Question - WHY PAUL?

[kmolson]

Can you show me where? Because this is what I was not seeing in Ken's presentation.



I guess this is just a different interpretation that you and I have.



But vs 45 doesn't say that.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.




A little confusion here. You had suggested in an earlier post that I come up with a different definition of "mystery" Sorry about that.



I find some of the methodology a little troubling. But your right and I will read some more.

Billy <><

Hi Billy:

While reading through your posts, I get the feeling that you are looking more to discuss the Charismatic Baptisms of the Holy Spirit with the gifts of tongues, healings and such, rather than the Revelation of the Mystery, is that so?

Ken.

 

[Dispy]

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was made known prior to Paul

Can you show me where? Because this is what I was not seeing in Ken's presentation..

When one receives/filled with the Holy Spirit, that one is indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit was promised by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11.

The disciples of Jesus received the Holy Spirit in John 20:22, but were not given the power of it until Pentecost.

Matthew 3:11 was fulfilled in Acts 2:38.

We see that all in Acts 4:31 were all filled with the Holy Ghost.

There are other poof texts, but you can search them out yourself.

The operation of the Holy Spirit is different today then what it was at Pentecost. Once Paul received the full knowledge of the mystery, man no longer has the Pentecostal power of the Holy Spirit. At Pentecost Jesus was the baptizer with the Holy Spirit, but today it is the Holy Spirit that is the baptizer (1 Cor. 12:13).

But Paul isn't speaking of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a mystery that was kept secret since the world began, and NOW revealed to him. He is speaking of man's two natures as a result of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I guess this is just a different interpretation that you and I have..

Well, I still have the old sin nature withing me, but also the new nature of a believer. I, and I am sure you do also, have the same problems problems that Paul speaks of.

The best way one can overcome the old nature is by feeding the new nature much more then the old nature. The more one feeds the new nature by studying the Word, the more strength one gains to win the battle.

Peter was shocked that those Gentiles received the Holy Spirit without the evidence of repentance, or water baptism.

But vs 45 doesn't say that..

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost..

Well, when one is astonished, one is usually shocked as to what is happening. Why do you think that Peter was asstonished?

I fail to see where you took any view to defend. How would one defend a "could be" anyway.

A little confusion here. You had suggested in an earlier post that I come up with a different definition of "mystery" Sorry about that..

I said what I did because you use the words "could be" and "probably." Those to me are words of uncertainty, and hard to defend.

I did send you a book that explained Paul's apostleship and message. Either you didn't read it, or don't agree with it, and are unable to refute it.

I find some of the methodology a little troubling. But your right and I will read some more.

What is so troubling about it? Ask yourself "Why did God raise up Saul/Paul to go to the Gentiles, kings and children of Israel, when He had already had commissioned 12 to do so?" Ask youself "What is "...preaching Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began?" Ask and find the answer as to WHY Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh; yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh (His earthly ministry), yet now henceforth (from now on) know we him no more."

IMHO, one has to be quite scripturally blind in not seeing the changes between the preaching "the gospel of the kingdom," (that Jesus and the 12 preached),and "the gospel of the Grace of God" that was revealed to Paul.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Dispy -you are absolutely blind!

Jesus is still calling people to go in His name to different people groups around the globe and will continue to do so until the end of this age, when the kingdom of God is come, and the Father's will is done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Paul's call to go is no different than any man's call, who is called "to go" in their lifetime on this earth.

There is no mystery about that calling; and Paul is dead and the twelve foundational Apostles of the LORD's doctrine are dead; but "the Church " headquartered in Zion above, is alive on earth with the same Spirit, and is still comissioning men "to go" by laying on of hands -as the Antioch Church did, to Saul and Barnabus, for them to fulfill the call of the Spirit.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hi Billy:

While reading through your posts, I get the feeling that you are looking more to discuss the Charismatic Baptisms of the Holy Spirit with the gifts of tongues, healings and such, rather than the Revelation of the Mystery, is that so?

Ken.

Jesus is "the Mystery" the Hidden God, "from the beginning" who is now come in flesh, revealed to the "elect" -to those who are born into His one New Man Spirit- and who is to come to be revealed to the world, as Jesus showed John, when Jesus dictated the last letter to the Ephesians -and the other six Churches of Asia.

And Paul the Apostle was a
born again
water baptized
Pentecostal
tongues speaking/praying/singing
circumcizing
male
Jew
who never departed from Moses and who kept the law
even sacrificing in the temple according to the law after he was born again in Spirit;

who commanded "do not forbid to speak in tongues"

and to "covet earnestly to prophesy"

and also commanded those who were called [born again into the New Man name] in the circumcision to not become uncircumcised,
and who commanded those who were called into the name of the LORD uncircumcised to not become circumcised;
and who sent a born again in Spirit -joined to the New Man by that joining of adoption- slave, back to his master -as the right thing to do,
though he pleaded for his freedom from his master, who owed Paul his life.

MAD doctrine is confused and has no ability to "compare Scripture with Scripture" to understand Truth, as the MAD doctrine playbook is it's source of 'division" -away from the Truth of the Word, itself, and those following the MAD playbook go about in a fog of confusion, deceiving and being deceived -willfully.

 

[billychum]

IMHO, one has to be quite scripturally blind in not seeing the changes between the preaching "the gospel of the kingdom," (that Jesus and the 12 preached),and "the gospel of the Grace of God" that was revealed to Paul.

differences in gospel - Yes
different gospel - No

Ken
I'm not at all concerned about the gifts and I'm sorry if I was being confusing. I'm trying to make the point that the mystery could be something other than what some dispensationalist are suggesting.

Billy <><

 

[Dispy]

IMHO, one has to be quite scripturally blind in not seeing the changes between the preaching "the gospel of the kingdom," (that Jesus and the 12 preached),and "the gospel of the Grace of God" that was revealed to Paul.

differences in gospel - Yes
different gospel - No

If there is not difference the gospel that Paul preached from what Jesus and the 12 preached, Why is it that Jesus and the 12 preached the gospel that pertained to an earthly kingdom, and Paul never speaks of members of the Body of Christ having an earthly hope, but he preaches that we have a heavenly hope/home? When did Jesus and the 12 the purpose of the Cross as good news (gospel)?

Ken
I'm not at all concerned about the gifts and I'm sorry if I was being confusing. I'm trying to make the point that the mystery could be something other than what some dispensationalist are suggesting.

Billy <><

IMHO, one's doctrine is very weak if one has to rely on "could be." How do you defend that with any kind of authority?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[billychum]

If there is not difference the gospel that Paul preached from what Jesus and the 12 preached, Why is it that Jesus and the 12 preached the gospel that pertained to an earthly kingdom, and Paul never speaks of members of the Body of Christ having an earthly hope, but he preaches that we have a heavenly hope/home? When did Jesus and the 12 the purpose of the Cross as good news (gospel)?

As we have discussed before, there could be many reasons for this besides the one that you are suggesting. Such as Jesus being mostly, but not exclusively concerned for Israel or Paul being a theologian compelled by his Damascus experience could have given him a different perspective or increased and better defined revelation for Paul, or maybe it was just a change of position that Paul took just like many of us may change our position over the years.

I know this is a poor analogy. But if I were to paint my five year old car, get a new group of friends to ride around in it, go to new places in it, listen to a different radio station, make claims about my car that I have never made before. It would still be my five year old car with only new developments.

IMHO, one's doctrine is very weak if one has to rely on "could be." How do you defend that with any kind of authority?

I'm not trying to defend anything specific I'm just wondering why I should believe that your interpretation is the only one. But if you come can up with better evidence for you position, I'm listening.

Billy <><

 

[Dispy]

As we have discussed before, there could be many reasons for this besides the one that you are suggesting. Such as Jesus being mostly, but not exclusively concerned for Israel or Paul being a theologian compelled by his Damascus experience could have given him a different perspective or increased and better defined revelation for Paul, or maybe it was just a change of position that Paul took just like many of us may change our position over the years.

I know this is a poor analogy. But if I were to paint my five year old car, get a new group of friends to ride around in it, go to new places in it, listen to a different radio station, make claims about my car that I have never made before. It would still be my five year old car with only new developments.



I'm not trying to defend anything specific I'm just wondering why I should believe that your interpretation is the only one. But if you come can up with better evidence for you position, I'm listening.

Billy <><

Well Billy, I think I will just let you go on with your "could be" and "probably" beliefs. I don't think there is much more that I could say that would change your mind.

I was hoping that you could give me your answers as to what I asked previously, such as: Ask yourself "Why did God raise up Saul/Paul to go to the Gentiles, kings and children of Israel, when He had already had commissioned 12 to do so?" Ask youself "What is "...preaching Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began?" Ask and find the answer as to WHY Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh; yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh (His earthly ministry), yet now henceforth (from now on) know we him no more."?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[kmolson]

differences in gospel - Yes
different gospel - No

Ken
I'm not at all concerned about the gifts and I'm sorry if I was being confusing. I'm trying to make the point that the mystery could be something other than what some dispensationalist are suggesting.

Billy <><

Hi Billy:

Here is a copy of a critique, by Jerry Shugart, of something that Gary DeMar had written.
Although I do not agree with Jerry as per his "12 in" stand, (see the "12 in 12 out" thread), he does give a very clear presentation of the Two Gospels.

"Gospel Preached in Whole World"?

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Mt.24:14).
Gary DeMar writes,"Since the Bible clearly states that that gospel 'was proclaimed in all creation under heaven'(Col.1:23),then the end spoken of by Jesus is a past event for us.Earlier in his letter to the Colossians,Paul describes how the gospel was 'constantly bearing fruit and increasing in all the world [kosmos]' (1:6)" (DeMar,"Last Days Madness", p.87).
Gary DeMar confuses the "gospel of the kingdom" with the "gospel of grace". It was the "gospel of grace" that went to all the world and not the "gospel of the kingdom":
"The word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth" (Col.1:5,6).
Evidently Gary DeMar is not aware of the fact that throughout the Acts period two different gospels were being preached&#8212;one to the Jews (gospel of the circumcision) and one to the Gentiles (gospel of the uncircumcision). The central message of "gospel of the kingdom" was the same as the "gospel of the circumcision":
"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter" (Gal.1:7).
The burden of the "gospel of the kingdom" was the announcement of the approach of the rule of heaven upon the earth and the Kingship of its Lord--the rule of God which would be manifested in and through the Christ. John the Baptist proclaimed:
"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Mt.3:2).
He also said that he came baptizing with water so "that He might be revealed to Israel"(Jn.1:31).After seeing the spirit descending on the Lord Jesus the Baptist said,"and I saw, and bore witness that this is the Son of God" (Jn.1:34).
The announcement that the kingdom was near at hand would naturally lead the Jew to expect that the Christ would be revealed and this was the meaning of the Baptist's words:
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and He will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Mt.3:11-12).
The Lord Jesus Himself made it plain that salvation among the Jews depended on their recognizing His "identity":
"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins" (Jn.8:23-24).
After the leaders of the nation of Israel plotted His death the Lord Jesus told His disciples not to make Him known:
"Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known" (Mt.12:14-16).
The Lord Jesus knew that the Jews would receive another chance to believe in Him after His crucifixion. While upon the Cross the Lord Jesus prayed to the Father, saying"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Lk.23:34).
On the day of Pentecost Peter told these same Jews that they crucified Him "through ignorance". He also used the facts concerning His death and resurrection in order to prove that He is the promised Messiah and then he summed up his discourse by saying:
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts2:36).
The heart and soul of the "gospel of the kingdom" is the fact that it is the Lord Jesus Who is the "Christ, the Son of God".
Later, after hearing the gospel preached the Ethiopian treasurer asked to be baptized with water: "And Philip said, If thou believeth with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts8:37).
After Paul was converted, the first thing that he did was to preach this same gospel in the synagogues of the Jews: "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts9:20,22).
That was the same gospel which Paul continued to preach to the Jews: "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ" (Acts17:2,30).
That is the same message that Apollos preached to the Jews: "For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus is Christ" (Acts18:28).
The Apostle John makes it clear that those who believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, are "born of God":
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him&#8230;.For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1Jn.5:1,4,5).
"But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on His name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:12,13).
This explains why the Lord Jesus would tell Peter that he was "blessed" for believing that He is "the Christ, the Son of the Living God". The Lord asked Peter who he thought that He was, and Peter replied:
"Thou are the Christ, the Son of the Living God. And Jesus answered and said unto Him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it to you, but my Father Who is in heaven" (Mt.16:16,17).
So we can clearly see that the central message that was preached to the Jews is the fact that it is Jesus Who is the Christ, the Son of God.
Gospel of Grace

The "gospel of the kingdom" was a gospel that was based entirely upon prophecy. When Paul was arrested and charged with being "a mover of sedition among all the Jews" (Acts24:5) he defended himself by saying that the message he was preaching among the Jews was based on no other things but that which the prophets said would happen:
"I continue to this day, witnessing both to small and unto great,saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:That Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light unto the people, and unto the Gentiles" (Acts26:23).
However, the gospel that was preached to all the world was a message that was a "mystery" or something that had been kept secret and had not been revealed by the prophets:
"Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, even the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began&#8230;made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (Ro.16:25,26).
The "mystery" that was kept secret concerns the "purpose" of the death of the Messiah upon the Cross. This mystery was not made known while the Lord Jesus walked the earth as witnessed by the words of Paul:
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages unto our glory; Which none of the princes of this age knew;for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1Cor.2:7,8).
Paul says that "God's grace" is the "mystery": "Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, that is,the mystery made known to me by revelation" (Eph.3:2,3;NIV).
The gospel that went to the whole world was centered on the "purpose" of the redemption provided by the Lord Jesus when He was crucified and this gospel is the "gospel of grace":
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).
The message that Paul was preaching to the Gentiles and that went out to the whole world cannot be preached apart from the "purpose" of His death.
"God&#8230;hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation&#8230;and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation" (2Cor.5:18,19).
"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death" (Col.1:20-22).
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son" (Ro.5:10).
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you&#8230;how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1Cor.15:1-4).
The Acts record will be searched in vain for even one instance where the "purpose" of the Lord's death upon the Cross was preached to the Jews. Again, the central message which they received during the Acts period was centered on the fact that it is Jesus Who is the Christ,t he Son of God.
"That gospel which I preach among the Gentiles"

There can be no doubt that Paul was preaching two different gospels during the Acts period. He recounts how he went to the Jerusalem church in order to see if he had run in vain for preaching a gospel that was different from that gospel that was being preached to the Jews:
"And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain" (Gal.2:2).
If there was only one gospel then Paul would not have singled out a gospel which he preached to the Gentiles. After all, he had been with the other Apostles earlier while he preached a gospel to the Jews (Acts9:28,29) so if there was only one gospel then Paul would have had any doubts as to whether or not he had been running in vain. After explaining the gospel which he preached to the Gentiles to the other Apostles he said that they "added nothing to me" (v.6) and that "they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter" (v.7).
Speaking of Paul's two different ministries, Sir Robert Anderson says "to the Gentiles he preached a gospel which he had received by special revelation. And the specific purpose of his third visit to Jerusalem was to communicate that gospel to the other Apostles. (Galatians 2:2) In writing to Timothy he speaks of it as 'the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.' It was the precious deposit which, on the eve of his martyrdom, he handed back, as it were, to the God who had entrusted it to him. (2 Timothy 1:12) And this is the 'My gospel,' of the postscript to his Epistle to the Romans. (Romans 16:25, 26)" (Anderson,"Forgotten Truths", p.26).
At another place we see Paul once again singling out the Gentiles as receiving a different message than the one the Jews received:
"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col.1:26,27).
Here Paul is speaking of the "the riches" that flow from the gospel of grace,and during the Acts period it was only preached to the Gentiles. Also, during the Acts period only the churches which Paul founded received the preaching in regard to the "dispensation of the mystery", but after that period had ended all believers were told of the mystery (the unsearchable riches of Christ):
"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things" (Eph.3:8.9, ASV).
Therefore the Scriptures reveal that the gospel which was preached to the whole world during the time of Paul was the "gospel of grace" and not the "gospel of the kingdom", as Gary DeMar asserts.

to be continued

 

[kmolson]

The Circumstances Surrounding Paul's Receiving of the "Gospel of Grace"

When Paul received the gospel that he preached among the Gentiles the circumstances were entirely different from the circumstances when he received the gospel that he preached to the Jews.He says: "But when it pleased God&#8230;to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).
As soon as Paul received the "gospel of grace" he "immediately" went to Arabia and he did not confer with other men. But that is not what happened when he received the gospel which he preached to the Jews in the synagogues:
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And immediately he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God" (Acts9:17-20).
As soon as Paul was saved and received the gospel that he preached to the Jews he did not go immediately into Arabia. Instead, he remained in Damascus "certain days" while he preached Christ to the Jews in the synagogues. Although the Scriptures do not reveal exactly when Paul received the "gospel of grace" he could have received it after he went to Tarsus (Acts9:30). The evidence demonstrates that Paul received the "gospel of grace" some time after he received the gospel he preached to the Jews, and the Lord told Paul when he was converted that He would receive other revelations later (Acts26:16).

Objections

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Gal.1:8).
Here Paul was addressing the churches in Galatia which he had founded, churches established by the "gospel of grace". He knew that the "gospel of circumcision" was not going to be preached to them because he had agreed with those who had received the "apostleship of the circumcision" (Gal.2:8) that they would confine their preaching to the Jews:
"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision" (Gal.2:9).
Therefore Paul was not saying anything that ruled out the idea that more than one gospel was preached during the Acts period.
Romans 1:16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).
Those who deny that there were two different gospels quote Romans 1:16 and say that the "gospel of Christ" was preached to both the Jews and the Gentiles and therefore they received the same gospel. However, the Greek word translated "gospel" means "glad tidings" or "good news".
The Jews indeed received "glad tidings of Christ" as did the Gentiles. But that does not mean that the "glad tidings" was the same in both instances. The glad tidings of Christ preached to the Jews was the fact that it is Jesus Who is the Christ, the Son of God. The glad tidings preached to the Gentiles is the fact that when they were enemies of God, Jesus Christ died for their sins (Ro.5:8-10).
Indeed, glad tidings to both groups, but not the same glad tidings.

Ken.

 

[billychum]

Sorry Ken but I can't buy it. The scriptures that are quoted to support the "two gospel" position are open to more than one interpretation. I think that if Paul had experienced such a dramatic doctrinal change that the language he used would be less vauge and less open to various interpretations. I think speculation is used to support the "two gospel claim"

Billy <><

 

[kmolson]

Sorry Ken but I can't buy it. The scriptures that are quoted to support the "two gospel" position are open to more than one interpretation. I think that if Paul had experienced such a dramatic doctrinal change that the language he used would be less vauge and less open to various interpretations. I think speculation is used to support the "two gospel claim"

Billy <><

Hi Billy:

Which Gospel were you saved by?

Ken.

 

[billychum]

Hi Billy:
Which Gospel were you saved by?
Ken.

The one that Jesus and Paul preach.

Billy <><

 

[kmolson]

The one that Jesus and Paul preach.

Billy <><

Hi Billy:

Could you explain that Gospel Jesus and Paul preached?

Ken.

 

[billychum]

Hi Billy:

Could you explain that Gospel Jesus and Paul preached?

Ken.

Here are the basics


16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Billy <><

 

[kmolson]

Here are the basics


16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Billy <><

Hi Billy:

John 3:16, is indeed the basics of the &#8220;Gospel of the Kingdom&#8221;, and the &#8220;Cross&#8221; is the basics of the &#8220;Gospel of the Grace of God&#8221;.
Under which gospel (good news) were you saved: "The gospel (good news) of the kingdom" that John the Baptist, Jesus, and the 12 preached, with its earthly hope/home, or "The gospel (good news) of the Grace of God," with its heavenly hope/home, that Paul Preached? It has to be one or the other, and don't give me a "could be"/"probably"/"maybe." If you believe that John the Baptist, Jesus, the 12 disciples, and Paul all preached the same gospel (good news), What is your future hope/home - earthly kingdom or heaven?

Here is a copy of the &#8220;Gospel of the Grace of God&#8221; that Paul preached.

Am I going to heaven?

Check below what you think is necessary to get you to heaven.
q Obeying Gods law and commandments.
q Doing your best.
q Living a good life.
q Good Works.
q Trying to obey the Golden Rule.
q Tithing, or giving money to the church.
q Church membership or attendance.
q Prayers.
q Water Baptism.
q Holy Communion.
q Confirmation.
q Penance.
q Raised as a Christian.

Now see how you scored.​

Explanation

If you checked one or more of the above items, you failed the test. Don&#8217;t feel badly though. Most people fail. Most are to some degree religious, but religions are nothing more than manmade attempts to reach God.
Religion is not the answer

The real answer to how to get to heaven is not found in some religious system or by mans self-righteousness. God has declared that there is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10). For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).
Gods Word teaches that sin is a very serious matter. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 tells of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

What can you do about your sin problem?

Can you clean up your life, do good works and hope that in the end your good works will outweigh your bad works? NO! Salvation does not come to those who work for it, but to those who cease from their own works, placing their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 4:5 makes this point abundantly clear: To him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. In Ephesians 2:8-9 it is declared, For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
The issue is not what you can do for God, but what He has done for you.

But God commands His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). He has made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). You have no righteousness of your own. To have eternal life you must have the righteousness of Jesus Christ (see Romans 3:26).
What is your responsibility?

God has given you a free will to either accept or reject what He has done for you. To have Gods righteousness, you must believe that Christ died for your sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
If I believe this message what happens?

Your response to the gospel (good news) should be as we read in the book of Ephesians: In whom (the Lord Jesus Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13). This seal is a guarantee that your salvation is eternal you can never lose it once you have it (see Ephesians 1:14, 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22).
A decision to make

At this very moment you have a decision to make. If Gods Word convinces you, you can be saved right now; simply make the decision in your heart to trust completely and exclusively in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ as the total payment to God for your sins. The moment you do, God will forgive you all your sins and save you from spending eternity in the Lake of Fire.
The choice is now up to you!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hi Billy:


Under which gospel (good news) were you saved: "The gospel (good news) of the kingdom" that John the Baptist, Jesus, and the 12 preached, with its earthly hope/home, or "The gospel (good news) of the Grace of God," with its heavenly hope/home, that Paul Preached? It has to be one or the other,

The false teaching of MAD doctrine claims that no one goes to heaven but those who believe in their second gospel taught by their men who put words together and claim that their invented pseudo 'paul' taught and believed them.
"No one goes to heaven who was saved before "paul" taught a different gospel!" says MAD-ists.
This teaching is not Christian doctrine, this is just MAD-ist doctrine!

Jesus promised to come get His believers to take them to Himself, that where He is, they wil be also [John 14:1-], forever; and He is with the Father in the heavens -particularly seated on Mount Zion above, since His ascension [Psalm 2] where He led all the captives of the first death to, who were held in hell below, where they waited for the promised redemption, who had died in righteousness.

The Scriptures teach the regenerating and unitiing of heaven and earth, from which heavens earth has been quarantined since the fall of "Adam, son of God" -Luke 3:38.

And we aren't saved by "doctrine", but by the personal Savior, who is the "Gospel" =Good News =Glad Tidings, to all nations, Himself.




Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Hbr 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,Hbr 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God....Act 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Jhn 14:1¶Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house [heaven] are many dwelling places: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

MAD is false doctrine by denying the heavenly hope of all Believers.
Jhn 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.Jhn 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

[billychum]

Ken what is so hard to understand about whosoever believeth?

Billy <><

 

[billychum]

Hi Billy:

John 3:16, is indeed the basics of the “Gospel of the Kingdom”, and the “Cross” is the basics of the “Gospel of the Grace of God”.
Under which gospel (good news) were you saved: "The gospel (good news) of the kingdom" that John the Baptist, Jesus, and the 12 preached, with its earthly hope/home, or "The gospel (good news) of the Grace of God," with its heavenly hope/home, that Paul Preached? It has to be one or the other, and don't give me a "could be"/"probably"/"maybe." If you believe that John the Baptist, Jesus, the 12 disciples, and Paul all preached the same gospel (good news), What is your future hope/home - earthly kingdom or heaven?

Here is a copy of the “Gospel of the Grace of God” that Paul preached.

Am I going to heaven?

Check below what you think is necessary to get you to heaven.
qObeying Gods law and commandments.
qDoing your best.
qLiving a good life.
qGood Works.
qTrying to obey the Golden Rule.
qTithing, or giving money to the church.
qChurch membership or attendance.
qPrayers.
qWater Baptism.
qHoly Communion.
qConfirmation.
qPenance.
qRaised as a Christian.

Now see how you scored.​

Explanation

If you checked one or more of the above items, you failed the test. Don’t feel badly though. Most people fail. Most are to some degree religious, but religions are nothing more than manmade attempts to reach God.
Religion is not the answer

The real answer to how to get to heaven is not found in some religious system or by mans self-righteousness. God has declared that there is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10). For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).
Gods Word teaches that sin is a very serious matter. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 tells of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

What can you do about your sin problem?

Can you clean up your life, do good works and hope that in the end your good works will outweigh your bad works? NO! Salvation does not come to those who work for it, but to those who cease from their own works, placing their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 4:5 makes this point abundantly clear: To him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. In Ephesians 2:8-9 it is declared, For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
The issue is not what you can do for God, but what He has done for you.

But God commands His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). He has made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). You have no righteousness of your own. To have eternal life you must have the righteousness of Jesus Christ (see Romans 3:26).
What is your responsibility?

God has given you a free will to either accept or reject what He has done for you. To have Gods righteousness, you must believe that Christ died for your sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
If I believe this message what happens?

Your response to the gospel (good news) should be as we read in the book of Ephesians: In whom (the Lord Jesus Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13). This seal is a guarantee that your salvation is eternal you can never lose it once you have it (see Ephesians 1:14, 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22).
A decision to make

At this very moment you have a decision to make. If Gods Word convinces you, you can be saved right now; simply make the decision in your heart to trust completely and exclusively in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ as the total payment to God for your sins. The moment you do, God will forgive you all your sins and save you from spending eternity in the Lake of Fire.
The choice is now up to you!

This is the biggest bunch of nonsense.

Billy <><

 

[sunlover1]

"No one goes to heaven who was saved before "paul" taught a different gospel!" says MAD-ists.
This teaching is not Christian doctrine, this is just MAD-ist doctrine!

Jesus promised to come get His believers to take them to Himself, that where He is, they wil be also [John 14:1-], forever; and He is with the Father in the heavens -particularly seated on Mount Zion above, since His ascension [Psalm 2] where He led all the captives of the first death to, who were held in hell below, where they waited for the promised redemption, who had died in righteousness.

The Scriptures teach the regenerating and unitiing of heaven and earth, from which heavens earth has been quarantined since the fall of "Adam, son of God" -Luke 3:38.

And we aren't saved by "doctrine", but by the personal Savior, who is the "Gospel" =Good News =Glad Tidings, to all nations, Himself.




Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Hbr 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,Hbr 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God....Act 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Jhn 14:1¶Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.Jhn 14:2
In my Father's house [heaven] are many dwelling places: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.Jhn 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

MAD is false doctrine by denying the heavenly hope of all Believers.
Jhn 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.Jhn 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Hi Yeshuasavedme

Curious,
Why do you think Jesus
spoke to this woman as such?
Matthew 15:23-26
23 But he answered her not a word.
And his disciples came and besought him, saying,
Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said,
I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said,
It is not meet to take the children's bread,
and to cast it to dogs.

sunlover