Question on Salvation

[TigerDBR]

Originally posted by Quaffer
God is does not favor one individual over another.  He makes sure that every individual hears the message one way or another.  The scripture says that nature itself tells of the glories of God.

One example I know of is a Japanese woman in my church.  She was a practicing buddist.  One night she had a dream where Jesus appeared to her and He explained to her Who He was.

The next day she contacted her buddist priest and he told her Jesus was only a good man.  That did not satisfy her, since in her dream, Jesus had said differently.

She then proceeded to contact other churches in the area telling the pastors about her dream.  Seveal pastors refused to talk to her, thinking she was crazy.  Until, she called my Pastor.

He invited her into his office and led her to the Lord.  Today she is one of the most vibrant Christians I know.  Her excitement for Jesus is wonderful and wherever she goes she's telling others about Jesus and how He not only saved her but delivered her from many demons that had been tormenting her and her sons for years.

God does not want anyone to go to hell.  He will make sure, one way or another that they hear and are able to make a concious choice.

 

 

Your story is great, and I am sure after my response I will be thrown 1000 responses of the like. But it's your last line that scares me...it's that you do not know that for fact and you can tell it's not always true.

The case-in-point is babies, young children, and those in desolate locations.  Okay, so maybe some of these african's as adults were given signs of a God, Son, and Holy Spirit...but...this doesn't change the fact that there are many, even in America, that Die before they can even comprehend the ABC's...So does this mean they go to hell? They didn't make a choice simply because they couldn't. And also, there are some who don't have a "choice", they only see Choice A. Allah, or whatever...and don't have a multiple choice question before them before they die...like most of the world has a luxury of having. A choice, decision...decision decision decision...it's what God is all about. our decision...take Option B,C,and D out of an A-D multiple choice question and what do you have? Not a multiple choice question.

You receive a test but no question on it....now metaphorically speaking...you mean to tell me God is going to give you an "F" For not answering the question you never got? Or circling A when you never had a B,C, or D to fill in? (Right answer being something like C).

 

 

[Bruno]

I am with you on this one TigerDBR.

 

[Gabriel]

Tiger,

You are losing focus here on the fact that God is a just God. Justice is not always pretty. Our society has equated the word fair with good and lovely and fair is not always good and lovely. Romans: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." And since ALL have sinned what do we ALL deserve? "For the wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus." We do not earn or deserve gifts, they are freely given by those who love us. As God chose to save some and not others, we should praise Him for His mercy on those He saves. It may make you feel uncomfortable to believe that some are going to hell and there is nothing that they can do about it, but as I and others have shown through scripture, it is true. Additionally, you need to realize that God is not doing something that He is obligated to do. He chose to save some of us by His good will and pleasure alone. We were not created nor are we saved to glorify us. Man's chief purpose is to worship and glorify God. Before you freak out at me for feeling this way, read Romans chapter 9. Really read it and rather than trying to make it fit into what you believe, read it and try to see it for what it is saying. Think about it. Why does God hate Esau? Why does He love Jacob? And what is the meaning of the two vessels? These are important questions. Consider them carefully.

God is love, but He is also wrath. Do you remember King David in the Old Testament? He became full of pride and demanded that his army be counted so as to show "his" might and power. He was warned not to do so, but he did it anyway. What happened because of his pride? 40,000 of his army perished. To punish David for his pride, to teach him a lesson in humility, God killed 40,000 men. Are we to call Him unrighteous because of this? No! We are His creation, to do with what He wills. He owes us nothing and we owe Him everything.

Predestination/election may not seem fair, but considering that "all have sinned" and "the wages of sin is death", do you really want what is fair? Or shall we just praise and glorify Him? And truly understand the meaning of, "There but by the grace of God go I".

 

[TigerDBR]

Originally posted by Gabriel
Tiger,

You are losing focus here on the fact that God is a just God. Justice is not always pretty. Our society has equated the word fair with good and lovely and fair is not always good and lovely. Romans: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." And since ALL have sinned what do we ALL deserve? "For the wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus." We do not earn or deserve gifts, they are freely given by those who love us. As God chose to save some and not others, we should praise Him for His mercy on those He saves. It may make you feel uncomfortable to believe that some are going to hell and there is nothing that they can do about it, but as I and others have shown through scripture, it is true. Additionally, you need to realize that God is not doing something that He is obligated to do. He chose to save some of us by His good will and pleasure alone. We were not created nor are we saved to glorify us. Man's chief purpose is to worship and glorify God. Before you freak out at me for feeling this way, read Romans chapter 9. Really read it and rather than trying to make it fit into what you believe, read it and try to see it for what it is saying. Think about it. Why does God hate Esau? Why does He love Jacob? And what is the meaning of the two vessels? These are important questions. Consider them carefully.

God is love, but He is also wrath. Do you remember King David in the Old Testament? He became full of pride and demanded that his army be counted so as to show "his" might and power. He was warned not to do so, but he did it anyway. What happened because of his pride? 40,000 of his army perished. To punish David for his pride, to teach him a lesson in humility, God killed 40,000 men. Are we to call Him unrighteous because of this? No! We are His creation, to do with what He wills. He owes us nothing and we owe Him everything.

Predestination/election may not seem fair, but considering that "all have sinned" and "the wages of sin is death", do you really want what is fair? Or shall we just praise and glorify Him? And truly understand the meaning of, "There but by the grace of God go I".

 

That doesn't change anything.

 

Please don't accuse me of reading in hopes of it fitting what I believe, because I am the last one to do that, or let people like you sway it by bending the bible to what YOU believe...See how twisted this has become?

Thank you for your support Bruno, I also received support from other christians locally, but sadly, that doesn't make me right. And I am only going to continue saying that your point, Gabriel, is somewhat valid but misses the point that God said to be saved one must find Christ.  If one is prevented from finding Christ, whether it be because they never came out of their mother's womb (Abortion) or they never heard the name...I am just here to say I feel a heaviness on my heart telling me God has something different designed for them. God intends of a lot of things, but we tend to screw them up. Of course we all deserve hell, but He's trying to give everyone the chance to get out of that. 

But really, I can't keep up with what will come: Plenty of opposite opinions backed up by "Biblical Evidence" that surely I have read in the past.  I am basing what I feel based on my relationship to God, not culture or tradition. 

I'll leave it by saying this:

1. It would scare me to believe the God I worship is not Just, and I know what you defined as Just, but if you say one thing, as God has, saying that everyone should have the chance and will, and their salvation is based on their decision...then so be it. If someone is raped of that chance for decision...I KNOW God will work something out and not simply send them to hell. You will NEVER convince me otherwise.

2. We'll find out when we die...right? So it's not something to get worked up over, since likewise we can't tell anyone where they are headed...

3. These forums have way too many gif's, responses, and is way too cluttered for me to follow and I don't have all the time in the world here at work to pick posts apart and follow quotes...sorry.

 

[Bruno]

<B>"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;</B>(Matthew 12:31)

&nbsp;
Could this mean that the reason some people are never saved is because God knows well ahead they would eventually blashpheme against the Holy Spirit they received?
So, God only saves those who would never choose such path, therefore assuring they could not loose their salvation. If such people live in some far away, unreachable&nbsp;land (for example American Indians of the past), God will&nbsp;find a way, whatever&nbsp;it may be, to save them.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by new2calvin
i kno i will recieve much criticism for my view but i feel i must express....
all the aborted babies all the children and all the people in 3rd world countries...are in hell....
i kno ull fully disagree, but im gonna try and explain why.
for someone to be saved they must have an oportunity to come to faith through the work of the Holy Spirit, but these people dont get the oportunity, therefore; they goto hell.

Little babies that were murdered are now burning in a lake of fire, through no fault of their own?

Do you have kids?

 

[Gabriel]

Tiger,
It is interesting to me how you speak of love and tolerence and attack me by accusing me of bending the bible to what I believe. You see, I believe this way because the bible is pretty clear in this respect. I was not accusing you of anything. I'm sorry if you fing this so offensive.

You seem to think that I am jumping up and down with joy spouting that all babies go to hell. this is not the case. I have always hoped that God's grace will be extended to those that are aborted, die young or don't have the mental capacity to even hear the word on any level. This is my hope, but it is not specifically addressed in scripture, so I cannot hold it as truth. Nor would I try to convince someone of it to make myself feel better.



Bruno,
As far as God choosing us based on what He sees we will or will not do, the bible tells us otherwise. In Romans we are told, "It is not of him who wills, or him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." Elsewhere in Ephesians we are told, "It is by grace you have been saved, not of works, lest any man should boast." It is a choice He makes for His own purpose and glory, having nothing to do with us. Why? I don't know. But the bible is very clear on this.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Elsewhere in Ephesians we are told, "It is by grace you have been saved, not of works, lest any man should boast."

Of course. And that means that when God first saves us, it is all His doing. Keeping it is another story all together, as the Bible explains many other places.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Of course. And that means that when God first saves us, it is all His doing. Keeping it is another story all together, as the Bible explains many other places.

s0uljah,
You fight us on election and you insist that salvation can be lost. I'm sure you will find some way to twist the following verses, although I can't see how you continue to do so in good conscience.

25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26“But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30“I and My Father are one.”
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

 

[adam332]

New2Calvin,
maybe you want to look into what the Bible says about ignorance before you make such highly offensive claims.

1Cor. 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Rom. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

In case you never say this concept before, the Bible is EXREMELY clear on this. We are judged by what truth we KNOW, and whether we disobey. Our words and actions have nothing to do with this, but are merely may be evidence of what is in the heart. For that is what God judges. It has always been our heart, man may claim and do many things that are contrary to His heart and these things are dead works. What I know today is different than what I knew yesterday. And, I will now be judged on what is in my heart today. When truth is found, it becomes an obligation to apply, if not....what you have is rejection of truth. It is ones heart that truely testifies to any rejection to what has been divinely imparted.

Therefore, rejection of His words(His Son) or ones heart(His Spirit), is rejection of Him. Babies, retards, etc... are not guilty of rejection, they are ignorant. If there comes a time when they are mature enough to be held accountable for something, God will know it and they judged accordingly. Just as you and I are judged by our hearts. They don't have any separate standard for them, our hearts are held accountable accordingly with God divine judgment and mercy.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Little babies that were murdered are now burning in a lake of fire, through no fault of their own?

Do you have kids?

While I hope this is not the case, their is not enough said about it in the bible to draw a conclusion that i would take a stand on. I can say, however, that when you say, "through no fault of their own." You are directly contradicting the bible which says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." And "The wages of sin is death."

 

[adam332]

BTW&nbsp; I did not imply in my opening statment that you are ignorant, I am speaking of the subject of ignorance found in the Bible.

Just wanted the clarify....

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by adam332
BTW&nbsp; I did not imply in my opening statment that you are ignorant, I am speaking of the subject of ignorance found in the Bible.

Just wanted the clarify....

I think you made it pretty clear what you meant.

 

[adam332]

Gabriel,

ummm... I hate to tell ya' that passage only tells us that no one can take us away from the Father. It does not say nor imply that at anytime we have lost freedom of choice...and can't simply walk away from Him.

2Pet. 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Pro. 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Gabriel
s0uljah,
You fight us on election and you insist that salvation can be lost. I'm sure you will find some way to twist the following verses, although I can't see how you continue to do so in good conscience.

25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26“But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30“I and My Father are one.”
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Twist them? In good conscience? So I am deceiving you, if I interpret them differently than you? If you are calling me a liar just say it outright.

Anyway, Jesus is right. Nobody can SNATCH them away. That doesn't mean you can't leave of your own doing. "Snatch" is an offensive action, like "steal".

You don't snatch yourself, lol.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

You are directly contradicting the bible which says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Goodness, I don't know how I can live with myself, contradicting and twisting the Word of God.

Jesus also says:

"Let the little children come to me, for the Kingdom of Heaven is for such as these"

P.S.

Why do you interpret "all" as "all" here, but not in Peter, when Peter says "that God doesnt wish that any should perish?"

Let me guess...cause he was talking to Christians...in that case, as you know by now, you are in a catch-22

 

[adam332]

Well, evidently not Gabriel. Because if it HAD BEEN CLEAR you would have not been trying to assume my intent. Which is exactly what the posting of mine was addressing, the fact that only God can know the heart. So it is quite obvious you didn't know what I meant and it wasn't clear to you. Otherwise you wouldn't have spoken contrary to the Biblical principal which I had just emphasised.

 

[Gabriel]

You know what? You two are just to smart for me. how can i ever hope to compete with such superior knowledge of the scripture. Excuse me while I begin to assume, read out of context and let my pride and need to have control cloud biblical truth and fact.

Maybe I'll even switch denoms.

 

[adam332]

now your getting it...

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by TigerDBR
&nbsp;

Your story is great, and I am sure after my response I will be thrown 1000 responses of the like. But it's your last line that scares me...it's that you do not know that for fact and you can tell it's not always true.

The case-in-point is babies, young children, and those in desolate locations.&nbsp; Okay, so maybe some of these african's as adults were given signs of a God, Son, and Holy Spirit...but...this doesn't change the fact that there are many, even in America, that Die before they can even comprehend the ABC's...So does this mean they go to hell? They didn't make a choice simply because they couldn't. And also, there are some who don't have a "choice", they only see Choice A. Allah, or whatever...and don't have a multiple choice question before them before they die...like most of the world has a luxury of having. A choice, decision...decision decision decision...it's what God is all about. our decision...take Option B,C,and D out of an A-D multiple choice question and what do you have? Not a multiple choice question.

You receive a test but no question on it....now metaphorically speaking...you mean to tell me God is going to give you an "F" For not answering the question you never got? Or circling A when you never had a B,C, or D to fill in? (Right answer being something like C).

&nbsp;

I apologize for not making it clear that I do not believe that babies and young children are in hell.&nbsp; They have not come to a place of accountability.&nbsp; God will not hold them responsible as He does an adult.

Since we are not with each person every moment of every day and we do not know what they think, we cannot presume that they never knew.&nbsp; I personally have heard missionary stories of missionarys showing up in a place where none had ever been before, only to find the people already serving God, because He showed Himself to one of them in a dream.&nbsp; This is not an impossible thing for God to do.&nbsp; No matter where someone lives.

&nbsp;