Question Regarding the 'Purgatory'

[smachen]

Some Christians say the 'Purgatory' does exist. Others say it doesn't. But what does the Holy Bible say? Does it even mention a 'Purgatory'? (I haven't finsihed reading the entire Holy Bible so I wouldn't know whether it ever mentions such a place or not).

 

[dysert]

Some Christians say the 'Purgatory' does exist. Others say it doesn't. But what does the Holy Bible say? Does it even mention a 'Purgatory'? (I haven't finsihed reading the entire Holy Bible so I wouldn't know whether it ever mentions such a place or not).

The concept of purgatory is not derived from the 66-book Protestant Bible. It comes from the Apocryphal books in the Catholic Bible.

 

[revrobor]

It isn't mentioned in the Bible used by protestants and was made up by Roman Catholics from several verses in the Apocrypha of their Bible. It does not exist.

 

[Knee V]

The concept of purgatory is not derived from the 66-book Protestant Bible. It comes from the Apocryphal books in the Catholic Bible.

It isn't mentioned in the Bible used by protestants and was made up by Roman Catholics from several verses in the Apocrypha of their Bible. It does not exist.

The Catholics do not restrict purgatory to verses in the "Apocrypha". They use many New Testament verses to try to justify it as well. We Orthodox use the "Apocrypha" as well (although we don't use that term - Scripture is Scripture), although we do not believe in purgatory and do not believe that any verses in those books justify that belief, just as we do not believe that any of the New Testament verses justify that belief either. Nothing in the "Apocryphal" books teaches purgatory.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

The Catholics do not restrict purgatory to verses in the "Apocrypha". They use many New Testament verses to try to justify it as well. We Orthodox use the "Apocrypha" as well (although we don't use that term - Scripture is Scripture), although we do not believe in purgatory and do not believe that any verses in those books justify that belief, just as we do not believe that any of the New Testament verses justify that belief either. Nothing in the "Apocryphal" books teaches purgatory.

Exactly. Trying to pin purgatory on the deuterocanon is a cheep trick to get Protestants out of actually having to engage the argument.

Catholics use 2 Maccabees 12 as evidence for the practice of praying for the dead and making expiation for their sins. However, this doesn't necessary mean there is a realm called purgatory, but merely that commending the dead to God's care (through prayer) and hoping that sins they retained on earth will be loosed upon entering heaven (through prayer) is a proper funerary practice.

More often, 1 Corinthians 3:15 is used to show that there is a postmortum fire that purges sin, and I think we all agree on the canonicity of 1 Corinthians.

In any case, there is a simple logic to purging (though not necessarily "purgatory") that Protestants often miss. Catholic theology makes a distinction between the eternal and the temporal punishment for sin. Thus, if you commit a crime (say theft), Christ certainly died so that you would not go to hell for the theft, but that doesn't mean to don't go to jail in the meantime. The same is true of all sins- all sins merit damnation, but all sins also come with negative consequences in the temporal realm.

Purgatory is simply a way to deal with the temporal consequences. All sins are burnt away in that purging fire, not so that you can get to heaven on your own merits, but so that when you do get to heaven you are free not only of eternal damnation but of all the penalties and consequences that go along with sin.

Once you accept the logic that A. there is a distinction between the eternal and temporal consequences of sin, and B. that Christ's death covers the former while only his merits (and the merits of the saints, and indulgences, and masses for the dead, etc.) cover the latter, then the need for some sort of purging because rather obvious.

I don't entirely buy into the Catholic interpretation of B. I think distinction A is necessary and that B is important for all systems of law enforcement (imagine if thieves, murderers, and rapists could just say "but I'm forgiven, officer!"), but I can't buy into the logic that Christ's merits, indulgence, masses for the dead, etc., are the way to push someone along through purgatory.

I'm not sure where I end up, then- Is there purgatory? Is there an instantaneous purging upon death? Is 2 Maccabees 12 a good model for a Christian funeral?- but the issue is far more complex than throwing competing biblical canons at one another.

 

[dysert]

Exactly. Trying to pin purgatory on the deuterocanon is a cheep trick to get Protestants out of actually having to engage the argument.

I assure you that I wasn't trying a cheap trick.

More often, 1 Corinthians 3:15 is used to show that there is a postmortum fire that purges sin, and I think we all agree on the canonicity of 1 Corinthians.

I don't see 1 Cor. 3:15 as teaching a purging of sin. It specifically says that it's our *works* that would get burned. When someone becomes a Christian s/he is justified so that God no longer sees us as sinful creatures but rather He sees us through the filter of Christ. In God's eyes, our sins have been removed from us as far as the east is from the west.

In any case, there is a simple logic to purging (though not necessarily "purgatory") that Protestants often miss. Catholic theology makes a distinction between the eternal and the temporal punishment for sin. Thus, if you commit a crime (say theft), Christ certainly died so that you would not go to hell for the theft, but that doesn't mean to don't go to jail in the meantime. The same is true of all sins- all sins merit damnation, but all sins also come with negative consequences in the temporal realm.

I don't think I've missed anything. The temporal punishment for sin occurs here in this life. Once we're dead the punishment is over and we're with Christ (2 Cor. 5:8).

Once you accept the logic that A. there is a distinction between the eternal and temporal consequences of sin, and B. that Christ's death covers the former while only his merits (and the merits of the saints, and indulgences, and masses for the dead, etc.) cover the latter, then the need for some sort of purging because rather obvious.

I don't understand what you're trying to say in point B. Are you making a distinction between Christ's *death* and Christ's *merits*? Regardless, it is Christ's total work that has saved us from what we deserve. 1 John 1:9 --> "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from *all* unrighteousness."

 

[Rhamiel]

Exactly. Trying to pin purgatory on the deuterocanon is a cheep trick to get Protestants out of actually having to engage the argument.

Catholics use 2 Maccabees 12 as evidence for the practice of praying for the dead and making expiation for their sins. However, this doesn't necessary mean there is a realm called purgatory, but merely that commending the dead to God's care (through prayer) and hoping that sins they retained on earth will be loosed upon entering heaven (through prayer) is a proper funerary practice.

More often, 1 Corinthians 3:15 is used to show that there is a postmortum fire that purges sin, and I think we all agree on the canonicity of 1 Corinthians.

In any case, there is a simple logic to purging (though not necessarily "purgatory") that Protestants often miss. Catholic theology makes a distinction between the eternal and the temporal punishment for sin. Thus, if you commit a crime (say theft), Christ certainly died so that you would not go to hell for the theft, but that doesn't mean to don't go to jail in the meantime. The same is true of all sins- all sins merit damnation, but all sins also come with negative consequences in the temporal realm.

Purgatory is simply a way to deal with the temporal consequences. All sins are burnt away in that purging fire, not so that you can get to heaven on your own merits, but so that when you do get to heaven you are free not only of eternal damnation but of all the penalties and consequences that go along with sin.

Once you accept the logic that A. there is a distinction between the eternal and temporal consequences of sin, and B. that Christ's death covers the former while only his merits (and the merits of the saints, and indulgences, and masses for the dead, etc.) cover the latter, then the need for some sort of purging because rather obvious.

I don't entirely buy into the Catholic interpretation of B. I think distinction A is necessary and that B is important for all systems of law enforcement (imagine if thieves, murderers, and rapists could just say "but I'm forgiven, officer!"), but I can't buy into the logic that Christ's merits, indulgence, masses for the dead, etc., are the way to push someone along through purgatory.

I'm not sure where I end up, then- Is there purgatory? Is there an instantaneous purging upon death? Is 2 Maccabees 12 a good model for a Christian funeral?- but the issue is far more complex than throwing competing biblical canons at one another.

thank you
i never heard of 2 maccabees being used to justify belief in Purgatory
every Catholic teacher I have ever had has used the verse from First Corinthians and Revelations 21:27
and common sense

 

[Albion]

Some Christians say the 'Purgatory' does exist. Others say it doesn't. But what does the Holy Bible say? Does it even mention a 'Purgatory'? (I haven't finsihed reading the entire Holy Bible so I wouldn't know whether it ever mentions such a place or not).

No. There is no mention of anything approaching Purgatory (an idea cut straight out of the Middle Ages and not made a Catholic teaching until shortly before the Reformation began).

There are some references to fire to come, and the OT Jews are mentioned in one of the uninspired books of the Apocrypha as praying for the dead (2 Maccabees), but neither of these is what Purgatory is supposedly all about, although a couple of minor characteristics of the Purgatory theory are to be found in them. Purgatory is supposedly purifying, hence fire might be one way of doing that (assuming that the fire is not elsewhere), and prayers are offered for the dead by many Christians but that doesn't mean that they affect the souls in Purgatory or even that there is such a place except in the human imagination.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I assure you that I wasn't trying a cheap trick.


I don't see 1 Cor. 3:15 as teaching a purging of sin. It specifically says that it's our *works* that would get burned. When someone becomes a Christian s/he is justified so that God no longer sees us as sinful creatures but rather He sees us through the filter of Christ. In God's eyes, our sins have been removed from us as far as the east is from the west.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm hold to the Lutheran and Protestant doctrine of justification through and through. I'm just trying to say that it's not as simply as throwing around the canon and that the argument isn't so simple.

I don't think I've missed anything. The temporal punishment for sin occurs here in this life. Once we're dead the punishment is over and we're with Christ (2 Cor. 5:8).

Yes, and this is probably the best argument against purgatory. Temporal punishment ends at death, which definitively takes care of all temporal consequences of sin. The point I was trying to make us engage in the logic, which quite frankly means that death is the purgative- an instantaneous purgatory, no doubt, but a purging of the temporal punishment through a settling of accounts nonetheless.

I don't understand what you're trying to say in point B. Are you making a distinction between Christ's *death* and Christ's *merits*? Regardless, it is Christ's total work that has saved us from what we deserve. 1 John 1:9 --> "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from *all* unrighteousness."

I'm not making a distinction between Christ's death and merits. All Protestants and Catholics do that. The difference is that while Protestants and Catholics agree that our sins are imputed to Christ on the cross, the question is whether Christ's lifelong righteousness is imputed to us in forensic justification wherein the totality of Christ's work saves us (the Lutheran and Protestant view) or whether his lifelong righteousness accumulates, with the saints, a treasury of merits that are infused into the sinner (here or in purgatory) through penance, indulgences, and masses (the Catholic view). But whichever view you take, there's still a distinction between the putting of our sins on Christ and the putting of his righteousness on us.

And I'm very familiar with 1 John 1:9. It's the opening verse of every traditional Lutheran liturgy.

 

[Rhamiel]

No. There is no mention of anything approaching Purgatory (an idea cut straight out of the Middle Ages and not made a Catholic teaching until shortly before the Reformation began).

There are some references to fire to come, and the OT Jews are mentioned in one of the uninspired books of the Apocrypha as praying for the dead, but neither of these is what Purgatory is supposedly all about although a couple of minor aspects of the Purgatory theory are to be found in them. Purgatory is supposedly purifying, hence fire might be one way of doing that (assuming that the fire is not elsewhere), and prayers are offered for the dead by many Christians but that doesn't mean that they affect the souls in Purgatory or even that there is such a place except in the human imagination.

what do you count as "Middle Ages"?
we can find inscriptions on tombs of early Christians asking for others to pray for them, if they are in heaven why would they need prayers? and if they are in hell what help could prayers bring? this shows a belief in the early Church in an inbetween state
The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity is a book that is said to have been written around the year AD 203, now I am not sure how accurate this date is but I do not know of anyone who thinks this text is from the "Middle Ages" and this text mentions that Perpetua had a brother who had died was in a "gloomy place" and she prayed for him and after time she had a vision of him clean and happy.

I do not use this to prove that Purgatory is real
but I do use this to prove that it was not made up in the middle ages

 

[Albion]

what do you count as "Middle Ages"?

The Middle Ages are normaly considered to be the period from ca. AD500 to ca. 1500

we can find inscriptions on tombs of early Christians asking for others to pray for them, if they are in heaven why would they need prayers? and if they are in hell what help could prayers bring?

Yes, but you can't rationalize that way or put your thoughts into their minds. When I was a Roman Catholic, we were always taught that it was permissible to pray for ANYTHING, even those things that God probably could not provide us with. Naturally, people are going to pray for mercy on the souls of departed friends, regardless of the reasonableness of the request, just like praying for your team to win the game.

The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity is a book that is said to have been written around the year AD 203, now I am not sure how accurate this date is but I do not know of anyone who thinks this text is from the "Middle Ages" and this text mentions that Perpetua had a brother who had died was in a "gloomy place" and she prayed for him and after time she had a vision of him clean and happy.

I think I've answered that, but remember that praying for the dead is not Purgatory. It's an independent act, even if the idea of Purgatory adds on the idea that the living can pray for the dead (in Purgatory) and that this will lessen their time there. There is, however, nothing that connects praying for the dead to the existence of a Purgatory and, as you were saying, such prayer preceeds the Church's theologians coming up with the notion of a Purgatory.

I do not use this to prove that Purgatory is real
but I do use this to prove that it was not made up in the middle ages

I don't believe you've succeeded at that, then. What you've done is show that prayers for the dead are very ancient but nothing specific about the existence of Purgatory. Perpetua's "vision" doesn't prove very much, if you ask me. It's unprovable and not the basis of the Church's decision to identify such a place as Purgatory anyway.

And by the way, wouldn't you agree that Purgatory could exist even if prayers for the dead were NOT accepted by God or did nothing to lessen the experience of those in Purgatory (like prayers for the dead who happened to be in hell instead)?

 

[Rhamiel]

Some Christians say the 'Purgatory' does exist. Others say it doesn't. But what does the Holy Bible say? Does it even mention a 'Purgatory'? (I haven't finsihed reading the entire Holy Bible so I wouldn't know whether it ever mentions such a place or not).

hello my dear sister in christ
the book of Revelations says that no unclean thing can enter heaven
now we have been saved by Jesus Christ, but we are not yet perfect

we still struggle
we still have little vanities and vices
maybe someone has hurt us and we have trouble forgiving them?
now if we still have trouble with this in life, does that mean when we go to heaven we will still have these temptations? still have hurt feelings and bad habits?
we know we will not because the Bible says no unclean thing can enter heaven, this is in Revelations chapter 21, but we still have problems with these things untill our last breath on earth
so that means sometime between death and heaven there is an event where God takes away all of those bad things so we can be happy in heaven with Him
Catholics call this Purgatory because we like to give stuff latin names

 

[Albion]

we know we will not because the Bible says no unclean thing can enter heaven

How is it that Christ died to pay the price for our sins, but it still isn't good enough to accomplish that objective??

 

[Rhamiel]

I don't believe you've succeeded at that, then. What you've done is show that prayers for the dead are very ancient but nothing specific about the existence of Purgatory. Perpetua's "vision" doesn't prove very much, if you ask me. It's unprovable and not the basis of the Church's decision to identify such a place as Purgatory anyway.

And by the way, wouldn't you agree that Purgatory could exist even if prayers for the dead were NOT accepted by God or did nothing to lessen the experience of those in Purgatory (like prayers for the dead who happened to be in hell instead)?

why do you think her vision did not prove much?
and yes, that was not the basis of the Churchs teaching on Purgatory, the basis for that is the Bible, but it does show that prayer was used to help a soul in a "gloomy state" reach a blessed state through prayer, or atleast that this was a belief before the middle ages
as for could there be a Purgaotry where the state of the soul is not helped by prayers? yes, I believe God could have made it that way, but He did not because of His great mercy
so it is only possible in a hypothetical way, we know from the teachings of the Church that it is not like what you described

 

[Rhamiel]

How is it that Christ died to pay the price for our sins, but it still isn't good enough to accomplish that objective??

because Christ died does that mean that envy is now a good thing?

 

[Albion]

because Christ died does that mean that envy is now a good thing?

I don't know what that means.

If Christ took away the sins of the world and thereby bought salvation for us, why would we need something in addition (Purgatory)?

 

[Rhamiel]

I don't know what that means.

If Christ took away the sins of the world and thereby bought salvation for us, why would we need something in addition (Purgatory)?

two things
I do not think that Purgatory is something additional
it is Christ finishing up the work of Sanctification after we are dead, so it is not Jesus + Purgatory
Purgatory is just what we call the ending of Sanctification after we are dead

my comment about envy means, even though Christ died for us we are still not perfect yet, we have little failings and temptations, envy for example, maybe a problem with lust or gluttony or wrath or pride or greed or sloth or whatever
now we have repented of this sin, and we have asked Jesus to forgive us and we try to avoid it, but it is still a problem
it is a problem, a thorn in our side if you will, up untill we die
up untill our last breath
will we have this temptation in heaven? will we have any vices in heaven?
no ofcourse not
so, sometime between death and heaven Christ changed us and finished His work of Sanctification
Catholics call that Purgatory

 

[Albion]

why do you think her vision did not prove much?

She may or may not have had a vision. More likely she had a dream like most of us do.

and yes, that was not the basis of the Churchs teaching on Purgatory, the basis for that is the Bible

Where's that?

but it does show that prayer was used to help a soul in a "gloomy state" reach a blessed state through prayer, or atleast that this was a belief before the middle ages

It doesn't prove any such thing! Whatever you can make out of prayers for the dead, they surely are not the result of this alleged vision. And no, the church was far from contemplating Purgatory at that point in time, anyway.

as for could there be a Purgaotry where the state of the soul is not helped by prayers? yes

Then doesn't that show us that prayer for the dead and Purgatory are separate issues?

I believe God could have made it that way, but He did not because of His great mercy
so it is only possible in a hypothetical way, we know from the teachings of the Church that it is not like what you described

Is that your bottom line then?--you'll believe in Purgatory because the church you trust says to? I think that's what it amounts to and that's fine with me.

 

[Tangible]

[Purgatory] is Christ finishing up the work of Sanctification after we are dead, so it is not Jesus + Purgatory
Purgatory is just what we call the ending of Sanctification after we are dead

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)

Sounds like a fait accompli to me.

 

[SummaScriptura]

The Catholics do not restrict purgatory to verses in the "Apocrypha". They use many New Testament verses to try to justify it as well. We Orthodox use the "Apocrypha" as well (although we don't use that term - Scripture is Scripture), although we do not believe in purgatory and do not believe that any verses in those books justify that belief, just as we do not believe that any of the New Testament verses justify that belief either. Nothing in the "Apocryphal" books teaches purgatory.

Knee-V makes a good point here. It is mildly assuring to Protestants to dismiss the Purgatory doctrine by saying "its in the Apocrypha and not in the Bible." Truth is, the Purgatory doctrine is systematically developed using logical assumptions which is then supported by proof-texting from the Apocrypha but also from the New Testament.

One cannot dismiss the Purgatory doctrine by simply saying "I don't accept the Apocrypha", for one simple reason:

1. The Apocrypha does not support the Purgatory doctrine.

So, the Apocrypha is off the hook.

However, we have still not adequately responded to Catholic proof-texting from the NewTestament, and the doctrine should be refuted on another basis:

2. The New Testament does not support the Purgatory doctrine.

For me, all doctrines Protestant & Catholic & Orthodox which rely upon too many logical steps are suspect and should not be trusted from the start.

P.S. There are quite a few Protestant doctrines which do not pass this test either, most notably some which relate to soteriology which rely too heavily upon deterministic assumptions upon which a logical ediface is then deductively constructed.