Question to fellow Calvinists

[Jpark]

What a nice way to respond...

Static theology will never be completed but a constantly being revised theology will eventually be completed.

 

[heymikey80]

And the mistakes are at:

-God has absolute foreknowledge of the future concerning creation but He does not have foreknowledge concerning Himself since that implies a dead automaton and one who is confined to what is essentially predetermination
-predetermination occurs in intervals and it is set, rather than God's constant intervention
-God's intervention is usually conditional and is the changing of predetermination and also can be revealing of predetermination

Job 36 is an antidote to the last item.

Predetermination is the same Greek word as predestination, and is before the foundation of the world, in which God has made His choices:
Eph 1:4, 11, Heb 4:3, Heb 9:26, 1 Pt 1:20

God does have foreknowledge concerning Himself. It doesn't imply a dead automaton, it implies a perfect ability to know Himself. he is at once entirely free, and entirely knowledgeable. He knows Himself, too.

 

[JM]

What a nice way to respond...

Static theology will never be completed but a constantly being revised theology will eventually be completed.

You mean semper reformanda?

 

[Jpark]

And the mistakes are at:

Job 36 is an antidote to the last item.

I didn't say it was always conditional though.

And yes, Job 36:5 indicates that God's opinion towards those who are not in Him is not hatred.

Predetermination is the same Greek word as predestination, and is before the foundation of the world, in which God has made His choices:
Eph 1:4, 11, Heb 4:3, Heb 9:26, 1 Pt 1:20

But if everything that happens is predetermined, then where does God's intervention fit in? If predetermination is unchanging, what is the purpose of God's intervention?

God does have foreknowledge concerning Himself. It doesn't imply a dead automaton, it implies a perfect ability to know Himself. he is at once entirely free, and entirely knowledgeable. He knows Himself, too.

If He knows what He's going to do in the future, then how is He not confined to predetermination?

The Constitution is called a living document because it's constantly changing. Likewise, God is called the living God. He can do what He wishes.

Heb. 4:3, "although His works were finished from the foundation of the world", describes His plan, not what He was going to do.

 

[desmalia]

What a nice way to respond...

Static theology will never be completed but a constantly being revised theology will eventually be completed.

Apologies, as I did not intend that to be mean-spirited. It's just that what you're saying has a hint of open theism to it. And I find that very concerning.

 

[Jpark]

Apologies, as I did not intend that to be mean-spirited. It's just that what you're saying has a hint of open theism to it. And I find that very concerning.

Only thing about Open Theism I integrate into my theology is that God can change His mind, plans.

Of course, I consider Scripture such as Gen. 6:6-7 to be out of line. Why would God regret creating His creation when He foreknew the Flood and the future? Clearly, the Flood was merely demonstration of His power to His believers, an example. Job 34:14-15 reveals He could have just ended life by taking away their breath.

I believe God has absolute foreknowledge of the future concerning creation. He knows everything that will happen in the world and in the universe.

But concerning Himself, His future actions, thoughts, etc., I don't believe He has foreknowledge.

 

[desmalia]

Then is it fair to say that you believe Got is constrained by, or has constrained Himself by time?

 

[heymikey80]

I didn't say it was always conditional though.

And yes, Job 36:5 indicates that God's opinion towards those who are not in Him is not hatred.

The term appears to be "despise", not "hate". The idea is one of a superior's attitude toward someone with less honor.

What does God say about it? "For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." Rom 9:15-18

Frankly, when it comes to choosing people for His mercy, God doesn't leave the issue open. It's not conditional.

But if everything that happens is predetermined, then where does God's intervention fit in? If predetermination is unchanging, what is the purpose of God's intervention?

To do what He wishes to do within His creation. God's intervention is to accomplish things in creation that only He can do; to demonstrate His own character; to cash in on His promises.

If He knows what He's going to do in the future, then how is He not confined to predetermination?

I know what I'm going to do tomorrow. How am I confined to predetermination?

The Constitution is called a living document because it's constantly changing. Likewise, God is called the living God. He can do what He wishes.

So the parts of the Constitution that don't change are dead. But that's inconsistent. The Constitution is a living document not because it's changing, but because it is used to conduct a real government today.

You're saying Scripture isn't a living document, otherwise. "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Heb 4:12

Heb. 4:3, "although His works were finished from the foundation of the world", describes His plan, not what He was going to do.

The word "works" doesn't in any way refer to a plan in Greek. This isn't a valid interpretation of the verse.

 

[Jpark]

I know what I'm going to do tomorrow. How am I confined to predetermination?

Interesting. I'll reconsider.

Then is it fair to say that you believe Got is constrained by, or has constrained Himself by time?

I'll put it under consideration. For the time being, I'll refrain from talking about God's foreknowledge, which I need to study about.

 

[Jpark]

What does God say about it? "For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." Rom 9:15-18

Frankly, when it comes to choosing people for His mercy, God doesn't leave the issue open. It's not conditional.

But Jeremiah 18:7-10, and 2 Chronicles 7:13-14 indicate that God's intervention can sometimes be conditional.

 

[heymikey80]

But Jeremiah 18:7-10, and 2 Chronicles 7:13-14 indicate that God's intervention can sometimes be conditional.

Yep. It's extremely important to recognize where Calvinism is applying things. The point where Calvinism is applying unconditionality, selectivity, imputation, and irresistibility is at specific points.

When something like God's choice is "not of human effort or will", Calvinism takes it seriously and plainly.

There're certainly other things that are conditioned to a particular action or attitude. In fact, faith could readily be one of those conditions.

But election's not based on it.

 

[AMR]

When I say God predetermined some to eternal separation from His presence and love, I don't mean that God "positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin". Likewise, I don't believe that "God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation".

Better to view the distinction along the following metaphorical lines, which captures the Biblical understanding of foreknowledge of the elect as love before time:

God justly tells the reprobate: "I am not going to force you to make the wrong choice, but I am not going to prevent you from making the wrong choice."

God graciously tells the elect: "I am not going to force you to make the wrong choice, but I am going to prevent you from making the wrong choice.

AMR

 

[Shulamite]

Better to view the distinction along the following metaphorical lines, which captures the Biblical understanding of foreknowledge of the elect as love before time:

God justly tells the reprobate: "I am not going to force you to make the wrong choice, but I am not going to prevent you from making the wrong choice."

God graciously tells the elect: "I am not going to force you to make the wrong choice, but I am going to prevent you from making the wrong choice.

AMR

Very well put