES DESTINY
 
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TwinCrier

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sammydee, seeing as you're young, have you ever had an adult tell you that what you feel isn't real? Tell you it's not love, just a crush, tell you you're not hurting when you're in pain, etc? Annoying isn't it. How do they know what's inside of you? That's how Christians feel. God is real. We know He exists, we have a personal relationship with Him. Having a non-believer claim God is only out imaginary friend doesn't make His existence less real to us. There isn't anything an atheist teen say write that will make me turn from what I know. You would have as much luck convincing me that I don't like chocolate. You haven't experienced God yet, maybe you never will, maybe you don't want to.
 
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Divinah

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You know...the thing with you atheists is... you
"dont believe" with a little too much zeal.

If I did not believe in something, I don't know that I would care if anyone else did or not...Nor would I desire they know that I don't (and all the intricate dynamics that thereinlie), Nor would I want to know what they think about my disbelief and debate it endlessly online.

MY CONCLUSION, Mr. Scientific Facts:
THOU DOEST PROTEST TOO MUCH!

Why not go to the source...Ask God.
Seek him daily in prayer and word, and he'll
reveal himself to you, alright.

Y'know, your already here for a reason, don't ya?

Cause, with your vast resource of information and knowledge surpassing what any Christian might possess, why would you lower yourself to argue with them all day. Well, well well...something to think about, huh?

Don't get mad...I do this to everyone and trust me I am being very kind...too many people have been telling me I'm mean and that's JUST not true.

I am a demonslaying, meateating Christian...so, what's a little atheist, but lunch?
^_^ :tutu: ^_^
AhaHaHA, just kidding...
Okay, that was totally meant in humor, hope you take it for the joke it is.
:thumbsup:
GOD BLESS and I will pray for you!

 
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