Question to fellow Calvinists

[Shulamite]

A question for fellow Calvinists..:

The pastor of the church my family and I attend is a blessing and a loving man that serves the Lord wholeheartedly. He and I have long-since enjoyed sharing books and articles about the end times, intimacy with Jesus and so forth... however, there is one area where he and I differ. He believes that Calvinism and the doctrine of Election and Predestination are wrong. He explicitly tells the congregation so from the pulpit. I feel that every other area he has preached about is scripturally 'sound' and faithful to the truth....

I have talked to the Lord about this and if I should confront my pastor (friend).... about this issue. He respects me deeply and acknowledges my calling to teach as well and we fellowship on the deep things of the Lord and it's a blessing, however, in this one area, I am deeply troubled that he adheres to Arminian theology when it comes to salvation. Would it be my place to confront him with this error or just pray for him? This past week he preached that Jesus did not die for just for the Elect, but for ALL. . (I've heard this one before....and do not agree with it at ALL!) He also said he would not want to serve a Lord who already predestined some to eternal separation from Himself. When I hear my pastor say such things, I am heartbroken, I cringe in the pew and last week I had such a heavy depression come over me after he said those things. It was like I could feel the Holy Spirit literally GRIEVE and I could feel it from within me.

I believe he means well and truly believes he is teaching correctly.... (we all know you can be sincere---- but be sincerely WRONG.!) I have felt the Lord lay on my heart that He has not yet revealed to our pastor the truth of Election in salvation (romans 9) and that the Lord would like me to intercede for the pastor rather than confront him in this error.

Any advice? I feel very alone in this revelation the Lord has given to me about Election and predestination. Only my husband seems to understand it with me. Everyone else I try to speak to about this just thinks I am "off" or "prideful" and in error.... I have told the Lord that ever since He revealed this to me (several years ago) that I have almost no one with whom to fellowship with in this! LOL

Thanks!
I wholeheartedly believe that scripture teaches from Genesis to Revelation that God sovreignly chooses His own, foreknows them, predestines them and that it is HIS sovreign choice. Amen.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I am calvinistic but am a member of a large southern baptist church where we have people of both views (even on the pastoral staff) working together to spread the gospel. We all get along great and enjoy each others views and company. The bible simply says that those who believe in Christ are saved, so that is where we unite. I don't think there is enough difference between calvinism and arminianism to break fellowship over as long as both believe in the security of the believer. Both systems believe the same things they just place faith on opposite side of regeneration, however, both systems claim one can only believe when he is given enough grace to believe. Neither are heretical. Both are in large part speculation.

 

[desmalia]

Sister, I can really relate to your struggle!

I am for the most part alone as a Calvinist too. There are a handful of people who also hold to the doctrines of grace in my city, but that's it. None of the local pastors do. And while my husband doesn't reject them, he doesn't exactly agree with them either, so I have no support there.

Two things I would like to recommend. One is that you watch this short video (particularly the last few minutes) a few times. Dr. White's explanations and defenses are very helpful.

YouTube - I Believe in Limited Atonement!
​

The other thing I'd like to suggest, is that if you and your pastor both like reading, check out Sam Storms' "Chosen for Life". And maybe offer him a copy to read too. It's a wonderful book that graciously explores and contrasts Arminian and Calvinist doctrine. It's not a debate type of book, so Arminians will not find it offensive. In fact they'll often find themselves agreeing with what he says.

Obviously you cannot change his mind. However, you can make the effort to try and help correct his error in thinking on this and pray for God to soften his heart and open his eyes.

 

[Joy4Ant4ever]

1st of all you are not alone. You may want to consider trying a Presbyterian church. Not the liberal one, but the PCA. We recently switched from a large pentecostal church to a PCA church and are very at home there. Doctorine does matter. All our Pentecostal friends look @ us cross-eyed when this subject comes up, glad my hubby and i are making new friends we can have theological discussions with!

 

[Shulamite]

Thank you all. I appreciate your "listening ear" and your willingness to give your feelings on my question. I'm taking it all into account!

I feel that there is a small remnant in the church who have been given this word or revelation from the Lord. What amazes me is when people accuse me of being prideful because I hold to Election by Sovreign Choice, what they don't realize is how it HUMBLES me to the dust of the ground. In my opinion, it's humbling and makes me sit in awe, fear, respect, intimate love and amazement.... The doctrine of Election is not prideful, but humbling.

The doctrine of "free will" is prideful in my opinion. It states that "man" is the decider and sovreign of his own fate/eternity. God is either sovreign over ALL THINGS IN CREATION/ETERNITY or He is not. Many Arminian/free will believers actually acknowledge God's Sovreignty over the universe, circumstances, etc,, but when it comes to salvation, suddenly God is not sovreign..... hmmmm....... In their estimation, God is not Sovreign over the human heart.... but He is over everything else.....

 

[ReformedChapin]

Frankly I don't know how "faithfully" he's preaching the gospel. I question peoples motives when they say "I won't believe in a good who elects certain people for salvation and other to damnation." That already tells me they are not interested in obective truth but in their subjective notion of who God really is.

I suspect you will be wasting your time if you debate this issue with him but if you do want to bring it up I suggest you start there. Trying to objectively exegete scripture not make a false idol of our own.

 

[heymikey80]

Some thoughts if you're going to discuss it with him.

Calvin himself distinguished between something that God thinks is right that He wishes in general everyone would follow (His preceptive will) and something that God has foreordained to occur (His decretive (sp?) will).

Calvin also considered God's decretive will a "secret" or "hidden" will, something that's derived from the way God has constructed creation. It's not intentionally hidden from everybody -- but it's deduced.

It's a subtle thing which, if people actually understood the God of Creation, pretty much has to be there, and they have to be distinct from one another.

However, some people would prefer that God lose His omnipotence instead of there being a difference between these two (which really doesn't resolve the problem, it's a knee-jerk reaction, which is ... why I'm a Calvinist).

The most you could probably get through to this person is that his position suffers from the same issues:

God created the world exactly like He wanted.
God was entirely aware some would reject Him and He created them that way, anyway. He intended to.

If God didn't, then He wasn't even omniscient, not to say omnipotent or even infinite.

Watch out for the "everything is about salvation" argument, too. "He made them only to condemn them." No, He made them to be an integral part of His creation, but at some point they're dragging creation down to the Abyss by their sin. I think the biggest problem with Christian evangelism by far in theology today is that everything revolves about the salvation of humans. Some things are about good & evil, some things area about creation, all things are about God, and redemption isn't going to happen to everyone.

 

[JM]

Whatever you do...don't turn bitter, don't become the cranky Calvinist. Don't spaz out on everyone and turn every discussion into, "are you a Calvinist or Arminian?" Don't get hot when people ask about Servetus. And do not quit going to church.

[FONT=&quot]jm[/FONT]

 

[JustAsIam77]

A question for fellow Calvinists..:

The pastor of the church my family and I attend is a blessing and a loving man that serves the Lord wholeheartedly. He and I have long-since enjoyed sharing books and articles about the end times, intimacy with Jesus and so forth... however, there is one area where he and I differ. He believes that Calvinism and the doctrine of Election and Predestination are wrong. He explicitly tells the congregation so from the pulpit. I feel that every other area he has preached about is scripturally 'sound' and faithful to the truth....

I have talked to the Lord about this and if I should confront my pastor (friend).... about this issue. He respects me deeply and acknowledges my calling to teach as well and we fellowship on the deep things of the Lord and it's a blessing, however, in this one area, I am deeply troubled that he adheres to Arminian theology when it comes to salvation. Would it be my place to confront him with this error or just pray for him? This past week he preached that Jesus did not die for just for the Elect, but for ALL. . (I've heard this one before....and do not agree with it at ALL!) He also said he would not want to serve a Lord who already predestined some to eternal separation from Himself. When I hear my pastor say such things, I am heartbroken, I cringe in the pew and last week I had such a heavy depression come over me after he said those things. It was like I could feel the Holy Spirit literally GRIEVE and I could feel it from within me.

I believe he means well and truly believes he is teaching correctly.... (we all know you can be sincere---- but be sincerely WRONG.!) I have felt the Lord lay on my heart that He has not yet revealed to our pastor the truth of Election in salvation (romans 9) and that the Lord would like me to intercede for the pastor rather than confront him in this error.

Any advice? I feel very alone in this revelation the Lord has given to me about Election and predestination. Only my husband seems to understand it with me. Everyone else I try to speak to about this just thinks I am "off" or "prideful" and in error.... I have told the Lord that ever since He revealed this to me (several years ago) that I have almost no one with whom to fellowship with in this! LOL

Thanks!
I wholeheartedly believe that scripture teaches from Genesis to Revelation that God sovreignly chooses His own, foreknows them, predestines them and that it is HIS sovreign choice. Amen.

The Westminster Confession of Faith may be enlightening to your pastor.
Westminster Confession of Faith

 

[JasperJackson]

I don't know how he can argue with the doctrines of election and predestination. They're not complex theological constructs (like the trinity), rather the words are in the Bible plain as day. Now, he may have a different theological explanation of what they mean and I think that would be a good starting point for you in talking to him. And yes I think you should. Talk, not confront.

Now you said he preaches that Christ died for all. Is that what he says? "All"? Or "all who believe"? Because if its just for "all" then that's universalism and is actually heretical.

 

[AMR]

The Westminster Confession of Faith may be enlightening to your pastor.
Westminster Confession of Faith

Exactly. Here you will find the proper words to be used and their context. The pastor's use of "predestined to eternal separation" is not the correct application of the term.

Predestination applies to the elect and only the elect. Start there and perhaps the conversation will go in a direction that glorifies God.

AMR

 

[Jpark]

This past week he preached that Jesus did not die for just for the Elect, but for ALL. . (I've heard this one before....and do not agree with it at ALL!)

Well, that's true. Jesus died for all. There's no denying Scripture. However, the promise is only applicable to the obedient, and likewise, God's love. In other words, although God died for all, God only loves those who obey Him.

He also said he would not want to serve a Lord who already predestined some to eternal separation from Himself. When I hear my pastor say such things, I am heartbroken, I cringe in the pew and last week I had such a heavy depression come over me after he said those things. It was like I could feel the Holy Spirit literally GRIEVE and I could feel it from within me.

God can change His mind about a person's future though. It's usually conditional. He does this because He bases His decisions on what is happening rather than people's predetermined deeds. That means if He intervened during a predetermined instance, the person can be prevented from doing what he was going to do and come to repentance.

I believe he means well and truly believes he is teaching correctly.... (we all know you can be sincere---- but be sincerely WRONG.!) I have felt the Lord lay on my heart that He has not yet revealed to our pastor the truth of Election in salvation (romans 9) and that the Lord would like me to intercede for the pastor rather than confront him in this error.

What impact does intercessory prayer have if God already knows you're going to ask it?

Like I said, God bases His decisions on what is happening. Consider Dan. 9:3, 20, 23. Did God foreknow that Daniel was going to intercede? Of course.

Also consider Gen. 3:9-13. Did God foreknow that Adam and Eve would play the blame game and did He know that they were withholding from Him their disobedience? Yes. In Gen. 3:9-13, we see intervention. God leads Adam and Eve in repentance and although they fail to take responsibility, they are forgiven nevertheless (Gen. 3:21) and their descendants are cursed in their place (Gen. 3:17).

Thanks!
I wholeheartedly believe that scripture teaches from Genesis to Revelation that God sovreignly chooses His own, foreknows them, predestines them and that it is HIS sovreign choice. Amen.

Have you considered the doctrine of adoption? Scripture shows that God can bring a non-elect person to salvation. God can show His mercy to anyone He wishes.

 

[Jpark]

Exactly. Here you will find the proper words to be used and their context. The pastor's use of "predestined to eternal separation" is not the correct application of the term.

Predestination applies to the elect and only the elect. Start there and perhaps the conversation will go in a direction that glorifies God.

AMR

When I say God predetermined some to eternal separation from His presence and love, I don't mean that God "positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin". Likewise, I don't believe that "God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation".

Rather, I view predetermination as a set, established thing (like a timeline of the past) with intervention of God sometimes being conditional and sometimes being unconditional.

This is what I believe. It doesn't show God's intervention, that predetermined things can change.

God's intervention can also be in the form of revelation. For example, God intervenes during a predetermined instance and reveals to the person what he will do before he does it.

 

[heymikey80]

Well, that's true. Jesus died for all. There's no denying Scripture.

Mmm. "Jesus died for the salvation of all" -- where's it say that, again?

For the record, it's not specifically at John 3:16, but instead saves "all who believe in Him".

However, the promise is only applicable to the obedient, and likewise, God's love. In other words, although God died for all, God only loves those who obey Him.

It appears God loves those who disobey Him, too.

God can change His mind about a person's future though. It's usually conditional.

You're setting the stage for conditional election, which isn't a Reformed view.

He does this because He bases His decisions on what is happening rather than people's predetermined deeds. That means if He intervened during a predetermined instance, the person can be prevented from doing what he was going to do and come to repentance.

Actually, Scripture says, "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy." Rom 9:16

What impact does intercessory prayer have if God already knows you're going to ask it?

Contradicting God's omniscience veers outside Reformed thought. Instead, "[Regarding prayer] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him." Matt 6:8

Like I said, God bases His decisions on what is happening. Consider Dan. 9:3, 20, 23. Did God foreknow that Daniel was going to intercede? Of course.

He does. He already knows, already knew, and is entirely aware how all will result. (Job 34)

When it comes to salvation though, He knows no one "gets it" -- Isaiah 59, Romans 3:9-20. No one is obedient enough to gain salvation.

Have you considered the doctrine of adoption? Scripture shows that God can bring a non-elect person to salvation. God can show His mercy to anyone He wishes.

I'm not really sure where this viewpoint appears, but it's not really Reformed, as far as I can tell. For example: "What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened" Rom 11:7

 

[Shulamite]

Mmm. "Jesus died for the salvation of all" -- where's it say that, again?

For the record, it's not specifically at John 3:16, but instead saves "all who believe in Him".

It appears God loves those who disobey Him, too.

You're setting the stage for conditional election, which isn't a Reformed view.

Actually, Scripture says, "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy." Rom 9:16

Contradicting God's omniscience veers outside Reformed thought. Instead, "[Regarding prayer] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him." Matt 6:8

He does. He already knows, already knew, and is entirely aware how all will result. (Job 34)

When it comes to salvation though, He knows no one "gets it" -- Isaiah 59, Romans 3:9-20. No one is obedient enough to gain salvation.

I'm not really sure where this viewpoint appears, but it's not really Reformed, as far as I can tell. For example: "What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened" Rom 11:7

Amen. 100% agreed.

I will seek the Lord as to how to approach this subject with my pastor. His very words, and I quote, were, "Jesus DID die for the whole world, every person, NOT just for the Elect, as some believe." Like I said, it was like a dagger in my soul. He has said many things like this in the recent past. I do not make it a point of contention in my church with others. I ask the Lord's wisdom in speaking with them and pray that the Lord will open their hearts, that He will grant repentance so they can understand the truth . If Jesus opens a door (opportunity) for me to speak, I will, at His leading.

Jesus did not die for the goats, or those "of" their father the devil. He died for His own sheep, those that belonged to the Father from eternity past, and then the Father gave us (the sheep) to the Son. There are only so many members to a body. If the bride (the church) is Jesus' very body, then there are only so many members to that body. The Father knows those who are His, from before time began, and made belief/salvation a real, tangible experience to those members of Christ's body and those who are appointed to believe, will believe.

Thank you all for your input! It's appreciated.

 

[ReformedChapin]

jpack while you are welcome to post here remember you are not a calvinist and based on that you cannot debate.

And I wanna say you are wrong with your "mixed" soteriology.

 

[heymikey80]

I think it's useful at this juncture to describe pretty well the range of "Jesus died to take away the sins of the world" in Calvinistic views. Here's how I see this.

It means that sins are going to be wiped out. There are indeed two means that Jesus uses to carry this out in the new creation: destruction and redemption.

We talk technically about Jesus dying "for" the elect, meaning that He died for the salvation of those He chose.

But Jesus also died and was resurrected as the King of the Universe -- everyone, every thing is now His subject. What He says goes. And sin goes.

He died "for the world" to become the King of everything and everyone. The world is undergoing new creation; we're either part of that, or part of what goes.

Some people either go with sin, others are redeemed from it.

 

[Jpark]

Mmm. "Jesus died for the salvation of all" -- where's it say that, again?

For the record, it's not specifically at John 3:16, but instead saves "all who believe in Him".

Like I said, the promise is only for the elect. But the death was for all. Jesus died for everyone so everyone could have the opportunity to come to Him. The end of John 3:16 indicates what I have just said. The promise is for the elect and the death was for all ("For God so loved the world").

It appears God loves those who disobey Him, too.

You're setting the stage for conditional election, which isn't a Reformed view.

Actually, Scripture says, "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy." Rom 9:16

1 Samuel 16:7 shows that God usually bases His decisions on what He sees. Other Scriptures also show this.

Contradicting God's omniscience veers outside Reformed thought. Instead, "[Regarding prayer] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him." Matt 6:8

I didn't say God wasn't Omniscient.

He does. He already knows, already knew, and is entirely aware how all will result. (Job 34)

Yes.

When it comes to salvation though, He knows no one "gets it" -- Isaiah 59, Romans 3:9-20. No one is obedient enough to gain salvation.

Unless they are enabled for obedience by His blood (1 Peter 1:22) and His Spirit (Titus 3:5). Then they can be obedient enough to be granted maturity (1 John 5:18). Of course, no one can attain salvation. When I say God bases His decisions on what He sees, I mean that what God sees can influence His decision.

I'm not really sure where this viewpoint appears, but it's not really Reformed, as far as I can tell. For example: "What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened" Rom 11:7

Rom. 9:15, 18 was the basis for my viewpoint.

 

[Jpark]

jpack while you are welcome to post here remember you are not a calvinist and based on that you cannot debate.

And I wanna say you are wrong with your "mixed" soteriology.

Ok. Bye then.

I came to this mixed soteriology by realizing that:

-everything that happens is God's perfect will
-Satan is subservient to God in deeds (he does the will of God) but is at enmity with God in desire
-demons obey God when God commands them to (consider Mark 5, in which Jesus uses a demon to demonstrate exorcism without authority)
-God has absolute foreknowledge of the future concerning creation but He does not have foreknowledge concerning Himself since that implies a dead automaton and one who is confined to what is essentially predetermination
-predetermination occurs in intervals and it is set, rather than God's constant intervention
-God's intervention is usually conditional and is the changing of predetermination and also can be revealing of predetermination

 

[desmalia]