Question...

[interventiondynamic]

ATTN MODS, please delete this thread if it violates forum rules in any way or is too obscene, but I just can't ask this question in person to another person...thank God for the internet.

What is the Eastern Orthodox belief about non-procreative marital acts between people who are married. I am not talking about birth control.

Roman Catholics believe it to be a sin and against God's will.

 

[joyfulthanks]

Roman Catholics believe it to be a sin and against God's will.

Actually, I recently saw a question about this on CatholicAnswers. It was answered by the staff apologists, and not just by some Joe off the street, so I think it is probably pretty accurate.

They said that the type of non-procreative marital acts that I suspect you are talking about are okay, as long as they are done connected to, or in the context of a procreative marital act. In other words, they're okay if they're done along with, and not done in place of the procreative act.

Does that make any sense?

As for the Orthodox view, I have no idea.

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

This is a matter between a couple and their Priest.

Rdr Moses

 

[rusmeister]

*Sigh* I doubt you'll get the clear answer you're looking for here. I'd say it's mainly a matter of conscience and talking to your spiritual father. But if you want a specific teaching, you may find various opinions on what is natural and what isn't.

 

[Matrona]

What is the Eastern Orthodox belief about non-procreative marital acts between people who are married. I am not talking about birth control.

There's no explicit doctrinal or dogmatic prohibition against it. Some Orthodox ethicists would say married couples shouldn't, but other Orthodox ethicists would disagree. An Orthodox couple wondering about this sort of thing would ask their priest.

BTW, I know what you're talking about, but the non-procreative nature of the acts wouldn't necessarily be the reason for their prohibition.

 

[Philip]

I am beginning to wonder if we need a sticky thread with a list of question that can be answered 'Ask your priest'. In the interest of saving bandwidth, perhaps we should list the questions that can't be answered that way.

 

[joyfulthanks]

I am beginning to wonder if we need a sticky thread with a list of question that can be answered 'Ask your priest'. In the interest of saving bandwidth, perhaps we should list the questions that can't be answered that way.

I think you guys need a new slogan: "Orthodoxy - Ask Your Priest"

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

 

[Michael G]

I think you guys need a new slogan: "Orthodoxy - Ask Your Priest"

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

Not a bad idea at all!

 

[interventiondynamic]

Does anyone know any priest that I can E-mail about this then? All the ones that I have asked questions to (about other things) have ignored me.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Where are you from friend? Perhaps one of us could direct you to a good priest in your area.

 

[kamikat]

Does anyone know any priest that I can E-mail about this then? All the ones that I have asked questions to (about other things) have ignored me.

Have you tried looking in your local phone directory for a local church? Your best bet is to make an appointment and meet with a priest in person.

kamikat

 

[icxn]

...What is the Eastern Orthodox belief about non-procreative marital acts between people who are married. I am not talking about birth control.

I think the following quote from St. Maximus should give you an answer:

Vice is the wrong use of our conceptual images of things, which leads us to misuse the things themselves. In relation to women, for example, sexual intercourse, rightly used, has as its purpose the begetting of children. He, therefore, who seeks in it only sensual pleasure uses it wrongly, for he reckons as good what is not good. When such a man has intercourse with a woman, he misuses her. And the same is true with regard to other things and our conceptual images of them. - St Maximos the Confessor, 2nd Century on Love
​

 

[Philip]

If you can not find a priest locally, try here. (Scroll to the bottom of the page.)

 

[joyfulthanks]

I think the following quote from St. Maximus should give you an answer:

Vice is the wrong use of our conceptual images of things, which leads us to misuse the things themselves. In relation to women, for example, sexual intercourse, rightly used, has as its purpose the begetting of children. He, therefore, who seeks in it only sensual pleasure uses it wrongly, for he reckons as good what is not good. When such a man has intercourse with a woman, he misuses her. And the same is true with regard to other things and our conceptual images of them. - St Maximos the Confessor, 2nd Century on Love






​

Huh, so according to this, my husband and I can't have sex, since we are infertile? And married couples are supposed to stop having sex altogether after a woman reaches menopause, since it would not be for the purpose of procreating? Interesting...

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

 

[icxn]

Huh, so according to this, my husband and I can't have sex, since we are infertile? And married couples are supposed to stop having sex altogether after a woman reaches menopause, since it would not be for the purpose of procreating? Interesting...

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

Orthodox praxis is not easy. But in your case it is not a sin, since your intention is procreation, plus it shows your faith and hope in God [who is able to perform the miracle and give you a child].

 

[Annoula]

i think we Orthodox believe that our main purpose is to reach Theosis.

a married couple is asked to try for Theosis togetr.. unifying bodies and souls in a eucharistic way - i think - is not sinful or bad but a means to commune with the other soul and the breath of God that this person has inside him/her.

 

[joyfulthanks]

Orthodox praxis is not easy. But in your case it is not a sin, since your intention is procreation, plus it shows your faith and hope in God [who is able to perform the miracle and give you a child].

So what about those past menopause?

If this is truly representative of Orthodox praxis, I think it's something they ought to tell people before they sign on the dotted line:

"You have to fast 200 days out of the year, and oh yeah - no sex unless your sole intention is procreation."

So assuming the intent is procreation, do you consider it a sin to actually enjoy sex with your spouse?

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

 

[Michael G]

So what about those past menopause?

If this is truly representative of Orthodox praxis, I think it's something they ought to tell people before they sign on the dotted line:

"You have to fast 200 days out of the year, and oh yeah - no sex unless your sole intention is procreation."

So assuming the intent is procreation, do you consider it a sin to actually enjoy sex with your spouse?

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

Pro-creation is not the ONLY reason to have marital relations. All marital relations should be open to pro-creation, but in my humble experience, when you turn martial relations into simply pro-creating to you take much of the love and unitive action from the act and rob it of much of it's beauty. You also run the risk of not uniting at all during the act of pro-creating and allowing a chasm to form in the relationship. The unitive part of sex is very, very important to it! It binds the husband and wife in an intimate bond of love. I would suggest it is more of a sin to have relations for the simple reason of pro-creating and having no love involved in the relations. In my experience, sexual intercourse without the love invovled can be very, very damaging to a marriage. Those who tell you that marital relations MUST always be in an attempt to pro-create forget that the unitive and loving element of sex is equally as important as the act being open to life.

 

[joyfulthanks]

Pro-creation is not the ONLY reason to have marital relations. All marital relations should be open to pro-creation, but in my humble experience, when you turn martial relations into simply pro-creating to you take much of the love and unitive action from the act and rob it of much of it's beauty. You also run the risk of not uniting at all during the act of pro-creating and allowing a chasm to form in the relationship. The unitive part of sex is very, very important to it! It binds the husband and wife in an intimate bond of love. I would suggest it is more of a sin to have relations for the simple reason of pro-creating and having no love involved in the relations. In my experience, sexual intercourse without the love invovled can be very, very damaging to a marriage. Those who tell you that marital relations MUST always be in an attempt to pro-create forget that the unitive and loving element of sex is equally as important as the act being open to life.

Thank you, Michael - I agree completely. However, is your view representative of the beliefs of the church in this, or does the quote of St. Maximus that icxn posted above represent the view of the Orthodox church?

And everyone, please, don't say "Ask you priest." This is a question that simply can't be open to private interpretation by numerous spritual fathers who may all come to different conclusions. Either sex within marriage is right because God made it so for the union and blessing of husband and wife and for the procreation of children, or it is only right as a means to procreation. Which is it?

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

 

[Michael G]

Thank you, Michael - I agree. However, is your opinion representative of the beliefs of the church in this, or does the quote of St. Maximus that icxn posted above represent the view of the Orthodox church?

And everyone, please, don't say "Ask you priest." This is a question that simply can't be open to private interpretation by numerous spritual fathers who may all come to different conclusions. Either sex within marriage is right because God made it so for the union and blessing of husband and wife and for the procreation of children, or it is only right as a means to procreation. It can't be both ways.

Your sister in Christ,
Grace

The thing about Orthodoxy is this: you can't quote one father of the Church and think that is the majority opinion. My priest has made it quite clear there are majority and minority opinions among the fathers. Thus you have to read a BUNCH of the fathers to get the majority opinion. This is not Rome, there is not cut dry answer. I think the OT will back me in saying that sex within marriage has the dual purpose of uniting the husband and wife and creating life. I know from my own experience, my x-wife was so bent on getting pregnant even though she had 3 grown children (from a previous marriage) and was in her 40s that it totally destroyed the love involved in marital relations. I fail to see how treating sex merely as an act of creating life is in line with the view of a loving God who wants a husband and wife to love each other.