Question Regarding the 'Purgatory'

MoreCoffee · Oct 12, 2012

Thanks Lion King, for your comments. I do not intend to get too involved in a to and fro over the passages mentioned in my earlier post. You can take or leave the perspective I gave. The one point that I want to make is that the Catholic Church uses the passages in various documents that discuss purgatory. If you are inclined to see them differently that is your call.

Cheers

Lion King · Oct 12, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
Thanks Lion King, for your comments. I do not intend to get too involved in a to and fro over the passages mentioned in my earlier post. You can take or leave the perspective I gave. The one point that I want to make is that the Catholic Church uses the passages in various documents that discuss purgatory. If you are inclined to see them differently that is your call.

Cheers

I will take what you have said into consideration. Anyway, thank you for taking the time to answer some of my questions.

God bless.

Rhamiel · Oct 12, 2012

As I asked your colleague earlier: do you mean to say that some believers will undergo punishment between death and resurrection?

If yes, which type of believer will undergo this "temporal punishment" as someone eloquently put it earlier?

yes, but not for the entire time, just part of the time
though, through a vision, it was said that someone was going to spend the time from the moment of death untill the ressurection in Purgatory, but then people prayed for her and she went to heaven
it is believed that prayers can help people get out of Purgatory faster.
as for who goes to Purgatory?
um, just about everyone I think

as I stated earlier, the actural doctrine about Purgatory is very little, so a lot of this is just left up to each individual and to theologians.
It is generally understood that everyone has a bad habbit or two

you allso brought up a good point earlier
"why would God ask us to be perfect if we are not able to be"
the answer to that is
I am not sure
that is something i have allways had trouble understanding

Rhamiel · Oct 12, 2012

Is Maccabees part of the Scriptures? I'm sorry, but I haven't read the book of Maccabees to hold any opinions on it.

it is part of the Bible the Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox use
it was used by greek speaking jews at the time of Christ

Albion · Oct 12, 2012

Lion King said:
Does 1 Cor 3:15 and 1 Pet 1:7 talk of PURIFICATION? I thought the passage speaks about our works/labors and faith being tested by fire to see whether they are worthy of a reward in heaven? No?

Correct. The rest is extrapolated.

Is Maccabees part of the Scriptures? I'm sorry, but I haven't read the book of Maccabees to hold any opinions on it.

It was not considered part of the Scriptures by the Jews of Jesus' homeland in his time, although it was considered so by the overseas emigrant communities of Jews. So it's been a theological football since. Anyway, the passage in question tells of Jews praying for fallen comrades that they be loosed from their sins (in the afterlife).

The problem there--aside from the standing of Maccabees itself--is that the practice is reported, not endorsed or advocated. What's more, the action of praying for the dead, or for something in particular to happen or not happen to them, is just a reflection of a human yearning. It has nothing to do with God's actual workings, the nature of the afterlife, or anything else in that vein.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Oct 12, 2012

Lion King said:
Is Maccabees part of the Scriptures? I'm sorry, but I haven't read the book of Maccabees to hold any opinions on it.

You know, I don't think that the Maccabean corpus or any of the other deuterocanonical books are part of canonical scripture. But they're a vital link between the Old Testament and New Testament and provide the most reliable source for the early interpretation of the Old Testament and are part of the essential context to understanding the New Testament. I just can't take someone's exegesis of either testament seriously who hasn't read them.

Rhamiel · Oct 12, 2012

Albion said:
Correct. The rest is extrapolated.

It was not considered part of the Scriptures by the Jews of Jesus' homeland in his time, although it was considered so by the overseas emigrant communities of Jews. So it's been a theological football since. Anyway, the passage in question tells of Jews praying for fallen comrades that they be loosed from their sins (in the afterlife).

The problem there--aside from the standing of Maccabees itself--is that the practice is reported, not endorsed or advocated. What's more, the action of praying for the dead, or for something in particular to happen or not happen to them, is just a reflection of a human yearning. It has nothing to do with God's actual workings, the nature of the afterlife, or anything else in that vein.

I am not sure if you can say that "it was not considered part of Scriptures by the Jews of Jesus' homeland in his time"
when we read the Bible we see that the jews at the time of Jesus did not agree on many things, with many differant factions among them
i believe that it was not untill after the spread of Christianity that the jews rejected the books of Maccabees

Albion · Oct 12, 2012

Rhamiel said:
I am not sure if you can say that "it was not considered part of Scriptures by the Jews of Jesus' homeland in his time"

Well, these books were not part of the Hebrew Bible and didn't get accepted among the Christians for some time thereafter. As you know, they were still a subject of debate as late as the Council of Trent.

i believe that it was not untill after the spread of Christianity that the jews rejected the books of Maccabees

I'm pretty sure that that's inaccurate.

MoreCoffee · Oct 12, 2012

It is worth noting that some of the books which Protestants exclude from their old testament but which Catholic and Orthodox christians include were among the sacred texts of the Qumran community - the dead sea scrolls.

SummaScriptura · Oct 13, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
It is worth noting that some of the books which Protestants exclude from their old testament but which Catholic and Orthodox christians include were among the sacred texts of the Qumran community - the dead sea scrolls.

Yes. This is true.

It is also notable that Protestants follow in the example first set by Catholics in deleting books from the Bible. There are more books in Bibles of the (older) Orthodox tradition(s) than in Catholic or Protestant ones.

MoreCoffee · Oct 13, 2012

SummaScriptura said:
Yes. This is true.

It is also notable that Protestants follow in the example first set by Catholics in deleting books from the Bible. There are more books in Bibles of the (older) Orthodox tradition(s) than in Catholic or Protestant ones.

Give a moment's thought to history and your bible; I think you'll quickly realise that the church in Rome was founded before any church existed in Constantinople. In apostolic times Constantinople was known as Byzantium and it was a village not a great city and not the capital city of the Roman empire.

Think about it; Orthodoxy had its roots in Constantinople when the bishops there sought to assert their importance as the see of saint Andrew (brother of saint Peter) and the seat of empire. Rome had asserted its importance for similar reasons, the see of saints Peter and Paul, seat of the empire, centre of power. The former was centre of power when Christianity was already accepted as the imperial religion and Constantine had moved the capital to the new city which he ordered to be built and which he named after himself. The latter was centre of Imperial power then Christianity was rejected and Claudius was emperor.

Saint Paul wrote a letter to the church in Rome before he visited (as a prisoner) the city. Thus there was already a church in Rome before Paul wrote to them. Think on these things and you will realise the the older church is in fact the one in Rome.

SummaScriptura · Oct 13, 2012

So Orthodoxy did not exist before it was established in Constantinople? I think Antioch and Jerusalem predated both Rome and Constantinople, as I think over history and the Bible that is.

MoreCoffee · Oct 13, 2012

SummaScriptura said:
So Orthodoxy did not exist before it was established in Constantinople? I think Antioch and Jerusalem predated both Rome and Constantinople, as I think over history and the Bible that is.

Yes, the church in Jerusalem does predate and the church in Antioch may predate the establishment of the church in Rome and all three predate the establishment of the city of Constantinople by about three hundred years. The point that I made is this, Orthodoxy as a distinct church was (and to a degree still is) centred in Constantinople (now called Istanbul) and that the church we call Orthodox today has its roots in the mounting differences between the church in Rome and the church in Constantinople during the centuries following the episcopacy of Photius of Constantinople (Around 858-886 AD). Google his name and check him out.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Oct 13, 2012

SummaScriptura said:
Yes. This is true.

It is also notable that Protestants follow in the example first set by Catholics in deleting books from the Bible. There are more books in Bibles of the (older) Orthodox tradition(s) than in Catholic or Protestant ones.

This is fair point, and is exactly the reason the Oxford Study Bible includes 3 and 4 Maccabees, 2 Esdras, and several other texts so as to include the broadest possible canon in one binding. And thank God, because 2 Esdras and 4 Maccabees are absolutely fascinating texts that provide immediate context to New Testament studies.

MoreCoffee · Oct 13, 2012

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
This is fair point, and is exactly the reason the Oxford Study Bible includes 3 and 4 Maccabees, 2 Esdras, and several other texts so as to include the broadest possible canon in one binding. And thank God, because 2 Esdras and 4 Maccabees are absolutely fascinating texts that provide immediate context to New Testament studies.

The Orthodox Study Bible contains

2 Ezra (Esdras)
3 Macabbees
Psalm 151
Letter of Jeremiah

The letter of Jeremiah is included in the Latin/Catholic version of Baruch.

Moses Medina · Oct 13, 2012

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
This is fair point, and is exactly the reason the Oxford Study Bible includes 3 and 4 Maccabees, 2 Esdras, and several other texts so as to include the broadest possible canon in one binding. And thank God, because 2 Esdras and 4 Maccabees are absolutely fascinating texts that provide immediate context to New Testament studies.

Hello good sir, you are indeed convincing me to buy the Oxford Study Bible more and more.

(referring to your original input that I read from the ESV Lutheran Study bible topic in the Lutheran Forum)

Knee V · Oct 13, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
Give a moment's thought to history

Constantinople was never "the center" of Orthodoxy, nor is our identity as Orthodox Christians found in a city or any particular see. Sure, Constantinople may have been at the head of the table for those in the East for some time, but she was hardly the only one at the table, nor do we look to her for any claim of "ancientness". You're making an argument out of nothing here, my friend.

smachen · Oct 13, 2012

Perhaps I shouldn't have asked about the Purgatory in the first place because now I've ignited this lenghty Catholic vs. Protestants match. Oh dear.

Moses Medina · Oct 13, 2012

smachen said:
Perhaps I shouldn't have asked about the Purgatory in the first place because now I've ignited this lenghty Catholic vs. Protestants match. Oh dear.

It always does.

Albion · Oct 13, 2012

smachen said:
Perhaps I shouldn't have asked about the Purgatory in the first place because now I've ignited this lenghty Catholic vs. Protestants match. Oh dear.

Don't feel too apologetic about it. Someone starts a Purgatory thread on schedule about every other week...and then we restate everything that was said in the previous one.

Question Regarding the 'Purgatory'

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