Question on verse

[Michael Vichiola]

I got done reading John 5:17, where Jesus says the following (Ill include verse 16),

16; Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him. 17But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.”

John 5:16-17 (NIV)

What is he implying?

Is he saying that the Sabbath law is done and over with?

 

[ewq1938]

I got done reading John 5:17, where Jesus says the following (Ill include verse 16),

16; Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him. 17But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.”

John 5:16-17 (NIV)

What is he implying?

Is he saying that the Sabbath law is done and over with?

The Sabbath law was still valid at that time because that was during the first covenant but even at that time the Sabbath law could be broken without any guilt or sin as long as the work was Godly ie: sanctioned by God to be done on the Sabbath. God the Father and God the Son both worked on the Sabbath and that was allowed because it was holy work.

 

[klutedavid]

I got done reading John 5:17, where Jesus says the following (Ill include verse 16),

16; Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him. 17But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.”

John 5:16-17 (NIV)

What is he implying?

Is he saying that the Sabbath law is done and over with?

Jesus was working on the Sabbath day.

 

[Neogaia777]

The Sabbath law was still valid at that time because that was during the first covenant but even at that time the Sabbath law could be broken without any guilt or sin as long as the work was Godly ie: sanctioned by God to be done on the Sabbath. God the Father and God the Son both worked on the Sabbath and that was allowed because it was holy work.

I'm just curious and wishing to learn, how do you justify the not washing hands before a meal, or the apostles/disciples plucking heads of grain on the Sabbath day...?

God Bless!

 

[ewq1938]

I'm just curious and wishing to learn, how do you justify the not washing hands before a meal, or the apostles/disciples plucking heads of grain on the Sabbath day...?

God Bless!

Not sure what issue there would be about the hand washing but normally gathering anything including food was a violation of the Sabbath laws but they were disciples of Christ and since he worked on the Sabbath so could they as part of his ministry.

 

[Neogaia777]

I got done reading John 5:17, where Jesus says the following (Ill include verse 16),

16; Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him. 17But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.”

John 5:16-17 (NIV)

What is he implying?

Is he saying that the Sabbath law is done and over with?

The Sabbath law was still valid at that time because that was during the first covenant but even at that time the Sabbath law could be broken without any guilt or sin as long as the work was Godly ie: sanctioned by God to be done on the Sabbath. God the Father and God the Son both worked on the Sabbath and that was allowed because it was holy work.

This is for you both, just wondering what you think...?

Mark 2:23-28: "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Not sure what issue there would be about the hand washing but normally gathering anything including food was a violation of the Sabbath laws but they were disciples of Christ and since he worked on the Sabbath so could they as part of his ministry.

Gleaning on the Sabbath, for any reason, or in any way, etc, was forbidden on the Sabbath under OT law though, right...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

This is for you both, just wondering what you think...?

Mark 2:23-28: "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."

God Bless!

@ewq1938

Jesus seems to point them to places in the OT where exceptions to the OT law were made, etc...?

But does this mean the broke the law or laws, or not...?

If so, or else if not, why, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[klutedavid]

I got done reading John 5:17, where Jesus says the following (Ill include verse 16),

16; Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him. 17But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.”

John 5:16-17 (NIV)

What is he implying?

Is he saying that the Sabbath law is done and over with?

The reason that the Jews pursued Jesus so strongly, according to John.

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

The law prohibited working on the sabbath day, but the law did not allow for any form of work at all. Whether good deeds or bad deeds, any type of work on the Sabbath day was prohibited.

The Levite priests worked on the Sabbath day but were innocent of breaking the Sabbath.

Jesus was Lord of the sabbath and logically, Jesus was therefore was not under the sabbath law. Given the sabbath was made for man and for God.

 

[ewq1938]

Gleaning on the Sabbath, for any reason, or in any way, etc, was forbidden on the Sabbath under OT law though, right...?

God Bless!

It was forbidden except for when someone was doing God's work as Christ and his disciples were.

 

[ewq1938]

This is for you both, just wondering what you think...?

Mark 2:23-28: "And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."

God Bless!

Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.


Here Christ uses two other examples of the law being broken without any guilt to show he was justified in doing the same.

He ends with his declaration that he is Lord of the Sabbath which means he is above any of the rules of it anyways.

 

[Neogaia777]

The reason that the Jews pursued Jesus so strongly, according to John.

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

The law prohibited working on the sabbath day, but the law did not allow for any form of work at all. Whether good deeds or bad deeds, any type of work on the Sabbath day was prohibited.

The Levite priests worked on the Sabbath day but were innocent of breaking the Sabbath.

Jesus was Lord of the sabbath and logically, Jesus was therefore was not under the sabbath law. Given the sabbath was made for man and for God.

It might not just have been because of Jesus unique own special position though, because it says "Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath", etc, and could possibly mean "any and all men" possibly, etc...?

Irrespective of any kind of special position or standing as a priest, or in Jesus case Lord, etc, "maybe", etc...?

Another way of possibly putting it might be: "Sabbath was made to serve man, and not man the Sabbath", etc...?

"Maybe", etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

It was forbidden except for when someone was doing God's work as Christ and his disciples were.

So anyone doing any kind of work of God or God's work, could do whatever they wanted on any day, or any Sabbath day, etc...?

Is this a "all things are lawful for me, but not all things are beneficial for me" kind of "thing", etc...?

But does this mean they could violate any law in these cases and/or under these circumstances, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[klutedavid]

I got done reading John 5:17, where Jesus says the following (Ill include verse 16),

16; Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him. 17But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.”

John 5:16-17 (NIV)

What is he implying?

Is he saying that the Sabbath law is done and over with?

So many different opinions on whether a Gentile can practice the sabbath day.

A gentile who studies the Torah is obligated to die. They should only be involved in the study of their seven mitzvot. Similarly, a gentile who rests, even on a weekday, observing that day as a Sabbath, is obligated to die. Needless to say, he is obligated for that punishment if he creates a festival for himself. The general principle governing these matters is: They are not to be allowed to originate a new religion or create mitzvot for themselves based on their own decisions. They may either become righteous converts and accept all the mitzvot or retain their statutes without adding or detracting from them. If a gentile studies the Torah, makes a Sabbath, or creates a religious practice, a Jewish court should beat him, punish him, and inform him that he is obligated to die. However, he is not to be executed. (Hilkhot Melakhim 10.9)[3]

 

[ewq1938]

So anyone doing any kind of work of God or God's work, could do whatever they wanted on any day, or any Sabbath day, etc...?

Is this a "all things are lawful for me, but not all things are beneficial for me" kind of "thing", etc...?

I don't think so. This is a special type of thing and Christ only spoke of two examples where it was allowed so if there were more I think he'd had mentioned them. He and his disciples working on the Sabbath was the 3rd example where the law could be broken without blame or sin. Now, that was all under the first covenant and we are under the new covenant so none of this applies now.

 

[Neogaia777]

Here Christ uses two other examples of the law being broken without any guilt to show he was justified in doing the same.

I know the what, but what I am trying to understand is the "why", etc, what made those cases justified in those cases, etc, and how was that or those examples supposed to answer the Pharisees questions, etc...?

He ends with his declaration that he is Lord of the Sabbath which means he is above any of the rules of it anyways.

Does it just apply to only Him and Him only (Christ), what about the people (mainly David) in the example He (Jesus) used to try and answer their (The Pharisees) question, etc, what made him (David) an exception in that specific case, etc...?

What David did was very much clearly forbidden for him and the men with him, etc, very clearly forbidden, etc...

This is not the only quote/unquote "exceptional" case I recall in the OT either, cases where people clearly broke a/the law, but it was considered the right or good or holy thing in that particular situation and circumstance, etc...?

What makes them (all) so special, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[klutedavid]

It might not just have been because of Jesus unique own special position though, because it says "Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath", etc, and could possibly mean "any and all men" possibly, etc...?

Irrespective of any kind of special position or standing as a priest, or in Jesus case Lord, etc, "maybe", etc...?

Another way of possibly putting it might be: "Sabbath was made to serve man, and not man the Sabbath", etc...?

"Maybe", etc...?

God Bless!

What we do know is the sabbath as a national law was only given to the Jews. The Jews were bound under the old covenant to obey the book of the law. The gentiles were not legally bound to that old covenant.

Regardless of how anyone interprets the scripture, sabbath as a legal requirement. Is declared in the Old Testament as law and only for the Jews.

Exodus 31:13
But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.'

 

[ewq1938]

I know the what, but what I am trying to understand is the "why", etc, what made those cases justified in those cases, etc, and how was that or those examples supposed to answer the Pharisees questions, etc...?

I'm not sure on the priests example but for whatever reason they needed to do what they did and while it was breaking the Sabbath law, it was justified.

In David's case, if I recall correctly, he was in a war and the men needed to eat to continue fighting so they ate food that was forbidden and was a sin but because it was necessary, it was deemed ok by God.

This is not the only quote/unquote "exceptional" case I recall in the OT either, cases where people clearly broke a/the law, but it was considered the right or good or holy thing in that particular situation and circumstance, etc...?

What makes them (all) so special, etc...?

It would simply be that these people needed to accomplish something important and sometimes breaking a law while doing so happens and is allowed.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't think so. This is a special type of thing and Christ only spoke of two examples where it was allowed so if there were more I think he'd had mentioned them. He and his disciples working on the Sabbath was the 3rd example where the law could be broken without blame or sin. Now, that was all under the first covenant and we are under the new covenant so none of this applies now.

There are more, many more, cases of lying or being deceptive or shrewd, and some more others, involving other things, that I just can't remember right now about other things, etc, things that would have normally been breaking or violating the law or sin, etc, but were not or wasn't, etc...?

I'm trying to understand the the OC more right now, and why exceptions were made where the thing should have been wrong or bad or breaking the law or sin but wasn't, etc, but was actually considered very right and good and holy, etc...?

I wish to understand the nature of those exceptions for another discussion I am having in another thread about the letter of the law, and it's Spirit, or the Spirit of it/them, etc...?

How they are different might be linked to these exceptions, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[redleghunter]

I'm just curious and wishing to learn, how do you justify the not washing hands before a meal, or the apostles/disciples plucking heads of grain on the Sabbath day...?

God Bless!

Washing of hands was never in the Law. That was a tradition treated as Law.