Question: Speaking in Tongue

[Endure2]

i believe Jesus said very clearly in the book of Mark that all who believe can speak in new tongues and perform miracles. i dont believe Jesus back and forth from referring to the people and the disciplies in that context as some theorise.

paul express very clearly that he desired for us all to speak in tongues like himself, i dont believe paul being who paul was would have desired that if there was a truth as simple as "God doesnt want us all to speak in tongues" that we know, that paul the apostle didnt know.

i believe when paul taught in 1st cor that not all speak in tongues etc.
he was simply stating the obvious, not the absolute will of God.
i think he was just explaining how things where, and why and how we are all still equal in Christ and why and how Christ will still acomplish his desire in the earth in spite of our own shortcomings.

 

[Sketcher]

i believe Jesus said very clearly in the book of Mark that all who believe can speak in new tongues and perform miracles. i dont believe Jesus back and forth from referring to the people and the disciplies in that context as some theorise.

Quote where He said this, especially, when He said "all".

paul express very clearly that he desired for us all to speak in tongues like himself, i dont believe paul being who paul was would have desired that if there was a truth as simple as "God doesnt want us all to speak in tongues" that we know, that paul the apostle didnt know.

i believe when paul taught in 1st cor that not all speak in tongues etc.
he was simply stating the obvious, not the absolute will of God.
i think he was just explaining how things where, and why and how we are all still equal in Christ and why and how Christ will still acomplish his desire in the earth in spite of our own shortcomings.

"Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." - 1 Corinthians 12:7-11

Just as the Spirit determines. Yes, Paul was stating the obvious and showing equality whether we have tounges or not. But the Holy Spirit has a purpose for giving someone one gift and for giving someone else another. Tounges may be wonderful, but if God doesn't want to give them to one person, He doesn't have to. That is not an indictment on the person, either.

 

[apologia25]

I have been to a church before where a lot of people were speaking in tongue, the gentlemen that was preaching prior to this said.... that there were some scrolls where Moses was speaking to God that could not be interrupted and it was Moses praying to God and because satan was close by, the prayer was in tongue so satan could not interrupt it..
So does that mean noone else could of interrupted it either or do they have to be in spirit or is the entire scripture about language instead of tongue?
I am asking for explanation on this scripture
(If this isnt the correct place to ask this, please point to me another thread)
Thanks
1 corinthians 14:27-28
Verse 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two,or at the most three, and that of course ; and let one interpret.
verse28 but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Hello there,
I am unsure who your pastor is but there is no such story or narrative in Genesis nor s the gift of tongues mentioned in the O.T. On this matter I would highly suggest you ask him and see what his response is. If he can show you the exact scripture then that is great(although its not there), but if he responds in a bad way you know you have caught him in twisting the scriptures.

 

[apologia25]

Brother,
to suggest the what our brother is saying is to read something into the text which is not there. There is a gift of tongues and a gift of interpretation of tongues they are two and like all gifts some will have and others not. Paul's sentence is to be taken literally and the person speaking in the tongue if not interpreted does not build up the body of Christ thus failing the test of the work of the Spirit. All the gifts will work for the encouraging and building of the entire body.

 

[Endure2]

twistedsketch

well its a common scripture from mark 16.16-17

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.

it is very clear that he is speaking about all people. becuase we know
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved
refers to ALL willing to believe.
and the same wording is used in the second verse that speaks of
these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.

there is no reason to think it speaks only of certain people or wed be able to be able to believe Jesus was speaking only of certain people in verse 16 too.


i know the verse you quoted, thats what i was refferring too in my earlier post.
but it still doesnt prove that Jesus saying all who believed could speak in new tongues didnt really mean that, and it doesnt prove that paul desiring it for ALL people wasnt justified.

certainly he doesnt have too give it if he doesnt want too, but that idea is as about as unbiblical as "well if God doesnt want to save you he doesnt have too" becuase he does want us all saved, and he does want us all to speak in tongues.

i know it doesnt happen, paul knew it didnt happen. but as he explained we all do still have gifts and God still uses us.
but us not having tongues is no diffrent than us not being free from a ceratain kind of sin when we know clearly that God does desire us to be and has given us the provision to be.
we have to grow up in Christ, there are many things God desires of us that we do not do or have now. but that has never meant that it must not be Gods will before and it wont start now.

the bible is clear that God wants all people to be saved, but not all are.
the same with christians speaking in tongues.
many christians struggle with things like pornography, lying, stealing, but God does desire is be free from that, but we arent.
its a process.

 

[Tenorvoice]

Alright guys

Mod Hat on

Lets not start the debating here

Mod hat off

 

[Endure2]

im sorry.
i hadnt read the rules. wont happen again.

 

[Tenorvoice]

quite alright, no worries.

 

[apologia25]

It seems there is much discussion on this matter. I am not trying to be the solve all just stating my opinion. The gift of tongues is a real gift, not like speaking spanish. I will say one thing some people do have gifts of speaking in other languages for their tongue. It can be confusing to look at Acts and then discern through Paul's words in the Corinthian letters. On the day of pentecost, we see there were many nationalities present and thus we see God's plan for rapid propagation of the gospel in every tongue that was present(but that is just one example). Just because it happened one time like that doesn't mean it will now. I have had friend praying with foreigner and they were speaking in tongues and the person from china heard her native tongue. God can use that for His kingdom. At the same time we see that Paul expresses rules for a unruly hypercharismatic(forgive the word) church. Another problem that is there today is this the idea of Prophecying in tongues. Yes people will point out their proof texts. However the gift of tongues is a praise language to God as said in 1 cor 14. prophecy then becomes a meshing of two separate gifts. there is so much forcing of tongues for acceptance that many don't have the gift and are just fudging. I may be the only one honest to say it. As I experienced it myself when the people praying for me to receive said just speak as fast as possible, I came up with this androgynous tongue that was forced. Our actions. I just have one question if God speaks of a body how is it that some people think that everybody can be a hand or a foot and we mold them into the image at what point does it become the tradition of men?

 

[Spiritual_essence]

uhh.... people.

the bible is too clear.

1 cor 14.2
for the that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not to men but unto God; for no man understandeth him...

no it is not going to be understandable all the time. no it is not going to always be in a recognisable language, no there may not be anyone able to understand it present. the spanish language sounds like gibberish to be but it doesnt matter. and the bible says you arent always going to understand this either, it said that sometimes NO MAN understands it.

Yes ..This is what ive known it to be as well. I have heard people speak in tongues and when i asked about it to my pastor that is what he told me. that tongues is a direct language between that person and God to where know one may understand it but the one who spoke it and God himself....
Ive also seen poeple (relatives) become " slain in the spirit" to where they actually pass out...maybe from the overwhelming feeling of Christ...

 

[sandman]

to suggest the what our brother is saying is to read something into the text which is not there. There is a gift of tongues and a gift of interpretation of tongues they are two and like all gifts some will have and others not. Paul's sentence is to be taken literally and the person speaking in the tongue if not interpreted does not build up the body of Christ thus failing the test of the work of the Spirit. All the gifts will work for the encouraging and building of the entire body.

There are three major points I would like to address in an effort to clarify my position in my original post{#2}…and in response to the PM I received from Apologia25.

• Gifts - which will cover “There is a gift of tongues and a gift of interpretation of tongues they are two and like all gifts some will have and others not”
• All the gifts will work for the encouraging and building of the entire body.
• To back up my OP http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14667280&postcount=2

I try to avoid long posts …..but sometimes it’s not possible. I may just end up posting each point individually in order to avoid one long post

I would first like to address the use of the word gift because thiscontributes to the school of thought that it is not our will but Gods will who is able to speak in tongues or operate any of the other 8 manifestations. God makes his will perfectly clear when we read what is written but confusion has come about due to words that have been added.

Many times throughout the Bible translators have added words to help enhance the meaning of scripture. For the most part the KJV has these words in italics; sometimes they are well supplied, sometimes not. In chapters 12, 13, &14 of I Corinthians the word gifts has been added four times 12:1, as well as 13:2, 14:1 & 12. These should be deleted, as they are not in the original text. Now a fair question to ask is: why is the word gift not well supplied in these verses? Because verse 7 of Chapter 12 changes from what was being talked about, which were gifts, to something else.

Verse 4 of I Corinthians 12 speaks of the diversities of gifts of which there are 7 in number given to the Church of the Body of Christ {“5 gift ministries” listed in Ephesians} {“holy spirit” the gift given at new birth} and {“gifts of healing” because every healing is a gift, yet it is still an operation or manifestation of the spirit }. Then in verse 6 it states that God is the one who energizes {worketh} each operation. In verse 7 it changes form gifts to manifestation. Verse 7 “But the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal”The word but sets in contrast that which precedes it … verses 4-6 was dealing with gifts, but now it’s changed form gifts to manifestations; so what’s the difference between gift and manifestation. A gift is individually given and you do not have it unless someone gives it to you, A manifestation is an evidence, a showing forth of something you already have. If someone gives you a cell phone; that’s a gift. You make calls, do text messaging, take a picture; that is the manifestation of the phone. What if someone gave you a phone with all the features, but you didn’t know about the features, could you manifest them? How about if you were only aware of how to make a call. You would still have all the other features available, but you could not manifest them, because you didn’t know they were available. Although it is tough to compare a cell phone to holy spirit, {as I can’t think one time I have had a dropped call from holy spirit} but you can draw several similarities allegorically.

The word manifestation in the Greek is phanerôsis meaning “to be visible,” “bring to light,” “or open to sight” “to show forth in the sense world”. What is it that we are to bring to light? Verse 7 says the spirit, verse 7 further goes on to say that it is given to every man {all inclusive} every person who is born again of God.



If we call these a gift we put ourselves in the position in waiting for God to give us one or more of the so-called gifts listed in verses 8-10. It stimulates believers to hope, desire, pray and beg for something, and then to question their righteousness, their walk, their goodness, and their worthiness, as to why they do not receive it. I have even seen at times the prompting of fake tongues amongst well meaning groups because individuals so yearn and desire to manifest. Why is this …because calling it a gift makes God a respecter of persons as to who He gives these “gifts” to; and we know that God is no respecter of persons as the Bible states in Acts 10:34, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25. …..God is a respecter of conditions, the condition being “believing”, believing for what is available. For God to give you two “gifts” {quote un quote}, and only give me one …would make him a respecter of persons, that is why the word gifts does not fit into these verses as much as people want to squeeze it in. by squeezing the word gifts in this verse it takes the accountability off of the believer (where it should be) and puts it on God; as in: “well God has not seen fit to give me the gift of tongues, prophecy, word of knowledge,” etc.

But God has seen you fit, God did His part when He put His seed {holy spirit, the gift} in you; it is up to you, not God, to make the next move; your next move is to believe, and believing is a verb which connotes action. We have the gift of holy spirit within us and now God is saying we should manifest that spirit as laid out in verses 8-10.

I will into go into verses 8-10 at this time but I do want to cover verse 11 as this also leads to controversy regarding this subject.

I Cor. 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Some say the words “severely as he will” are referring to as God wills. If that were the case then God just contradicted Himself from verse 7 where He stated “is given to every man” Furthermore the word severely is the Greek word idia from idios meaning “ones own” Of the 114 times the word idios is used in the Bible, this is the only place it is translated severely. Usually translated “one’s own” “his own” “your own”. In II Peter 1:20 the word idios is translated “privately”, and if it’s private it is pretty much ones own. By using the correct rendering of this word idios verse 11 would read “dividing (distributing) to every man his own, as he (the man) will”

There is much more to these verses, but I just want tostress the point that these are not gifts, but a manifestation of the gift ….. of holy spirit.

 

[sandman]

#2

All the gifts will work for the encouraging and building of the entire body.

That is true .,………….to a degree, however according to the words that God has chosen to use here in verses 8-10 it would be more accurately stated that seven of the nine manifestations are for a profit to others; two of the manifestations are specifically a profit to that individual operating.

The first word in verse 8 of I Cor. 12 is the word For which is a conjunction setting in correspondence with the profit of verse 7 (remember in the originals there were no chapters or verses) God is now informing us as to how this profit takes place.

The word another employs two different Greek words for the word from verses 8-10 of I Corinthians 12
Seven of the manifestations are associated with the Greek word allos, which is translated and used as another when two or more may be involved. (see Matthew 4:21; 21:8, 36 & 41}
Heteros is used for another when only two are involved {the individual and God}(see Matthew 6:24 & Luke 5:7)

The word heteros is used with the manifestation of both speaking in tongues and faith. These two manifestations are specifically for the individual believer’s profit. You can see the profit of tongues from a previous post http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15658286&postcount=4

The manifestation of faith (believing) which is when the individual believes for the impossible to come to pass at his command to his received revelation by word of knowledge word of wisdom discerning of spirits this profits only the believer operating it. Others may profit or benefit from the result of the operation, but not from the manifestation itself. Heteros is used in both these operations because it is only God and the believer involved.

A side note: the manifestation of believing (faith) is different from that, of other uses of the Greek word pistis, which is translated faith or believing.

The other 7 manifestations of the spirit may be of profit to others besides the person operating them and as such God uses the word allos with these manifestations.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






The third point is in reference to the PM that I received from apologia25 regarding my post on this thread {#2}. In the PM he asked me how I reached my conclusion regarding this, as he believes that the interpretation is given by a distinctly different person; one of the points being, was the semicolon in verse 27 after coarse;

This was my post:

These verses are in context with the rest of chap 14, where Paul by revelation is setting the doctrine for those in Corinth where there was obvious confusion with tongues, interpretation, and prophecy.

Verse 27 sets the standard for tongues in a meeting.

27:If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; {in order} and let one {same one or each one} interpret.

The Greek text employs the word heis meaning “the one in the same” not someone else.
Other examples of heis are in I Cor 14:5 & 13; Luke12:52; Romans3:30


28:But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
But in verse 28 sets in contrast that in verse 27 “if there be no interpreter” or “if he lacks the will to interpret” let him keep silent in the church …

I Corinthians 14:5 5: I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

The word except {is a strong expression} so that the church {the called out} may receive edification. Paul by revelation is reproving the called out at Corinth on the use of the manifestation of tongues, interpretation, and prophecy. Obviously there were some things going out there that were out of order; and this is just as applicable to some of the called out today.

Note also that it states except he interpret not someone else. We have to follow grammatical structure, which applies to both Greek and English. When “he” applies to the person speaking we cannot change the rules of application to suite our beliefs. In order for this to reference a totally different person, it would have to read, in the third person, they; the same would apply in verse 13. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

In verse 28 of my post I made the statement if he” lacks the will to interpret”. To explain that further the word no in that verse is the Greek word mē, which is a conditional negation, depending on feeling as opposed to the Greek word ou which would be a full and direct negation not depending on any condition, expressed or implied; based on fact.

ou is objective mē is subjective. If we were talking about someone else an interpreter not being there to interpret the tongues the word no would have to be ou, but it is not. The word for no in this verse is mē,and it referring to the person who may lack the will, or desire to interpret.


As for the use of the semicolon in verse 27 after the word coarse; We must remember that punctuation was added by translators as a means to help clarify what is written. I am thankful to those who spent countless hours, days, years, adding punctuation, paragraphs, capitols, verses, chapters, and chapter headings; so much of this we take for granted. But we must always remember that this is the work of translators, these things were not in the originals. Most of the time they are well supplied but not always so we must always interpret according to context not according to punctuation. As little significance as this may seem I can think of a few areas where a comma in the wrong pace changes the entire meaning of the context. There is one area where a verse is divided right in the middle of two chapters. There is one place in the Bible where a single comma covers an entire period, the grace period. Punctuation is good for reference but it is not God breathed.