Question...

[EricTheRed]

There are not 2 truths. One most be right since the Holy Spirt cannot contradict himself

 

[Vedant]

They are more than schismed, for they teach different things. If we were only in schism, then we would not have two different doctrines, two teachings, two faiths. Two faiths is something hard to reconcile with a God who is Truth. If Christ is Truth, as He says, then this is no mere relativistic truth, whereby you say A, he says B, and you are both "right" as long as you are each happy. If Christ is Truth, and there is only one Truth as there is one God, then if one says A and another says B, one has to be wrong.
This is not schism. This is two different faiths. Why else would we even have two different Creeds, differing in as important a matter as who God has revealed Himself to be?

*sigh*

Explaining Roman Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy is as difficult as explaining Eastern Orthodoxy to Roman Catholics. They are very different and very much the same, but for some reason, I only see this. Ahhh well, it's by Orthodoxy that I've learned so much about Catholicism and by Catholicism that I've learned so much about Orthodoxy, I cherish both.

 

[Michael G]

This is your forum, I respect your beliefs, and I cannot debate here, so I will leave this as that. If you wish to educate me more about Orthodoxy, please PM me Michael, because above all else, I value learning, wherever that may lead me. Please do not assert that I am ignorant of history. I have read history and continue to do so, but never assert that I am an expert, only that I have opinions, which are subject to change of course.

That all being said, I believe the church to be what has been separated through time, but I don't believe the church is broken, in East or West, only separated. They are not broken, because they don't cease to function, and I do see the schism capable of being healed, Godwilling.

Thank you for your posts.

How can that be when the Western Church as early as the 1100s began to turn it's back on the 7th Ecumenical Council and when the Western Church has slowly removed everything Orthodox from their Liturgy until it now resembles a Lutheran Service? I see you have read a western view of history that says the Church is separated because the Eastern view is that the Church split long ago and that the only true faith is those who preach Orthodoxy. I suggest you read an Orthodox take on the middle ages. This might enlighten you greatly.

 

[Michael G]

*sigh*

Explaining Roman Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy is as difficult as explaining Eastern Orthodoxy to Roman Catholics. They are very different and very much the same, but for some reason, I only see this. Ahhh well, it's by Orthodoxy that I've learned so much about Catholicism and by Catholicism that I've learned so much about Orthodoxy, I cherish both.

NOT REALLY! I was brought up Roman Catholic. I studied in Roman Catholic seminary prior to my embracing Orthodoxy. I understand Roman Catholicism better than most Roman Catholics understand it. And yet, I choose Orthodoxy.

 

[Vedant]

How can that be when the Western Church as early as the 1100s began to turn it's back on the 7th Ecumenical Council and when the Western Church has slowly removed everything Orthodox from their Liturgy until it now resembles a Lutheran Service? I see you have read a western view of history that says the Church is separated because the Eastern view is that the Church split long ago and that the only true faith is those who preach Orthodoxy. I suggest you read an Orthodox take on the middle ages. This might enlighten you greatly.

People here are misconstruing my support of both Orthodoxy and Catholicism to be a support of Catholicism. That is not the case.

 

[Vedant]

.

 

[MariaRegina]

"breaking of the Church into twain"

It is this portion that I distinctly remember reading on an Orthodox website, which was not written by you.

 

[Michael G]

People here are misconstruing my support of both Orthodoxy and Catholicism to be a support of Catholicism. That is not the case.

IF you do a thorough study of history, which I have done, having a BA History, you will see that Orthodoxy and Catholicsm are mutually exclusive. If I must, I will start a thread discussing just how mutually exclusive each other are.

 

[Vedant]

My point is that they didn't start out that way.

 

[Matrona]

Vedant, please understand that I don't want to belittle your beliefs, but you have to realize that Roman Catholicism teaches things that are incompatible with the Orthodox faith. For instance, we cannot simultaneously have a God wherein the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone and from the Father and the Son. It's logically impossible.

It appears that you didn't write this passage because we don't use 'twain' in modern English. Could you please site your reference so that we can read more. Thanks.

Nice edit.

Many people use "archaic" expressions in everyday language. It might be considerate to do some swynke before making accusacciouns.

 

[Michael G]

My point is that they didn't start out that way.

The schism began about 382 and was formalized in 1054. We fought the schismatic trend of Rome for almost 700 years before we finally came to the conclusion there was nothing we could do to stop it.

 

[MariaRegina]

My point is that they didn't start out that way.

And Martin Luther started out as a cradle Catholic. He was such a devout Catholic that he became an Augustinian Priest.

Yet he was responsible for starting the Lutheran Church.

People change, and unfortunately, so do some doctrines.

 

[Vedant]

And my final point, is that church, is all Christians here on earth and those in heaven. I will not say that only Orthodox Christians are part of the full church of God, because only God knows on an individual basis who strives to be in communion with Him.

I'm going to bed, enough of this thread, it's irking me. If you want to PM me about it, I would like to know more, as always.

 

[kamikat]

If it's the two separating, then there is no Church, and God lied when He said it would withstand unbroken forever until His coming again. It cannot be a breaking of the Church into twain, for that destroys God's statement to us about His Church.

I used to feel the same way as Vedant. For a while, it cost me my faith in Christ. If neither church is complete and whole without the other, then Hell did prevail and Christ was not who He said He was. At some point, when choosing between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, one has to acknowledge that there is only one true church that has with stood the test of time. If you go over to OBOB and post the same thing you've posted here about both churches being valid apostolic churches and it's just personal preference, they'll react the same as we did, or they'll just try to steer you to Eastern Catholic.

kamikat

 

[kamikat]

*sigh*

Explaining Roman Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy is as difficult as explaining Eastern Orthodoxy to Roman Catholics. They are very different and very much the same, but for some reason, I only see this.

Vedant, you may not realize this, but there are several of us here that were raised Catholic. You are not trying to explain Roman Catholicism to Orthodox people who don't know about Catholicism. We lived it prior to coming to understand that Orthodoxy is the one true faith handed down by the Apostles.

kamikat

 

[Dust and Ashes]

Vedant seems to be coming at this from a Protestant perspective so it's understandable that he won't see the significant differences as being very significant. When I was Baptist/Charismatic, I didn't see the contradictory theological differences between my doctrines and the doctrines of other Protestants as being significant. I honestly thought we all believed basically the same thing and where we differed was on points that weren't important.

Vedant, it appears to me from a quick read through the thread, that you are loathe to choose between Orthodoxy and Catholicism because of each's claim to exclusivity. You seem to be applying some Protestant relativism to the situation to make them look like just two parts of one Church with no significant differences.

 

[rusmeister]

Thank you, Kamikat!
(Rusmeister is sad that there is quibbling and semi-debating here )
I've been active on another forum - my favorite author, CS Lewis - but I'm feeling like some of you have felt in GT (or GH, as it is lovingly called), and am thinking about dropping out of it altogether. Debating saps my energy and spiritual state. Most people don't really listen to others; they just lay out their own points of view, and very few will examine a reasoned POV that disagrees with theirs and actually change their mind based on argument. Unfortunately, we kinda insist on getting there on our own.
So people just shout (or the electronic equivalent) at each other, you have this sour feeling in your gut, and nobody gets anywhere. TAW feels like the last refuge from that, where we share the same Faith, which shapes everything in how we live our lives. So when I see it here, I get blue... No, wait, that's purple.

 

[Matrona]

And my final point, is that church, is all Christians here on earth and those in heaven. I will not say that only Orthodox Christians are part of the full church of God, because only God knows on an individual basis who strives to be in communion with Him.

I'm going to bed, enough of this thread, it's irking me. If you want to PM me about it, I would like to know more, as always.

The question of who can be saved is a separate question from 'who is part of the Orthodox Church?'. Just because the RCC teaches wrong doctrines doesn't mean nobody in it can be saved. But the Orthodox Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, and given the opportunity, you have to trust your salvation to her, otherwise you risk being led down one of the many heretical paths that lead away from God.

 

[kamikat]

TAW feels like the last refuge from that, where we share the same Faith, which shapes everything in how we live our lives. So when I see it here, I get blue... No, wait, that's purple.

I'm sorry if I have contributed to that.

kamikat

 

[Michael G]

Vedant, you may not realize this, but there are several of us here that were raised Catholic. You are not trying to explain Roman Catholicism to Orthodox people who don't know about Catholicism. We lived it prior to coming to understand that Orthodoxy is the one true faith handed down by the Apostles.

kamikat

Yes, exactly. Been there, done that, understand it better than I care to, and don't want to return any time soon.