Question - WHY PAUL?

[Dispy]

Speaking of mixing things up; and it could be that I am completly misunderstanding Ken. But isn't the one who Jesus sent in Jn. 13:20 the Holy Spirit and not Paul?

Billy <><

John 13:20 "Verily, verily, I say unto you He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."

Yes, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, but no one in particular is mentioned. He also sent His 12 disciples with the so called "great commission." Further, in Act 9Jesus called Saul/Paul. Therefore, I do believe that John 13:20 can be applied to Paul, but Jesus was not actually speaking of Paul in that vertse.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[A Brother In Christ]

John 13:20 "Verily, verily, I say unto you He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."

Yes, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, but no one in particular is mentioned. He also sent His 12 disciples with the so called "great commission." Further, in Act 9Jesus called Saul/Paul. Therefore, I do believe that John 13:20 can be applied to Paul, but Jesus was not actually speaking of Paul in that vertse.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

In John it talks about the Father and the Son being one so


Jn 13:20 Most assuredly, I[Jesus] say to you[discples], he who recieves Me; and he who recieves Me[Jesus] recieves Him[Father] who sent me.

In context!

John 14:16-17 states another helper[Holy Spirit] that will indwell you in the future shortly after Christ leaving!

 

[kmolson]

John 13:20 "Verily, verily, I say unto you He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."

Yes, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, but no one in particular is mentioned. He also sent His 12 disciples with the so called "great commission." Further, in Act 9Jesus called Saul/Paul. Therefore, I do believe that John 13:20 can be applied to Paul, but Jesus was not actually speaking of Paul in that vertse.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

My apologies, I should have used the verse in Acts 22:21 where it says;
And He (Jesus) said unto me (Paul), Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

I guess it is a hangover from my pre dispensational days.

Ken.

 

[Apollos1]

Apollos1 said:
I see that Paul is still the "idol" that you seek to serve...

Paul said:
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ,
[and] lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
[2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Jesus said;
Jhn 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Enuff said:
Ken.

While Dispy is patting you on the head, I thought I would ask if you have some point to make ???

Paul and I have no disagreement.

Are you saying that Paul is your “idol” also ?

 

[Apollos1]

Dispy said - John 13:20 "Verily, verily, I say unto you He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."

Yes, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, but no one in particular is mentioned. He also sent His 12 disciples with the so called "great commission." Further, in Act 9Jesus called Saul/Paul. Therefore, I do believe that John 13:20 can be applied to Paul, but Jesus was not actually speaking of Paul in that vertse.

The CONTEXT (a truly rare commodity for many here in the dispy forum) of the passage is that Jesus is speaking to the Twelve.
Try context once in a while – you may like it.

But humor me – tell us in what way this verse can be “applied” to Paul. I know you give Paul credit for all but dying on the cross, so why not go ahead and just place Paul here with the Twelve?

The “Great Commission” (which seems to irk you so much) was given in Matthew 28:18-20. Paul never gave and never could never give a commission as such, being himself lesser than the Christ, and being himself subject to Christ’s authority.

 

[kmolson]

Apollos1 said:
I see that Paul is still the "idol" that you seek to serve...

Paul said:
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ,
[and] lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
[2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Jesus said;
Jhn 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Enuff said:
Ken.

While Dispy is patting you on the head, I thought I would ask if you have some point to make ???

Paul and I have no disagreement.

Are you saying that Paul is your “idol” also ?

Aww! Maybe if you would be nice, you might even get a Pat on the Head too.

 

[Dispy]

John 13:20 "Verily, verily, I say unto you He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."

Yes, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, but no one in particular is mentioned. He also sent His 12 disciples with the so called "great commission." Further, in Act 9Jesus called Saul/Paul. Therefore, I do believe that John 13:20 can be applied to Paul, but Jesus was not actually speaking of Paul in that verse.

My apologies, I should have used the verse in Acts 22:21 where it says;
And He (Jesus) said unto me (Paul), Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

I guess it is a hangover from my pre dispensational days.

Ken.

No need to apologise Ken. That is a "horizonal truth" that is as true today as the day Jesus said it. Just as John 5:24. And we both know that Jesus said in Matthew 15:24 "...I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

 

[Dispy]

In John it talks about the Father and the Son being one so


Jn 13:20 Most assuredly, I[Jesus] say to you[discples], he who recieves Me; and he who recieves Me[Jesus] recieves Him[Father] who sent me.

In context!

John 14:16-17 states another helper[Holy Spirit] that will indwell you in the future shortly after Christ leaving!

Are you saying that John 12:20 is not applicable to Paul or us today?

 

[Apollos1]

Aww! Maybe if you would be nice, you might even get a Pat on the Head too.

Ken -

You are showing a sense of humor. Is that allowed in this thread? So thank you for that, but I still don't know what point you may have been trying to make.

And lest I be misunderstood, I will say here that I believe John 13:20 can very well be applied to Paul. I asked Dispy HOW that verse can be applied to Paul to see what he may say, but he snubbed me <sniff-sniff>.

Oh well....

 

[Dispy]

Dispy said - John 13:20 "Verily, verily, I say unto you He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."

Yes, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, but no one in particular is mentioned. He also sent His 12 disciples with the so called "great commission." Further, in Act 9Jesus called Saul/Paul. Therefore, I do believe that John 13:20 can be applied to Paul, but Jesus was not actually speaking of Paul in that vertse.

The CONTEXT (a truly rare commodity for many here in the dispy forum) of the passage is that Jesus is speaking to the Twelve.
Try context once in a while – you may like it.

But humor me – tell us in what way this verse can be “applied” to Paul. I know you give Paul credit for all but dying on the cross, so why not go ahead and just place Paul here with the Twelve?

The “Great Commission” (which seems to irk you so much) was given in Matthew 28:18-20. Paul never gave and never could never give a commission as such, being himself lesser than the Christ, and being himself subject to Christ’s authority.

Aww! Maybe if you would be nice, you might even get a Pat on the Head too.

Ken -

You are showing a sense of humor. Is that allowed in this thread? So thank you for that, but I still don't know what point you may have been trying to make.

And lest I be misunderstood, I will say here that I believe John 13:20 can very well be applied to Paul. I asked Dispy HOW that verse can be applied to Paul to see what he may say, but he snubbed me <sniff-sniff>.

Oh well....

Apollos1 - You poor neglected baby. If you would have read my response to ken, which I assumed you did, Then you should have assumed that would be my reply to you also.

I AM SO SORRY YOU FELT SO NEGLECTED.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

In John it talks about the Father and the Son being one so


Jn 13:20 Most assuredly, I[Jesus] say to you[discples], he who recieves Me; and he who recieves Me[Jesus] recieves Him[Father] who sent me.

In context!

John 14:16-17 states another helper[Holy Spirit] that will indwell you in the future shortly after Christ leaving!

Are you saying that John 12:20 is not applicable to Paul or us today?

This is the upper room talk .... night before the cross...

this is basic church talk before the church began!

Paul and us get to be indwelled then and today till the rapture

 

[kmolson]

Aww! Maybe if you would be nice, you might even get a Pat on the Head too.

Ken -

You are showing a sense of humor. Is that allowed in this thread? So thank you for that, but I still don't know what point you may have been trying to make.

And lest I be misunderstood, I will say here that I believe John 13:20 can very well be applied to Paul. I asked Dispy HOW that verse can be applied to Paul to see what he may say, but he snubbed me <sniff-sniff>.

Oh well....

Hi Apollos:

This article was sent to me by a friend I met on the Internet, I am sending it to you in part and would like to get your opinion on it. The point I was trying to make is more than covered in this study.

This material has been extracted from “What is the Dispensation of the Mystery‘ an abstract written by Phillip Dennis. His contributions and labors to the understanding of Biblical doctrine are gratefully acknowledged.


IV. What is the dispensation of the Mystery?
A. Texts: Rom. 16:25,26; Eph. 3:3-9 (cf. Eph. 2:11-16; Col. 2:11-18); Col. 1:23-28; Gal. 1:8-12;2:1-2;Eph. 4:4-6.
B. We have seen what a dispensation means. Let us now look at the word we deferred, "mystery."
1. The Greek word does not mean something, "mysterious," "baffling" or "hard to understand."
2. It has two meanings, the second which is derivative from the first.
a. The main meaning, is something that is unknowable unless it is revealed. So the idea of a "secret" is the root idea. A secret is understandable but unknowable unless someone reveals or tells you the secret. A mystery in its Biblical use is something not revealed, but when it is revealed the mystery is KNOWABLE. Examples:
(1) Secrets of Israel’s kingdom: Matt. 13:11; Mk. 4:11; Lk. 8:10.
(2) Dispensation of the Secret (Body of Christ) revealed to Paul: Rom. 11:25; 16:25; 1 Cor. 15:51; Eph. 3:3,4,9; Col. 1:26,27.
(3) These references show that absolutely no notion of ambiguity is intended by the word MYSTERION.
b. Second meaning of mysterion is a "symbol." The symbol is understandable but needs to be revealed for the symbolic import to be known. Examples: Rev.1:20; 17:5,7.
3. Scriptural usage bears this out. In each of these cases the mystery is something unknowable until revealed.
a. Rom. 16:25: This passage is one of the clearest.
(1) Greek text: "Now to Him who is of power to establish you according to my gospel, even the proclaiming of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the held-in-silence secret (mystery)."
(2) Paul calls it his "good news" (gospel).
(3) The passage uses two words to underscore the fact that Paul’s gospel was completely unknown, not revealed in any way in the Hebrew Scriptures. "the held-in-silence secret."
b. Eph. 3:3,4,9: "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) ... 9 And to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
c. Col. 1:25,26:"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:"
C. Characteristics of the dispensation of the Mystery
1. It was a secret held in silence: Rom. 11:25; 16:25,26; 1 Cor. 15:51; Eph. 3:3,4,9; Col. 1:26,27.
2. The "mystery" is not Gentile salvation. Gentile salvation is known throughout Scripture. Saved Gentiles of prior dispensation confess their subservience to Israel. Gentiles are saved but not administratively equal to Jews. Examples:
a. Ninevites in book of Jonah.
b. Matt. 15:26-28. Christ maintains the distinction between Jews and Gentiles (In v:26, Christ answers the woman’s pleas with: "...It is not meet (proper) to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. The children are the circumcision, the dogs are the uncicrcumcision.) The Canaanite woman confesses that she is a "dog" in relation to Israel, and then she receives the blessing.
3. The Mystery is the joint administrative equality of Jews and Gentiles.
a. Eph. 3:6,7: "That the Gentiles should be joint-heirs and joint-body and joint-partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel of which I was made a minister..." (Greek text)
b. Eph. 2:11-16:
(1) middle wall of partition is the division between Jews and Gentiles, between the circumcision and the uncircumcision;
(2) middle wall of partition was the ordinances that made a distinction between the circumcision and the uncircumcision; properly called "enmity" or "alienation."
(3) middle wall of partition has been removed, thus making peace.
(4) The Jews were nigh to God (the favored nation); the Gentiles were afar.
(5) As a result of the removal of the middle wall of partition , the twain have been made one.
c. In the prophetic program Gentiles are blessed by Jews. Gentiles receive truth through Jews. Gentiles are blessed through Israel’s rise.
d. In the Body, all are equal. Body of Christ now blessed through Israel’s fall. The record of Israel’s fall and the transition to the Body of Christ is related in the book of Acts.
4. Dispensation of the Mystery given to Paul completes the word of God: Col. 1:26,27.
5. It was revealed exclusively to Paul: Gal. 1; Eph. 3:1-5,9; Col. 1:26,27.
6. Hope of the Body is eternally in heaven not on earth. Eph. 2:6; Phil. 3:20; Col. 1:5.
7. We enter our hope at the "rapture" before Daniel’s seventieth week. 1 Thess 4:13-5:11; 2 Thess. 2:1-12.
8. Administrative principles
a. The Body of Christ rules over the angels: 1 Cor. 6:3; Eph. 2:6.
b. The Body of Christ is non-ceremonial: Christ's work on the cross for the Body abolished the Jew-Gentile distinction and the related ordinances and ceremonies. We are complete in Christ apart from all ceremonial observances. Eph 2:14-16; 4:5; Col 2:10,14,18; Gal 4:8,9.
V. When did the dispensation of the Mystery begin?
A. Recall immutability of hopes. Mystery did not begin at Acts 2. The Church, the Body of Christ, did not begin at Acts 2. If so we have Peter with an earthly hope being made a member of the Body, which has a heavenly hope.
B. Acts 2 is fulfillment of a prophecy to Israel and for Israel.
1. As long as there is an Israel, there is a distinction between Jews and Gentiles, therefore NOT One Body. Therefore Acts 2 is NOT the birthday of the church, the Body of Christ.
2. Events of Acts 2 are the subject of prophecy:
a. Acts 3:21: "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."
b. Acts 3:24: "Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days."
3. The Mystery was held in absolute silence since the world began. Rom. 16:25: "Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was held-in-silence since the world began..." [Greek Text].
4. Point: Events of Acts are not related to the dispensation of the Mystery. That which was spoken cannot be that which was held in silence.
C. Dispensation of the mystery begins with the saving of Paul, Acts 9.
1. Paul’s epistles contain the new law for the Body of Christ, the Law of Christ.
2. Everything prior to Paul’s calling is still the Jewish and Gentile dispensations, still the Kingdom program, still a distinction between Jews and Gentiles.
a. Every event in the gospels and Acts up to Acts 9 is the Kingdom program, not dispensation of the Mystery. Acts 1:4-9: Israel’s kingdom still in view.
b. Rom. 15:8: Christ was a minister to the circumcision for the truth of God to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. Every event in the gospels is the Kingdom program, not dispensation of the Mystery. This includes Matt 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-20. The "Great Commission" and all of its commands are to the twelve. It is the Kingdom commission.
c. "Great Commission" (Matt. 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-20) is not the Body’s commission. The "Great Commission" does not contain Christ’s last words. Christ spoke again from heaven to Paul and revealed the dispensation of the Mystery to Paul. Our commission is to follow Paul, by obeying Christ’s words to Paul in Paul’s epistles. Our dispensation (household) has interrupted the prior dispensations (households) and their temporal development.
D. Explains chronology of Daniel’s 70 sabbatic years.
1. True that our dispensation occupies the chronological gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel.
2. But, the existence of gap in the weeks can be understood entirely in Jewish terms, especially when we note the weeks are recognized sabbatic years, i.e. the weeks are ceremonial observances of Israel. If there is no Israel as a distinctive people, then the "clock" can’t tick.
3. So, the gap in the prophetic record for Israel provides no clues to dispensation of the mystery. The dispensation of the mystery was held in total silence Rom. 16:25 until revealed to Paul.

Ken.

 

[billychum]

Ken I hope it's OK to jump in here. One thing that I don't see in the article that you have shared is the possibility that the mystery could be the indwelling of the Holy Spirit both for Jew and gentile. But I just briefly looked over it so it's possible that I missed it.

Billy <><

 

[Dispy]

Ken I hope it's OK to jump in here. One thing that I don't see in the article that you have shared is the possibility that the mystery could be the indwelling of the Holy Spirit both for Jew and gentile. But I just briefly looked over it so it's possible that I missed it.

Billy <><

Billy:
Do you have any scriptural support for your "could be?"

It appears to me that you are overlooking what is supported by scripture for something you want to believe.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[billychum]

Billy:
Do you have any scriptural support for your "could be?"

It appears to me that you are overlooking what is supported by scripture for something you want to believe.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

I sure hope that's not the case.
How about Romans 8:1-17

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin&#65279;&#65279;, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally&#65279; minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal&#65279;&#65279; mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by&#65279;&#65279; his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

Billy <><​

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=33086410#_ftn5

 

[Dispy]

I sure hope that's not the case.
How about Romans 8:1-17

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin&#65279;&#65279;, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally&#65279; minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal&#65279;&#65279; mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by&#65279;&#65279; his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

Billy <><​

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=33086410#_ftn5

In verse 1 we have the word "therefore." Whenever one sees that that word one should wonder what that word is there for. What it actually means it is there because what was said previously. So in context. we must go back to chapter 7 to understand what Paul is saying.

Also, in verse 1 we find the phrase "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Those words, in italics, were interpolated into the text, and are not in the original, but added by the translators. Those words are also repeated in verse 4, and rightfully so.

Yes, the Holy Spirit indwell all believer, but it is not the mystery that was revealed to Paul. The Holy Spirit indwelled believers prior to Paul.

Now you are going to have to come up with a different explaination of the mystery.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!.

 

[billychum]

In verse 1 we have the word "therefore." Whenever one sees that that word one should wonder what that word is there for. What it actually means it is there because what was said previously. So in context. we must go back to chapter 7 to understand what Paul is saying.

Rom. 7 demonstrates the effects that the law has on life that in turn leads into Rom 8 which demonstrates the effects that the Spirit has on life. Something new and mysterious.

Also, in verse 1 we find the phrase "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Those words, in italics, were interpolated into the text, and are not in the original, but added by the translators. Those words are also repeated in verse 4, and rightfully so.

I agree but it doesn't change the general point that I was making. Indwelling Spirit

Yes, the Holy Spirit indwell all believer, but it is not the mystery that was revealed to Paul. The Holy Spirit indwelled believers prior to Paul.

Then why was Peter so surprised by the events in the house hold of Cornelius?

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghosthttp://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=33113929#_ftn1
http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=33113929#_ftnref1

Now you are going to have to come up with a different explaination of the mystery.

I don't think I'm the one on defense here.

And by the way. Good morning.

Billy <><

 

[yeshuasavedme]

MAD doctrine promoters:
I wrote this for another board, and am waiting for a MAD doctrine promoter to answer Scripture.


Why Ananais?
Why did Jesus choose Ananais as His Apostle to Saul?

What kept secret, hidden from their eyes, new, never before revealed to MAD-ists "mysteries" can we learn from the fact of Ananais' being chosen as "The Apostle to Saul"?


Ananias Baptizes Saul
10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, "Ananias."
And he said, "Here I am, Lord."
11 So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight."
13 Then Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.
14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name."
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."


17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord *Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has apostello me[ that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

 

[Dispy]

In verse 1 we have the word "therefore." Whenever one sees that that word one should wonder what that word is there for. What it actually means it is there because what was said previously. So in context. we must go back to chapter 7 to understand what Paul is saying.

Rom. 7 demonstrates the effects that the law has on life that in turn leads into Rom 8 which demonstrates the effects that the Spirit has on life. Something new and mysterious.

IMHO I believe that Paul, speaking to those who know the Law is saying to those in chapter 7, that one is not made holy/righteous by the Law, and the nature of man.

In chapter 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit..." is speaking of the believer's new nature.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was made known prior to Paul, so Paul is not speaking of "a mystery." He is expaining what the Holy Spirit does with one's new nature.

Also, in verse 1 we find the phrase "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Those words, in italics, were interpolated into the text, and are not in the original, but added by the translators. Those words are also repeated in verse 4, and rightfully so.

I agree but it doesn't change the general point that I was making. Indwelling Spirit

But Paul isn't speaking of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a mystery that was kept secret since the world began, and NOW revealed to him. He is speaking of man's two natures as a result of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the Holy Spirit indwell all believer, but it is not the mystery that was revealed to Paul. The Holy Spirit indwelled believers prior to Paul.

Then why was Peter so surprised by the events in the house hold of Cornelius?[

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghosthttp://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=33113929#_ftn1
http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=33113929#_ftnref1

Well, to begin with, Peter had to be told, through a vision in Acts 10, that he should no longer call one of another nation common or unclean. This was something that I am sure was hard for Peter to understand; because God had to give him the vision 3 times.

Peter didn't go to Cornelius in fulfillment of the so called "great commission," but God instructed him to go to the house of Cornelius.

In Acts 2, Peter was speaking to only Jews and proselytes, and repentance and water baptism was a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit.

Peter was shocked that those Gentiles received the Holy Spirit without the evidence of repentance, or water baptism.

In chapter 11 we find that Peter had to rehearsed his story over and over prior to going back to Jerusalem because they would contend with him for going to Gentiles.

I don't think I'm the one on defense here.

I fail to see where you took any view to defend. How would one defend a "could be" anyway.

I did send you a book that explained Paul's apostleship and message. Either you didn't read it, or don't agree with it, and are unable to refute it.

And by the way. Good morning.

And a Good Morning to you. Have a good day.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[billychum]

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was made known prior to Paul

Can you show me where? Because this is what I was not seeing in Ken's presentation.

But Paul isn't speaking of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a mystery that was kept secret since the world began, and NOW revealed to him. He is speaking of man's two natures as a result of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I guess this is just a different interpretation that you and I have.

Peter was shocked that those Gentiles received the Holy Spirit without the evidence of repentance, or water baptism.

But vs 45 doesn't say that.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I fail to see where you took any view to defend. How would one defend a "could be" anyway.

A little confusion here. You had suggested in an earlier post that I come up with a different definition of "mystery" Sorry about that.

I did send you a book that explained Paul's apostleship and message. Either you didn't read it, or don't agree with it, and are unable to refute it.

I find some of the methodology a little troubling. But your right and I will read some more.

Billy <><