Question on, Matt.27:52-52.

[DeaconDean]

Wow... That's... big...

Sorry 'bout that, I shrank it down.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[cubinity]

Sorry 'bout that, I shrank it down.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Good. Now it fits within my tunnel vision. hehehe.

 

[patience7]

The Matthew quote says the bodies of the dead arose. It doesn't say anything about those bodies being animated by the lives of their original owners, does it?

Yep - it doesn't say that they came back to life - it says "many of the bodies of the saints which slept arose". We know that Christ is the "firstfruits of them that slept" and "Christ, the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" is regarding the resurrection.

In verse 51, we read "and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;". Now when I think of these verses (51-53) all together I can see how the graves opened up and the bodies were expelled from their graves and the dead bodies appeared due to the earthquake. Living in Louisiana - I can see an earthquake causing such a thing to happen with the appearance of dead bodies floating in the many lakes and bayous around here.

Anyway that's just my thoughts on the subject!

 

[cubinity]

Yep - it doesn't say that they came back to life - it says "many of the bodies of the saints which slept arose". We know that Christ is the "firstfruits of them that slept" and "Christ, the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" is regarding the resurrection.

In verse 51, we read "and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;". Now when I think of these verses (51-53) all together I can see how the graves opened up and the bodies were expelled from their graves and the dead bodies appeared due to the earthquake. Living in Louisiana - I can see an earthquake causing such a thing to happen with the appearance of dead bodies floating in the many lakes and bayous around here.

Anyway that's just my thoughts on the subject!

Glad to see someone is paying attention.
What happens is that we read what the text actually says, but our brains can't really cope with the gaps, so we fill in those gaps with our own imaginings and insist that the parts we imagined are actually in the text.
This is a prime example.
The text just says that bodies rose.
Well, we try to figure out what that looks like, and somehow George Romero's zombies come to mind.
No, we tell ourselves, they couldn't have been zombies.
But, we already have the image of animated bodies, so we say they must be alive.
If they are alive, it must be because their original owners are back in them.
Thus, this must be some kind of mass resurrection or something like that.
But, as you pointed out, the text just says bodies rose up our of their graves.
As you described witnessing in Louisiana, bodies are capable of rising out of their graves without the those bodies being reanimated.
How we fill in the blanks really is based on our personal imaginations, I guess.

 

[DeaconDean]

Yep - it doesn't say that they came back to life - it says "many of the bodies of the saints which slept arose". We know that Christ is the "firstfruits of them that slept" and "Christ, the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" is regarding the resurrection.

In verse 51, we read "and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;". Now when I think of these verses (51-53) all together I can see how the graves opened up and the bodies were expelled from their graves and the dead bodies appeared due to the earthquake. Living in Louisiana - I can see an earthquake causing such a thing to happen with the appearance of dead bodies floating in the many lakes and bayous around here.

Anyway that's just my thoughts on the subject!

You forgot to read the very next verse:

"And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (vs. 53)

An earthquake may expell bodies from the grave. Katrina washed many bodies from their graves.

However:

I can see how the graves opened up and the bodies were expelled from their graves and the dead bodies appeared due to the earthquake.

"dead bodies" cannot get up, and walk around for those "dead bodies" went into the city "and appeared to many."

If an earthquake merely "expelled" them from the graves as you say, how did they go into the Holy city?

Also, notice that the Greek word here in verse 53: "εἰσῆλθον" is defined as 2 Aorest Active, 3rd person plural. Greek tenses indicate not only time of action, but more especially kind of action. And the action here, is not on the time, but the kind, they arose, and went into the city.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[cubinity]

Dead bodies can't get up and walk around, I agree with you there.
However, you seem to think these bodies got up and walked around.
I'm not seeing that in the text.
It says that these bodies (notice, not people, but just bodies) went into the city and appeared to many.
It doesn't say anything about them getting there by walking.
I looked at the Greek. It also doesn't mandate that they were walking.
It would seem audiences of the text must have just assumed that part.
Almost as if they felt comfortable just making it up.

 

[DeaconDean]

Dead bodies can't get up and walk around, I agree with you there.
However, you seem to think these bodies got up and walked around.
I'm not seeing that in the text.
It says that these bodies (notice, not people, but just bodies) went into the city and appeared to many.
It doesn't say anything about them getting there by walking.
I looked at the Greek. It also doesn't mandate that they were walking.
It would seem audiences of the text must have just assumed that part.
Almost as if they felt comfortable just making it up.

I know your not going to accept it, but:

therefore these risen saints, are said to go into it:

and appeared unto many[SIZE=+1]; of their friends and acquaintance, who had personally known them, and conversed with them in their lifetime. These saints, I apprehend, continued on earth until our Lord's ascension, and then joining the retinue of angels, went triumphantly with him to heaven, as trophies of his victory over sin, Satan, death, and the grave.[/SIZE]

John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.

You know what, you don't want to believe that they "walked" or perhaps "glided" over the ground and went into the city, fine, makes no difference to me.

I can see where this is going, and I want no part of it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[patience7]

You forgot to read the very next verse:

"And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (vs. 53)

An earthquake may expell bodies from the grave. Katrina washed many bodies from their graves.

However:

"dead bodies" cannot get up, and walk around for those "dead bodies" went into the city "and appeared to many."

If an earthquake merely "expelled" them from the graves as you say, how did they go into the Holy city?

Also, notice that the Greek word here in verse 53: "εἰσῆλθον" is defined as 2 Aorest Active, 3rd person plural. Greek tenses indicate not only time of action, but more especially kind of action. And the action here, is not on the time, but the kind, they arose, and went into the city.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I believe I did include v53 but maybe not - These verses do not say that "the dead bodies got up and walked around". They "came out" came forth and "went" (eiserchomai - to appear, make one's appearance - denotes motion or progress generally, and of any sort) and "appeared" - doesn't say how they went but they were seen by many.

There is water underneath the ground's surface everywhere. The water may be closer to the surface is some areas than others. (I know that in New Orleans, with all the surrounding water, the water is closer to the surface of the ground and a lot if not most burial sites are above ground.) I looked at an atlas and Jerusalem was a city close to various bodies of water and since I believe that Christ is the firstfruits of those that sleep - then I believe that the "dead bodies" floated (via water) into the city and many saw them.

therefore these risen saints, are said to go into it:

and appeared unto many[SIZE=+1]; of their friends and acquaintance, who had personally known them, and conversed with them in their lifetime. These saints, I apprehend, continued on earth until our Lord's ascension, and then joining the retinue of angels, went triumphantly with him to heaven, as trophies of his victory over sin, Satan, death, and the grave.[/SIZE]

That sounds like a resurrection to me and in Corinthians, regarding the "resurrection of the dead" the body "is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown a natural body, and it is raised a spiritual body". (1 Corinthians 15:42,44) As far as I know - we can't see spirit.

 

[cubinity]

I know your not going to accept it, but:



John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.

You know what, you don't want to believe that they "walked" or perhaps "glided" over the ground and went into the city, fine, makes no difference to me.

I can see where this is going, and I want no part of it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I don't get the aggression, but I forgive you for it.
I also believe they got up and walked around.
The difference between our arguments is not that we disagree on that point, but that I accept that it isn't Gospel truth that they got up and walked around.
There are gaps in the facts, and we fill them in with our imaginations to help what we do see make sense.
Okay, so you and I believe they got up and walked around, but it is important for us to know that we believe that because it helps us make sense of what we read in the Gospel, not because it actually is in there.
That's all I'm saying. Calm down.

 

[LaSpino3]

Cubinity, Your logic is not logic at all: your view of these verses appears to be blurred, and obscure. How do you think these bodies (went) into Jerusalem? Of course they were alive. To deny this is to deny Jesus being raised from the dead, and walking on the road to Emmaus, after He was raised from His sleep.

The Greek for "Went," here means to come into, to enter, as of persons. Sure they were dead, their spirit had left them, they were corpses. Now by the power of God, they were awakened, the spirit which never dies was reunited with their flesh.

So what does the word arose mean? Here is how it is used in other verses.

Matt.27:52, "The saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Compare with the Greek, and Hebrew for "arose, raise, raised, is used in the following verses.

Dan.12:2, All who are found in the book of life, "Them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (arose,) some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

John 5:21, "For as the Father raiseth up the dead. and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will." They arose.

Acts 26:8, "God should raise the dead." these will be brought back to life.
1 Cor.15:15-16. 2 Cor.1:9. Also to raise from the dead, and Mid. seq. to rise from the dead; John 12:1, "Whom He raised from the dead." John 12:9-17. Gal.1:1. 1 Thes.1:10. Mid. seq. Matt. 14:2, 27:6, 28:7. Seq. "From among," Mark 6:14-16.

So are you denying the power of God? or is it the resurrection of the dead? or is it the hope of every living Christian that will sleep (meaning to die) as these saints had in Matt.27:52-53? Are you also denying the resurrection of the dead in, 1 Then.4:16, "The dead in Christ shall rise first."

And don't give me your one line about not believing me, because personally, "I don't care if you do or don't."

Phil LaSpino

 

[cubinity]

Cubinity, Your logic is not logic at all: your view of these verses appears to be blurred, and obscure. How do you think these bodies (went) into Jerusalem? Of course they were alive. To deny this is to deny Jesus being raised from the dead, and walking on the road to Emmaus, after He was raised from His sleep.

Interesting point. It would appear you are hearing me say something I'm not saying. I am not denying that those bodies were alive. I am, however, denying that their being alive is in the text. It is not.

You ask me how I think these bodies went into the city? Just the fact that I am invited to exercise my own creativity in thinking about how they got there demonstrates my point exactly. I believe they got there the way the text says they got there: by flood, by vibration, by a heavy wind, by wagon after being piled up by graveyard managers, by climbing out of the graves with their own bloody fingertips and shuffling in on their own two feet.

Also, trying to say that anything I've said denies the resurrection of Jesus is an outlandish accusation, as I have never mentioned the resurrection of Jesus at all. I know how to compartmentalize my facts, and I haven't yet discussed the resurrection of Jesus, so I don't know from where you are getting that.

The Greek for "Went," here means to come into, to enter, as of persons. Sure they were dead, their spirit had left them, they were corpses. Now by the power of God, they were awakened, the spirit which never dies was reunited with their flesh.

Agree that the word for went refers to coming into, to enter. However, it doesn't limit its meaning to persons doing the entering, and all kinds of things besides persons entered that city all the time. No? So, as I've said before, the way we get to the meaning that involves the spirit reuniting with their flesh is purely speculation. I'm not saying its wrong. I'm not deny that it could be true. All I'm saying is that it isn't there in the text.

So what does the word arose mean? Here is how it is used in other verses.

Matt.27:52, "The saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Compare with the Greek, and Hebrew for "arose, raise, raised, is used in the following verses.

Dan.12:2, All who are found in the book of life, "Them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (arose,) some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

John 5:21, "For as the Father raiseth up the dead. and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will." They arose.

Acts 26:8, "God should raise the dead." these will be brought back to life.
1 Cor.15:15-16. 2 Cor.1:9. Also to raise from the dead, and Mid. seq. to rise from the dead; John 12:1, "Whom He raised from the dead." John 12:9-17. Gal.1:1. 1 Thes.1:10. Mid. seq. Matt. 14:2, 27:6, 28:7. Seq. "From among," Mark 6:14-16.

All very interesting. Still, though, there may be a significant difference between author A describing "a person raised from the dead," and author B describing "bodies raised from their graves." I know, it's a subtle difference. Do with it whatever your imagination wants. I respect that.

So are you denying the power of God? or is it the resurrection of the dead? or is it the hope of every living Christian that will sleep (meaning to die) as these saints had in Matt.27:52-53? Are you also denying the resurrection of the dead in, 1 Then.4:16, "The dead in Christ shall rise first."

I'm only denying one thing: the text does not say anything about those bodies being alive.

Maybe they were alive. Maybe your creative assumptions are dead on. Maybe it all went down exactly as you think it did. Great. The point, that is clear as day, is that it isn't described whether or not those bodies were alive. To say that they are is to interpret, not to read. I am not criticizing anyone for interpreting the events described. All I'm saying is that there is a difference between the interpretation and the actual text. Knowing that difference can prove helpful, in my humble opinion.

And don't give me your one line about not believing me, because personally, "I don't care if you do or don't."

Phil LaSpino

I care about my audience. Otherwise, why should I even bother talking to them. By the way, I do believe you. As I told DeaconDean, I agree with his interpretation (just as I agree with yours), but I also appreciate that it is an interpretation, and that it isn't what the text actually says.

I sure wish you cared about me. It seems kind of obtuse that you would address me without at least a little care for me. Weird. Anyway, I care about you. God bless.

 

[spiritwarrior37]

Actually, one translation does say were raised to life.
52The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [a]in death were raised [to life]; Amplified

I think that if were meant to be were shaken out of the ground, or as some have said were washed out of the ground, it would have been written as such. But the scriptures tell us when Jesus was raised, they came out with Him. It was a testimony to the power over death, hell and the grave for the saints.
Having said that, they went into the holy city, would be kinda hard to say they were carried in a wagon, or were washed there by water or even vibrated there by the quake, seeing as they only came out of the tomb after Jesus was raised. The quake had been three days earlier.

God bless

 

[cubinity]

Actually, one translation does say were raised to life.
52The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [a]in death were raised [to life]; Amplified

I think that if were meant to be were shaken out of the ground, or as some have said were washed out of the ground, it would have been written as such. But the scriptures tell us when Jesus was raised, they came out with Him. It was a testimony to the power over death, hell and the grave for the saints.
Having said that, they went into the holy city, would be kinda hard to say they were carried in a wagon, or were washed there by water or even vibrated there by the quake, seeing as they only came out of the tomb after Jesus was raised. The quake had been three days earlier.

God bless

You quote an Amplified Bible to me, with a quote that admittedly designates the key part as added, to make what point exactly?

Again, you're thinking about what the text might mean, which only further points out that the answer isn't actually in the text.

 

[Standing Up]

Mt. 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mt. 26:32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

Mt. 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Mt. 9:25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

Of course those saints' bodies arose alive, just like Jesus arose and like the maid arose alive.

 

[cubinity]

Mt. 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mt. 26:32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.

Mt. 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Mt. 9:25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

Of course those saints' bodies arose alive, just like Jesus arose and like the maid arose alive.

Of course that's the logical assumption if you have the other (unrelated) verses in mind.

However, that assumption doesn't make the text say anything other than what it says. In this case, the text does not say they were alive, no matter how obvious that may seem to you and I. It just doesn't say it.

Why is that one point so difficult to agree upon?

 

[Standing Up]

Of course that's the logical assumption if you have the other (unrelated) verses in mind.

However, that assumption doesn't make the text say anything other than what it says. In this case, the text does not say they were alive, no matter how obvious that may seem to you and I. It just doesn't say it.

Why is that one point so difficult to agree upon?

Okay, let's reverse it. Dead bodies somehow floated from outside the city, out from inside carved out rock sepulchers, into the city, and defiled everyone and everything (can't touch a dead body, ya'know) in their path.

So, what's the point of that again? The earth is spitting out dead bodies because ... Matthew writing to the Jews mentions this because ...

 

[cubinity]

Okay, let's reverse it. Dead bodies somehow floated from outside the city, out from inside carved out rock sepulchers, into the city, and defiled everyone and everything (can't touch a dead body, ya'know) in their path.

So, what's the point of that again? The earth is spitting out dead bodies because ... Matthew writing to the Jews mentions this because ...

I see. If I can follow your logic as to a reason an author might be describing events, I might come to see why it makes sense that you and I have come to the logical conclusions we have.

The problem with this attempt is that I have already admitted to not only understanding why you've made the assumptions you have, but also that I agree with those assumptions.

The point I am making, however, is that they are still assumptions. The bodies are in the text. The bodies rising from the graves is in the text. The bodies entering the city is in the text. The bodies being living, breathing people, is not in the text.

Thus, it doesn't matter to my point in the least why I think Matthew wrote it. I still feel an obligation to be honest to what he wrote.

Why is that so unreasonable?

 

[Standing Up]

I see. If I can follow your logic as to a reason an author might be describing events, I might come to see why it makes sense that you and I have come to the logical conclusions we have.

The problem with this attempt is that I have already admitted to not only understanding why you've made the assumptions you have, but also that I agree with those assumptions.

The point I am making, however, is that they are still assumptions. The bodies are in the text. The bodies rising from the graves is in the text. The bodies entering the city is in the text. The bodies being living, breathing people, is not in the text.

Thus, it doesn't matter to my point in the least why I think Matthew wrote it. I still feel an obligation to be honest to what he wrote.

Why is that so unreasonable?

Mt. 9:25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

So, you think Jesus took her hand and the maid's dead body arose, still dead, and He presented it to her parents, since after all, Matthew failed to fill in assumptions that she was alive.

v26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.

The fame of levitating a dead body. Not unreasonable at all (the wink means sarcasm)

 

[patience7]

Actually, one translation does say were raised to life.
52The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [a]in death were raised [to life]; Amplified

I think that if were meant to be were shaken out of the ground, or as some have said were washed out of the ground, it would have been written as such. But the scriptures tell us when Jesus was raised, they came out with Him. It was a testimony to the power over death, hell and the grave for the saints.

No, the scriptures in question do not tell us that "when Jesus was raised, they came out with Him".

Having said that, they went into the holy city, would be kinda hard to say they were carried in a wagon, or were washed there by water or even vibrated there by the quake, seeing as they only came out of the tomb after Jesus was raised. The quake had been three days earlier.

God bless

The quake had been three days earlier?

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain form the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake and the rocks rent; Matthew 27:50,51

There is three days in there? By the above record, he had just died.

 

[Standing Up]

No, the scriptures in question do not tell us that "when Jesus was raised, they came out with Him".


The quake had been three days earlier?

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain form the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake and the rocks rent; Matthew 27:50,51

There is three days in there? By the above record, he had just died.

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.