Question on Salvation

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by ChristianPilot
Maybe I'm misinterpteing this (something I do a lot ), but does that mean that everyone is born with a knowledge of Jesus and, that if we repent, we're forgiven?

I don't believe everyone is born with a knowledge of Jesus.  What I do believe is that the proof of God is seen so clearly in creation that to deny a knowledge of His existence is futile, though some will.  I also would like to add that it is neither our knowledge of Him, nor our repentence that brings about our forgiveness.  We are forgiven solely on the work of Christ.  The knowledge that we gain from studying God's Word and the desire we have to repent of our ungodliness are the fruits of our sanctification that are being brought about because we are saved.  It is the result, never the means. 

If so, why is it that some people have such a hard time believing?

People supress the Truth in their unrighteousness for many reasons.  Have you ever done anything knowing that it was wrong when you were doing it?  Didn't you avoid people that you knew would criticize your behavior?  People, due to our fallenness, often do not want to hear the Truth because we love our unrighteousness.

It could be true though.  I've noticed, and I'm sure that more experienced people than me have as well, that there is a similarity between a lot of the religions.  Not only in the commandments and rules they put forth, but also in some of the stories they tell.

As I've said before (not sure if it was this thread) all people have an innate desire to worship.  It doesn't matter who you are, or where you live.  Many people worship their possessions, their money, their car, their spouse, their job, etc.  Many others worship false gods.  A notable theologian (I can't remember who right now) once said we are like idol factories.  Everything we encounter has the propensity to become our master.

Is it possible that we're all worshipping the same God, just with a different name?  I'm not sure.  I don't know why we couldn't do that, and I've just noticed a lot of similarities.

No.  Absolutely not.  While there is a general revelation about who God is, i.e., creation, there is a specific revelation about God as well, i.e., His Word.  The Bible is the Word of God.

God bless

 

[Bruno]

Accepting Jesus is not as simple as believing that He existed. It means being like Him.

Follow in His footsteps and you will eventually find Him. So a person that has never heard His name, but chooses to follow the good path in their heart, will be rewarded.

"God will give to each person according to what he has done.<SUP> </SUP>To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." (Romans 2:6-8)

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Bruno
Accepting Jesus is not as simple as believing that He existed. It means being like Him.

Follow in His footsteps and you will eventually find Him. So a person that has never heard His name, but chooses to follow the good path in their heart, will be rewarded.

"God will give to each person according to what he has done.<SUP> </SUP>To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." (Romans 2:6-8)

That's&nbsp;a very good point Bruno.&nbsp; However, our ability to do "good" is contingent on our ability to understand what good is.&nbsp; Our motivation is what makes our actions righteous or sinful, in the extent that they are either.

Romans 14:23
for whatever is not from faith is sin.

God bless

 

[Bruno]

If someone does evil knowingly and doesn't feel any remorse for it, they will go where they belong in the end. Why would&nbsp;they want to go to Heaven anyway where&nbsp;they can't do what&nbsp;they prefer? There is no sin in Heaven.

If a human is commiting sin unknowingly, God WILL let them know sooner, or later, but not before it's too late. If they still sin after that, they made their choice that they prefer evil over good and hell is their true home.

 

[jesusbball23]

matthew 28:18-20 Go and makes disciples of all nations, baptizing them, teaching them to obey God's word.

-Jesus taught me to go proclaim God's message, are you willing?

-There is no such thing as Original sin, just a misunderstanding of passages. There is no scripture that points out to original sin. Sure all have sinned, says we as humans are imperfect.

-Adam's sin causes physical punishment, not spiritual.

 

[ChristianPilot]

I'm still unresolved about this. I understand that humans can't just go into heaven, they have to be forgiven first. But what about those who have never had the opportunity to be forgiven?
I believe that God is a fair and just God, and that everyone will either be given the chance to go to heaven, or just go there in the end. But I'm looking for a scripture to back this up.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Originally posted by ChristianPilot
What about people who don't know about Jesus?&nbsp; Where will they reside after they die?

I would like to give you a definitive answer with documented proof... but I really cannot.

What I can say is that God is always just, He is always fair, and He is always compassionate. With that simple statement, I have to say that whatever happens, it will be just, fair and compassionate. I wish I could tell you more.

 

[new2calvin]

there is no such thing as fair...nothing is fair...i agree that God is just....and its just that he doesnt allow them into heaven....it would be just for him not to allow anyone to heaven...

 

[Bruno]

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"&nbsp; (Acts 16:30-31)

This does not simply mean to believe that He existed. You must believe that He is the Lord, therefore His teachings are infallible. So, follow in His footsteps as described in the New Testament and you will go to Heaven.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by didaskalos
I would like to give you a definitive answer with documented proof... but I really cannot.

What I can say is that God is always just, He is always fair, and He is always compassionate. With that simple statement, I have to say that whatever happens, it will be just, fair and compassionate. I wish I could tell you more.

I agree.&nbsp; The Bible does not explicitly say what will happen to the one who never had the oppurtunity to hear.&nbsp; It is fair if all go to hell but I think that however God judges those who never heard it will be just and good and most importantly right.&nbsp; God will decide these things.&nbsp; Since I do not know just like I do not know who the elect are&nbsp;I will tell all about His love.&nbsp; How can I not anyways?&nbsp;

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Originally posted by new2calvin
there is no such thing as fair...nothing is fair...i agree that God is just....and its just that he doesnt allow them into heaven....it would be just for him not to allow anyone to heaven...

If this were so bro, then where is the justice in&nbsp;having Jesus suffer for the sins of mankind? Someone in this transaction is getting cheated.

Either Jesus and the lost are both suffering for&nbsp;the same&nbsp;sin, or&nbsp;we are missing something...&nbsp;

 

[new2calvin]

I'm sorry that I didnt reveal my point completely.
Did God have to save anyone? Was he obligated in anyway to save anyone? No, God was obligated to save anyone of us, if I were god I would have sent everyone to hell. That would have been just. Adam sinned and therefore the punishment of that sin falls on us. The punishment is damnation. God could have said, "Way to go Adam, you screwed it up for everyone thanks to you, all people after will burn in hell." That would have been the fair thing to do.
We are evil and not worthy of salvation. But God decided to pour out is grace emensily on some to show his sovereignty.

God Be Praised

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Originally posted by new2calvin
I'm sorry that I didnt reveal my point completely.
Did God have to save anyone? Was he obligated in anyway to save anyone? No, God was obligated to save anyone of us, if I were god I would have sent everyone to hell. That would have been just. Adam sinned and therefore the punishment of that sin falls on us. The punishment is damnation. God could have said, "Way to go Adam, you screwed it up for everyone thanks to you, all people after will burn in hell." That would have been the fair thing to do.
We are evil and not worthy of salvation. But God decided to pour out is grace emensily on some to show his sovereignty.

God Be Praised

Thanks for the clarification brother.. but I am still missing something. I am just tired. I will try to pick this up again tomorrow.

Peace

 

[new2calvin]

Ask and I will clarify if you still don't understand.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Bruno
If a human is commiting sin unknowingly, God WILL let them know sooner, or later, but not before it's too late. If they still sin after that, they made their choice that they prefer evil over good and hell is their true home.

Have you sinned since you've been saved?&nbsp; Do you prefer evil over good?&nbsp; Is hell your true home?

I think Paul makes the point very clearly in Romans 7:

Romans 7:15-25
For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.&nbsp; If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.&nbsp; But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.&nbsp; For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.&nbsp; For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.&nbsp; Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.&nbsp; For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.&nbsp; But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.&nbsp; O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?&nbsp; I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here was a man who wrote more books of the Bible than anyone else.&nbsp; He spread the Truth of the Gospel even to the point of death.&nbsp; What did He say about his ability to do good?&nbsp; He said, "For what I will to do, that I do not practice."&nbsp; He didn't say, "For what I will to do, that I do not practice most of the time."&nbsp; I agree that striving to imitate Christ should be our greatest desire.&nbsp; However, we fail.&nbsp; I don't think that failure determines that we love evil.&nbsp; I think the point is that though we desire to do good, but cannot seem to do so, we agree that the standard by which we judge our actions is worthy of being the standard and therefore we attribute our ungodliness to the sinfulness that God has left in us and our only recourse is to praise God for His unyielding grace that made provision for our continued sinfulness.

God bless

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by ChristianPilot
How does he do that if they haven't ever heard of Jesus though?

God is does not favor one individual over another.&nbsp; He makes sure that every individual hears the message one way or another.&nbsp; The scripture says that nature itself tells of the glories of God.

One example I know of is a Japanese woman in my church.&nbsp; She was a practicing buddist.&nbsp; One night she had a dream where Jesus appeared to her and&nbsp;He explained to her Who He was.

The next day she contacted her buddist priest and he told her Jesus was only a good man.&nbsp; That did not satisfy her, since in her dream, Jesus&nbsp;had said differently.

She then proceeded to contact other churches in the area telling&nbsp;the pastors about her dream.&nbsp; Seveal pastors refused to talk&nbsp;to her, thinking she was crazy.&nbsp; Until, she called my&nbsp;Pastor.

He invited her into his office and led her to the Lord.&nbsp; Today she is one of the most vibrant&nbsp;Christians I know.&nbsp; Her excitement for Jesus is wonderful and wherever she goes she's telling others about Jesus and how&nbsp;He&nbsp;not only saved her but delivered her from many demons that had&nbsp;been tormenting her and her sons for years.

God does not&nbsp;want anyone to go to hell.&nbsp; He will make sure, one way or another that they hear and&nbsp;are able to make a concious&nbsp;choice.

&nbsp;

 

[Bruno]

Thankyou Reformationist,

You have a sharp eye. That was a pretty big goof on my part. This is what I meant to say:

If they still sin after that without repenting, they made their choice that they prefer evil over good and hell is their true home.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Bruno
If they still sin after that without repenting, they made their choice that they prefer evil over good and hell is their true home.

While I agree that repenting of our sinfulness is a godly thing to do I definitely don't think that it's the determining factor in whether we are saved.&nbsp; I think learning to respond in godliness even after we know the Truth is difficult.&nbsp; For some, due to the time that they lived as unregenerate, these sins are very hard to put off.&nbsp; It is only by the grace of God that our sanctification ever really has any fruits:

Philippians 2:12,13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

God bless

 

[TigerDBR]

Let me start this off by saying my heart sunk and has continued to sink with the responses and crazy assumations people are making and how some of the "easily convinced" are being swayed in these ways....

...this post was one of the worst....

Christian Pilot...I asked the same question. Then I prayed and meditated on God.

#1. We could never tell anyone they are going to hell, it's simply not for us to decide.

#2. To say that babies go to hell, is beyond me.&nbsp; Sins held against them?!?! Abortion-Babies don't even have much of a life to sin with! Now, is God going to somehow figure out if they WOULD have been saved...or something like that...I don't know.&nbsp; But to say they immediately go to hell for not believing in God is just something I don't see my loving Jesus doing....especially when they haven't even cried or breathed the open air...let alone pray..

#3. I know of those verses, Reformationist, saying that it's in everyone that God is real. But it's NOT in everyone that Jesus is alive.&nbsp; If you believe there is a Trinity, and it's more than an acknowledgement of God that determines salvation...then how can you honestly say every member of a third world country understands the trinity without being told of it?


My God, I had to pray to God after reading what some of you had to say, it seriously scares me. It scares me to think that you are convinced that somehow a small african boy is supposed to come up with the name Jesus but yet because he's never seen or heard of Jesus, He's going to burn in hell. What God do you worship? A Just, Honorable God? I Know I do.

Yes, I believe it's in everyones deepest desire to FIND God, that's what they are talking about, and that's how all of us come to Christ! Heck, that little african boy was born looking for God, THAT's what the bible talks of and that's what he's doing! But what is he given in his search? He's given tradition, a sun god, an Allah...but certainly not Jesus. Now I am talking about those WAY out there in left field who haven't even heard the name Jesus or the concept or the truth of it.&nbsp;

I KNOW that MY GOD is Just, full of Love, and will do everything in His power to get someone saved...but you know what? The decision is up to us.&nbsp; Someone mentioned that he WANTS YOU SAVED, he'll make sure you hear the message. That's proposterous! (Spelling?) He wants EVERYONE, of course, but the decision is ours, and obviously, our own sin got in the way (such as abortion) which prevents others from even making that decision.

I would not KNOW God if I'd assume He'd hold something against someone that they are not accountable for. I DO believe He'll pave a way for them to hear of Him, and give everyone that chance...but it's evident there are some that don't...and for them I have to believe that there is some different Measure God will take...and although I can't say their destination...I'll be darned if I say they are destined to hell.

I can't even type straight, when the holy spirit comes over me, I get shaky...this has happend in every christian "experience" in my life...so I am not just calling this the holy spirit when it's really cause of it being cold in here (which it's not).&nbsp; And right now I am shaking...

Take that as you will, Christian Pilot, but I hope at least&nbsp; my post has made some sense and being God is with me right now I hope I am speaking His truth.&nbsp; Goodnight.

 

[Andrew]

God does notÊwant anyone to go to hell.Ê He will make sure, one way or another that they hear andÊare able to make a conciousÊchoice.

Amen, my pastor was the son of a Hindu high-priest. They lived in the temple in Malaysia. Yet God showed him who he was.