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your last point is kind of off topicWhat makes you think those of us who don't believe in Purgatory will believe just by reading a piece of man-made Catholic doctrine? It is of no value to us and is wrong in two areas: First: Purgatory is a fictional place and second: Our eternal home is not Heaven (read Rev. 21).
I never think that anybody will be converted by reading some text, conversion is altogether a different thing from reading. But I hope that God will warm a heart when the truth is near and bring light to eyes that are searching for it. Such is the way the gospel has always been presented and received:What makes you think those of us who don't believe in Purgatory will believe just by reading a piece of man-made Catholic doctrine? It is of no value to us and is wrong in two areas: First: Purgatory is a fictional place and second: Our eternal home is not Heaven (read Rev. 21).
You do not have a clue what purgatory is, do you?
I never think that anybody will be converted by reading some text, conversion is altogether a different thing from reading.
your last point is kind of off topic
the Catholic Church teaches about the ressurection of the dead and the restoration of the earth at the end of time
Let him speak for himselfClearly he does. That rhyme was what got the reformation going. Pope Leo X authorized Albretch, archbishop of Mainz, to sell indulgences to people through various agents- including Johann Tetzel- for the release of their loved ones from purgatory. This is a historical fact, and it was the reason Martin Luther wrote the 95 Theses in the first place.
Thank you. Sometimes speaking for oneself is not the proper action.Clearly he does. That rhyme was what got the reformation going. Pope Leo X authorized Albretch, archbishop of Mainz, to sell indulgences to people through various agents- including Johann Tetzel- for the release of their loved ones from purgatory. This is a historical fact, and it was the reason Martin Luther wrote the 95 Theses in the first place.
so if you got a bat and walked into a store and just started beating on innocent people that would not be a sins?
or what if you lie to someone?
Jesus said that if you look at a woman with lust, then you have commited fornication in your heart
are you saying that God just ignores these actions now? that He does not see them and that these actions have no effect on how you are?
Purgatory has nothing whatsoever to do with the forgiveness of sins or with the cleansing of sins and everything to do with the change of character and of will that happens to the faithful as they become perfectly in union with Christ.When was David cleansed/purified of his sins against the LORD? Was it after his death, or was it after his treachery against Uriah the Hittite?
Purgatory has nothing whatsoever to do with the forgiveness of sins or with the cleansing of sins and everything to do with the change of character and of will that happens to the faithful as they become perfectly in union with Christ.
PURGATORY: A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in Gods friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but what is purgatory exactly? I was always under the assumption that [according to the RCC tradition] purgatory was a place where all saints where made clean/pure/perfect before entering the Kingdom of God?
Anyway, are you implying that we are not currently in "perfect union" with Christ?
PURGATORY: A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.
Related passages
- 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
- Mt 12:31-32.
- 2 Macc 12:46.
- Job 1:5.
RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD: The raising of the righteous, who will live forever with the risen Christ, on the last day. The eleventh article of the Christian creed states, I believe in the resurrection of the body. The resurrection of the body means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our mortal bodies (Rom 8:11) will come to life again.[/list]I'm converted.
I find I do believe in Purgatory!
Its just that all this time I've been referring to it as resurrection, which happens in the twinkling of an eye.
You have convinced me!
the Catholic Church does not teach how long it takes or if it can even be properly understood as being "in time" at all[/list]I'm converted.
I find I do believe in Purgatory!
Its just that all this time I've been referring to it as resurrection, which happens in the twinkling of an eye.
You have convinced me!
PURGATORY: A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.
Related passages
- 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
- Mt 12:31-32.
- 2 Macc 12:46.
- Job 1:5.
To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
No, we are not yet in perfect union with Christ, we are united to him yet we sin and sin wounds and can fracture the union we have with God in Christ. Many a person, through sin of various kinds, draws away from God and ceases to seek him. Sometimes this happens for a time and they return, sometimes it happens and they do not return.
do you have any translation of the Bible you prefer?Could you please, if you do not mind, go through each passage you have quoted there and briefly explain how they support the doctrine of purgatory?
It would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
do you have any translation of the Bible you prefer?
I will just use the NIV if it is all the same to you
the Gospel according to St.Matthew 12:31-32
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Jesus says that the sin of Blasphemy will not be forgiven in this age or the "age to come"
why would Jesus point out that it would not be forgiven in the next age unless some sins could be/would be forgiven in the age to come
now the NIV uses the word "age" but the King James and the Douay Rheims uses the word "world" so the sin will not be forgiven in the next world
why point this out unless there was a common belief that some sins could be forgiven in the next world
1 Corinthians 3: 11-15
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each persons work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be savedeven though only as one escaping through the flames.
these verses talk about people who make mistakes, and will tested with fire, even suffer a loss, but they will still be saved
Protestants tend to say that this is about earthly troubles, Catholics see this as being about the next life
but it is not like one group uses the Bible and the other ignores it!
we just have differant interpretations
Allso, the Gospel According to St.Matthew 5:25-26
25 Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Jesus talks about being judged, and being "thrown into prison" but only untill the last penny is paid, not forever as we all know hell is forever, but for a set time
1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7. Speak of purification by fire; mainly of purification because the fire is somewhat incidental.Could you please, if you do not mind, go through each passage you have quoted there and briefly explain how they support the doctrine of purgatory?Related passages
- 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
- Mt 12:31-32.
- 2 Macc 12:46.
- Job 1:5.
It would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
Temporal means in time, over time, of a finite duration; in short, temporary. Thus temporal punishment is punishment of a finite duration as distinct from the eternal punishment envisioned for hell.What exactly is "temporal punishment" of sin?To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the eternal punishment of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the temporal punishment of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
The passages you cited speak ofForgive me, but doesn't the bold part go against the Scriptures? I mean, the Scriptures do say that the saints are perfect in the LORD:No, we are not yet in perfect union with Christ, we are united to him yet we sin and sin wounds and can fracture the union we have with God in Christ. Many a person, through sin of various kinds, draws away from God and ceases to seek him. Sometimes this happens for a time and they return, sometimes it happens and they do not return.
[1] Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48
[2] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. Colossians 1:28-29[3]Jesus said unto him, If you will be perfect, go and sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Matthew 19:21
Why would the LORD demand perfection if it was unattainable while on earth?
1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7. Speak of purification by fire; mainly of purification because the fire is somewhat incidental.
Mt 12:31-32. Speaks of the a role for forgiveness and unforgiveness in the world to come as distinct from this world.
2 Macc 12:46. Speaks of atonement for the dead and absolution from sins for the same. "Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin."
Job 1:5. Speaks of prayer on behalf of and sacrifice for another.
With the passage of time, and thought about how an imperfect human being can stand in the presence of God in heaven unless his imperfection were in some way purged away, the Church came to the conclusion that the above scriptures speak, by implication and spiritually, of this transition from imperfect to perfect. Since the process is likened to purging gold and other precious things of impurities the name "purgatory" came to be attached to it. Thus the definition, which I quoted previously from the glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, says
PURGATORY: A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in Gods friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.
Temporal means in time, over time, of a finite duration; in short, temporary. Thus temporal punishment is punishment of a finite duration as distinct from the eternal punishment envisioned for hell.
The passages you cited speak ofI added [red numbers] to the verses in your post that correspond to the numbers in my reply above.
- God's perfection - urging Christ's disciples to seek God's perfection.
- The final perfection of Christians when they are presented before God in heaven.
- Perfection in a temporal and earthly sense through the giving away of one's worldly wealth in order to follow the Lord - this is the basis for the vow of poverty taken by many who choose to live a religious life in a community of the faithful who have vowed to live a life of poverty, chastity, and obedient.
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