Question...

[MariaRegina]

You don't have an issue with Rome declaring Mary to be the Mediatrix of all Graces, and the Co-Redmptrix?

Michael,

I heard that the pope shelved the declaration of Mary being the Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all Graces. Did you hear otherwise?

 

[MariaRegina]

The biggest obstacles for me and for several other Eastern Catholics were the Vatican I dogmas of Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy. Once I read the source doctrines, I was absolutely stunned. This was not taught to me when I was in elementary school. I had only received a watered down version.

So, several of us crossed over to Orthodoxy upon reading the complete documents from Vatican I.

 

[Vedant]

The only "true Catholic Church" is the Orthodox Church. Orthodox means correct in teaching. If you are NOT Orthodox, you are heterodox-mixed in teaching.

orthodox (lowercase o) means right teaching, or more appropriately, "the way" what early Christians called themselves to be a part of.

Orthodox (capital O) is what is meant to be Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, which I have already asserted, have kept to traditional practices of Christianity more than the Roman Catholics.

catholic (lowercase c) means universal.

Catholic (capital C) means part of the Catholic church, of which the Roman Catholics make up the majority and Eastern Catholics make up the minority.

Catholics assert themselves to be orthodox as much as the Orthodox assert themselves to be orthodox.

Apostolic means that holy ordination has continued uninterrupted since the ordination of the original 12 apostles...I know you don't believe the Catholic church to have valid apostolic succession, but I believe they do have it.

Finally, I assert that both Catholic churches and Orthodox churches are catholic, orthodox, and apostolic.

ay...this is getting complicated.

 

[Vedant]

The biggest obstacles for me and for several other Eastern Catholics were the Vatican I dogmas of Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy. Once I read the source doctrines, I was absolutely stunned. This was not taught to me when I was in elementary school. I had only received a watered down version.

So, several of us crossed over to Orthodoxy upon reading the complete documents from Vatican I.

Aria,

I agree with you.

 

[joyfulthanks]

Oy vey! Only in TAW can a thread on non-procreative marital relations turn into a theological discussion of papal supremacy, etc. I am partly to responsible for that. Sorry to have derailed the thread, guys. It's an interesting one nonetheless.

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

 

[Vedant]

Oy vey! Only in TAW can a thread on non-procreative marital relations turn into a theological discussion of papal supremacy, etc. I am partly to responsible for that. Sorry to have derailed the thread, guys. It's an interesting one nonetheless.

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

hehe, whatever, I've learned so much in the past couple months that it's time I come back to TAW to discuss further...

 

[MariaRegina]

hehe, whatever, I've learned so much in the past couple months that it's time I come back to TAW to discuss further...

Please do declare yourself to be an Orthodox inquirer as soon as possible so that you can more fully engage with us in dialog.

See if you can get a copy of Michael Whelton's book on the Papacy from Regina Orthodox Press. I forgot the title. However, maybe Michael remembers it.

 

[Vedant]

I am an Orthodox inquirer, I have been since February this year.

I am also a Catholic inquirer, I have been since about December last year.

=)

 

[kamikat]

I have a problem with ALL ROMAN CATHOLIC DOGMAS about Mary other than the fact that she was Jesus' mother.

I, too, had problems with Catholic teachings about Mary, especially the Immcalulate Conception. This is where dogmatic development is used by the Catholic church to justify it's incorrect teachings. If all humans are born with Original Sin, then Mary MUST be made special or different in order to be pristine enough to carry our Lord in her womb. This sets up the Catholic church for setting her higher than just as Theotokos. Yes, sheis the holiest of saints and the ark of the new covenant, but by making her conception different from the rest of mankind is incorrect. If you want to read some truly concerning practices involving Mary, see http://www.memorare.com/mary/totalcons.html In this devotions, Catholics are called on to "surrender oneself in the manner of a slave to Mary".
When I began inquiring into Orthodoxy, I had a real aversion to prayer to Mary because of things I witnessed in my own family. Since I have begun steeping in the Orthodox Church, I have come to love and honor her the way she was meant to be loved and honored.
kamikat

 

[joyfulthanks]

Yes, sheis the holiest of saints and the ark of the new covenant, but by making her conception different from the rest of mankind is incorrect.

Is it really an Orthdox teaching that she is the ark of the new covenant? I have heard Catholics say this, and the occasional Orthodox, but the early church fathers that I have read called Christ the Ark of the Covenant.

I kind of thought this teaching came around with Scott Hahn.

Anybody know the scoop on this?

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

 

[kamikat]

Finally, I assert that both Catholic churches and Orthodox churches are catholic, orthodox, and apostolic.

ay...this is getting complicated.

It's only as complicated as you make it out to be. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are so different that it is impossible for them to both be orthodox (big o or little o) and Apostolic at the same time. Either the one left the other four and took off on his own, creating new dogmas and doctrines that were not taught by the Apostles or the four rebelled against the one and the Holy Spirit left and they began to stagnate without the Holy Spirit's guidance. This is what the churches teach about each other. If you decide to become Catholic, this is what you will have to accept as truth about Orthodoxy. If you become Orthodox, this is what you have to believe about Catholicism. Right now, you are playing each side. At some point, it will come to a very painful and tough decision. I know, I've been there and very recently.
I will pray for you because I know this will be hard for you.
kamikat

 

[kamikat]

Is it really an Orthdox teaching that she is the ark of the new covenant? I have heard Catholics say this, and the occasional Orthodox, but the early church fathers that I have read called Christ the Ark of the Covenant.

I kind of thought this teaching came around with Scott Hahn.

Anybody know the scoop on this?

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

I will admit that I may be using incorrect terms. I was raised Catholic. I believe that Christ's death on the cross is the new Convenant, since she bore him in her womb, she is the Ark. Please, my Orthodox brothers and sisters, correct me if I'm wrong. Even if it's Catholic teaching only, it didn't start with Scott Hahn. I remember this from CCD classes as a kid.

kamikat

 

[joyfulthanks]

Here's the only ECF I could find on it (Irenaeus):

"The ark is declared to be a type of the body of Christ, which is both pure and immaculate." Irenaeus

"Just as the ark was gilded both inside and out with pure gold, so likwise was the body of Christ pure and resplendent." Irenaeus

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

 

[MariaRegina]

I will admit that I may be using incorrect terms. I was raised Catholic. I believe that Christ's death on the cross is the new Convenant, since she bore him in her womb, she is the Ark. Please, my Orthodox brothers and sisters, correct me if I'm wrong. Even if it's Catholic teaching only, it didn't start with Scott Hahn. I remember this from CCD classes as a kid.

kamikat

The Theotokos is called the Holiest of Holies because the Holy of Holies contained the Ark (the presence of God) and God dwelt within her so that she became a Holy Living Temple of God.

And we all become Holy Temples at Holy Communion.

 

[Vedant]

I, too, had problems with Catholic teachings about Mary, especially the Immcalulate Conception. This is where dogmatic development is used by the Catholic church to justify it's incorrect teachings. If all humans are born with Original Sin, then Mary MUST be made special or different in order to be pristine enough to carry our Lord in her womb. This sets up the Catholic church for setting her higher than just as Theotokos. Yes, sheis the holiest of saints and the ark of the new covenant, but by making her conception different from the rest of mankind is incorrect. If you want to read some truly concerning practices involving Mary, see http://www.memorare.com/mary/totalcons.html In this devotions, Catholics are called on to "surrender oneself in the manner of a slave to Mary".
When I began inquiring into Orthodoxy, I had a real aversion to prayer to Mary because of things I witnessed in my own family. Since I have begun steeping in the Orthodox Church, I have come to love and honor her the way she was meant to be loved and honored.
kamikat

Kamikat, again, I agree AND disagree with you. The immaculate conception is completely non-sensical from the Eastern point of view, but can make sense from the Western point of view. In this sense, I am acknowledging that the Eastern Orthodox perception of Mary is the same as the Roman Catholic perception of her, but by using different terms of description.

I no longer can believe that Roman Catholics "added to theology" but rather defended it from people that wanted to take away from it. From this standpoint, it is very savvy for the East to affirm that there is no immaculate conception of Mary, because in Eastern thinking, there is no original sin. However, in Western thinking original sin is prevalent, and therefore an immaculate conception is necessary in order to have the same belief about Theotokos that the Eastern Orthodox Christians believe.

 

[Vedant]

It's only as complicated as you make it out to be. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are so different that it is impossible for them to both be orthodox (big o or little o) and Apostolic at the same time. Either the one left the other four and took off on his own, creating new dogmas and doctrines that were not taught by the Apostles or the four rebelled against the one and the Holy Spirit left and they began to stagnate without the Holy Spirit's guidance. This is what the churches teach about each other. If you decide to become Catholic, this is what you will have to accept as truth about Orthodoxy. If you become Orthodox, this is what you have to believe about Catholicism. Right now, you are playing each side. At some point, it will come to a very painful and tough decision. I know, I've been there and very recently.
I will pray for you because I know this will be hard for you.
kamikat

No. I will assert and will continue to assert that the five original major patriarchs, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, and Rome make up the one true church, not either Rome or the other four. What we have today is a schismed version of that original church which is recorded in the Bible. You may have found it difficult to choose between the two, but I don't see joining either Orthodoxy or Catholicism as a painful choice, but rather a personal choice. I know in my heart that we will be in communion with each other in heaven, kamikat, and by that we shall resolve what the one true church is.

I would have expected more open-mindedness from Eastern Orthodoxy about this matter.

 

[rusmeister]

My dinky little weigh-in here...
To Grace - glad you didn't leave! You're respectful, not bashing us EO people, just honestly asking - I don't see who has a problem with that.
It's mostly been said in different ways, but re: the marital question - it really is a matter of individual conscience and not Orthodox doctrine - thus, the "ask your priest" mantra. Once you've gotten through the doctrine, there are tons of little questions of life that remain. On those, we are not to judge our brother, and to seek guidance for our own behavior. Uh, does that make sense? Has that question been answered?


My experience on "guarding the Chalice" has been more liberal than yours, Aria. I've never seen a priest question someone, then turn them away. They read the Communion prayer aloud and they DO say (generally at Easter, Christmas and other major services when a lot of non-regulars show up) that Communion is only for Orthodox Christians who have prepared for Communion. They don't engage in personal judgement of people after that warning (although I can imagine an extreme situation where, if they definitely know a person is really unprepared and approaches the Chalice anyway, they could (and should) turn them away).

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I would have expected more open-mindedness from Eastern Orthodoxy about this matter.

The Church of Christ is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Individuals and groups may depart, but She remains whole.

M.

 

[Vedant]

The Church of Christ is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. Individuals and groups may depart, but She remains whole.

M.

AMEN!!!

 

[MariaRegina]

My experience on "guarding the Chalice" has been more liberal than yours, Aria. I've never seen a priest question someone, then turn them away. They read the Communion prayer aloud and they DO say (generally at Easter, Christmas and other major services when a lot of non-regulars show up) that Communion is only for Orthodox Christians who have prepared for Communion. They don't engage in personal judgement of people after that warning (although I can imagine an extreme situation where, if they definitely know a person is really unprepared and approaches the Chalice anyway, they could (and should) turn them away).

The priest will ask the person,

Are you Orthodox?
What is the name of your bishop?​

If the person is not Orthodox, and is turned away, we don't even know, because the priest will let them kiss the chalice and then instruct them to see him afterwards.

The only way we found out was because the priest brought up the incident at a parish council meeting or at a parish retreat when we discussed such things.

I once had a Greek Orthodox Bishop ask me that question and even question the pastor if I was Orthodox. When the pastor reassured him that I was, then the Bishop served me Holy Communion.

I was wearing a choir robe and the Bishop (from Cyprus) had thought that only protestants wore choir robes. This he related to me after the Divine Liturgy when he apologized for any embarrassment he may have caused me.​

I think the Orthodox priests here in California have a sense on who is Orthodox and who is not from the person's demeanor, although I have known some Eastern Catholics who will attend an Eastern Orthodox parish from time to time and receive Holy Communion with no questions asked.