Question on Justification

[Dominus Fidelis]

Ref-

Are you saying "belief" is a work?

Thanks

 

[Reformationist]

Ref-

Are you saying "belief" is a work?

Thanks

My apologies. I mean that believing in God would become prerequisite condition for our regeneration.

God bless

 

[orthedoxy]

What does how old they are have to do with anything? We aren't saved because we believe. If we were then that would make salvation the product of merit found in us and make belief a work worthy of redemption.


The transmission of a sinful nature is not the only thing that was propagated to the progeny of Adam. By Adam's transgression we are all, as a creation, guilty before God. Do the orthodox teach that only a sinful nature was passed on but not the guilt for the transgression?


Because my father (I'm assuming you mean my earthly father) isn't my representative before God.

God bless

If I understand you correctly you are saying infants are going to hell because of what Adam did. Am I right? I’m not debating this issue I just want to understand you view.
I have two infants and I would have a problem with this doctrine.
Would you say it's fare that you are sent to prison because your earthly father killed a person?
Is God fare from man point of view?

Here is what Orthodox believe regarding original sin
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.10.en.original_sin_according_to_st._paul.01.htm
If you have any question you can come to The Ancient Way and ask.

 

[allieisme]

What do you mean by Christ's alien righteousness?

Thanks Paradox...

I am a bit confused now...you said that justification is not equivalent to salvation in Protestant thought. I was under the impression that they were equivalent...once I am justified by Christ's alien righteousness, I am saved.

Is that not the case?

Thanks again!

 

[Lotar]

Infants are sinfull, just as adults are. Ever read St. Augustine's The Confessions? He does a good job of showing that even infants sin. We make allowances for what is and is not acceptable behavior at different ages, but does God?

 

[II Paradox II]

What do you mean by Christ's alien righteousness?

It means that the righteousness is Christ's, not your's intrinsically. In reformational theology you are justified on account of Christ's righteousness imputed to you, a righteousness that is Christ's by nature, yet given to you for justification. This is opposed to the catholic idea which has righteousness infused into your soul, on the basis of which you are justified before God.

ken

 

[Reformationist]

If I understand you correctly you are saying infants are going to hell because of what Adam did. Am I right? I’m not debating this issue I just want to understand you view.

No, I'm saying all, to include infants, are guilty before God. Where they go depends on whether or not Christ atoned for their sins.

I have two infants and I would have a problem with this doctrine.

That is probably only one of many of my beliefs you would take issue with. I think your problem stems from your emotional attachment to your children and it causes you to value your children more than the glory of God. I can anticipate that you will ask me how it glorifies God to send infants to hell and I hope I can forestall that question by telling you that, as the Bible does not specifically speak of the eternal destination of infants who die, I can only tell you that wherever they go it is the righteous place for them to go to. I pray that you do not think I am a child hater. I have three children of my own whom I love dearly and pray for their safe delivery into the hands of God. However, I must separate my emotional baggage about the salvation of children from what the Bible actually says. The Bible actually says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and that the wages of sin are death. Therefore, from a theological perspective I am forced to acknowledge that God, if He so chose, would be completely justified in sending any and all, to include infants, to hell.

Would you say it's fare that you are sent to prison because your earthly father killed a person?

Is the judge that sentenced me there the omniscient Creator of all things created? If not then the point you are obviously trying to make is moot.

Is God fare from man point of view?

I'm not sure what you mean but I will tell you, from experience with life and the Word, that man is inherently self centered and anything that obstructs their appropriation of paradise is considered, by them, to be unfair. That doesn't mean it is unfair. It's just how we look at it.

Here is what Orthodox believe regarding original sin
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.10.en.original_sin_according_to_st._paul.01.htm
If you have any question you can come to The Ancient Way and ask.

Thanks.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Infants are sinfull, just as adults are. Ever read St. Augustine's The Confessions? He does a good job of showing that even infants sin. We make allowances for what is and is not acceptable behavior at different ages, but does God?

No. There is the absolute holiness and sinlessness of God and then there are those who deserve eternal condemnation. I think you're exactly right. Too often we ascribe fairness/unfairness based on what we think is fair or unfair rather than on the holy standard of our Creator. All sin is an abomination to the Lord, regardless of who commits it. Many will say that babies aren't held accountable for their sins because they don't know any better. The Bible never purports such a thing. That is based entirely on our view of the inherent value of the creation rather than on the magnificent mercy and glory of a holy God.

God bless

 

[orthedoxy]

It means that the righteousness is Christ's, not your's intrinsically. In reformational theology you are justified on account of Christ's righteousness imputed to you, a righteousness that is Christ's by nature, yet given to you for justification. This is opposed to the catholic idea which has righteousness infused into your soul, on the basis of which you are justified before God.

ken

Catholic view is we become holy or righteous it's not we are only declared righteous. When referring to God's word it uses words such as "cleansed" 1john1:7,9 "purged" Heb 1:3, "blotted out" Act 3:19, "washed away"Act 22:16,and "new creature"2cor 5:17.
Also Rom 2:13 the doer of the law shall be justified. so justification is ongoing like salvation(not a one time action).
Would you agree with the Catholic view that man becomes righteous not merely declared righteous?

Reformationist i don’t think infants has committed any sins deserving eternal fire. What sin has a three-month-old infant done deserving hell? What commandment have they broke ?I look at my Boy being holy, protected by God, he is pure

 

[InquisitorKind]

What sin has a three-month-old infant done deserving hell? What commandment have they broke ?I look at my Boy being holy, protected by God, he is pure

What does God's word say about infants? (Psalm 51:5) What does it say about all people, without making any exceptions, even for babies? (Romans 3:1-20) I'm surprised that a member of the most ancient and apostolic Church would look to his own judgment as ultimate instead of turning to God's.

~Matt

 

[Lotar]

Catholic view is we become holy or righteous it's not we are only declared righteous. When referring to God's word it uses words such as "cleansed" 1john1:7,9 "purged" Heb 1:3, "blotted out" Act 3:19, "washed away"Act 22:16,and "new creature"2cor 5:17.
Also Rom 2:13 the doer of the law shall be justified. so justification is ongoing like salvation(not a one time action).
Would you agree with the Catholic view that man becomes righteous not merely declared righteous?

That is taken out of context, Paul is talking about being justified by the law. If you can keep the law, you will be justified, this is true, but Christ is the only one who ever could keep the law.

Romans 2:1-29
Wherefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest. For wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself. For thou dost the same things which thou judgest.
[size=-1]For we know that the judgment of God is, according to truth, against them that do such things.
[size=-1]And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them who do such things, and dost the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
[size=-1]Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?
[size=-1]But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.
[size=-1]Who will render to every man according to his works.
[size=-1]To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
[size=-1]But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.
[size=-1]Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.
[size=-1]But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
[size=-1]For there is no respect of persons with God.
[size=-1]For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.
[size=-1]For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
[size=-1]For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
[size=-1]Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,
[size=-1]In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
[size=-1]But if thou art called a Jew and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
[size=-1]And knowest his will, and approvest the more profitable things, being instructed by the law,
[size=-1]Art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them that are in darkness,
[size=-1]An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, having the form of knowledge and of truth in the law.
[size=-1]Thou therefore that teachest another, teachest not thyself: thou that preachest that men should not steal, stealest:
[size=-1]Thou that sayest, men should not commit adultery, committest adultery: thou that abhorrest idols, committest sacrilege:
[size=-1]Thou that makest thy boast of the law, by transgression of the law dishonourest God.
[size=-1](For the name of God through you is blasphemed among the Gentiles, as it is written.)
[size=-1]Circumcision profiteth indeed, if thou keep the law; but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
[size=-1]If, then, the uncircumcised keep the justices of the law, shall not this uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
[size=-1]And shall not that which by nature is uncircumcision, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?
[size=-1]For it is not he is a Jew, who is so outwardly; nor is that circumcision which is outwardly in the flesh:
[size=-1]But he is a Jew, that is one inwardly; and the circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

But if we read on to chapter 3, and indeed, the whole theme of this book is that we cannot become justified by the law, only by faith in Jesus Christ.


[size=-1]Romans 3:27-28
Where is then thy boasting? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
[size=-1]For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.
[/size][/size]

Reformationist i don’t think infants has committed any sins deserving eternal fire. What sin has a three-month-old infant done deserving hell? What commandment have they broke ?I look at my Boy being holy, protected by God, he is pure

Perhaps when I get home I will quote to you some of the book I mentioned earlier. Think of it this way, everyone has sinned and everyone includes infants., and any sin is enough to separate us from God.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.


Even those who have not yet heard the law are responsible for it, because it is written in their conscience. (Romans 2:12-15)


You deem you child holy because you love him and do not blame him for the sins he commits. God is holy and takes offense to any sin, no matter who it is who commits it. If your child were 20 and acted as selfishly as he does now as a baby, would you not ascribe it to him as sin? Do you think God makes exceptions for age?

 

[II Paradox II]

Catholic view is we become holy or righteous it's not we are only declared righteous. When referring to God's word it uses words such as "cleansed" 1john1:7,9 "purged" Heb 1:3, "blotted out" Act 3:19, "washed away"Act 22:16,and "new creature"2cor 5:17.
Also Rom 2:13 the doer of the law shall be justified. so justification is ongoing like salvation(not a one time action).

yeah, that's what I said. Saying that grace is infused into the soul for justification is just a technical way of saying what you just said.

Would you agree with the Catholic view that man becomes righteous not merely declared righteous?

Are you asking whether I agree with the entire doctrine of justification according to western catholics? If so, then no, I don't. I do agree that God pours grace into our souls which cleanses and changes us through the word and sacrament, but I don't agree with the catholics that this can be the ground of our justification.

ken

 

[Reformationist]

I look at my Boy being holy, protected by God, he is pure

Wow. Well, I guess that's one way of looking at children.

I love my children dearly but "holy" isn't a word that comes to my mind when I see my youngest tossing food across the room or trying to rip off the dogs ears.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

yeah, that's what I said. Saying that grace is infused into the soul for justification is just a technical way of saying what you just said.

Ken, I was thinking this exact same thing when I read that. I thought I was just getting tired.

God bless

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I guess I just don't understand the mindset that thinks it is a just act to send a 3 month old baby to Hell for the "sins he commits."

If I am being "emotional" in this sentiment, perhaps others are being legalistic, ignoring the spirit of the law in favor of the letter of the law?

Ok...so maybe a three month old is evil...how about a newborn?

Is a newborn also worthy of Hell?

 

[Greeter]

You forget, God is able to see us in our entirety, including our entire life.

The babies look "innocent" to us, but only because we are limited in our perception.

DOF, these are not new concepts to you. We have all been over this in the past. Your post above doesn't look like you wish to learn anything, but rather that you wish to disrespect us and our beliefs.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that since you put your condemnation in the form of a question that you are safe under the rules.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

You forget, God is able to see us in our entirety, including our entire life.

But you said what we do in our entire life makes no difference to our salvation...so why do you keep offering this as an explanation?

PS

No condemnation, sorry that you took it that way. I am honestly looking for a logical explanation. If that offends you, I will take my questions to some other protestants with the hope of getting a satisfactory answer.

 

[Greeter]

But you said what we do in our entire life makes no difference to our salvation...so why do you keep offering this as an explanation?

Simple, to help you see that they are not as innocent as you would like to believe. If you realize that, maybe you will not find our beliefs so difficult.

PS

No condemnation, sorry that you took it that way. I am honestly looking for a logical explanation. If that offends you, I will take my questions to some other protestants with the hope of getting a satisfactory answer.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Alright, well this is turning ugly, so I will take my leave of your forum...

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All



Not to jump in at the end of the infant discussion, But I think this is most often debated for good reason. I agree with Don and how he approaches this issue for all of us that are parents this is not easy. That being said God after all is God whom am I to second guess the ultimate being.



I believe that all Infants whom die under any of the circumstances that have been discussed here are of the elect of God. I see good scriptural support of this in the Live of David.



the words of Charles Spurgeon:

"Among the gross falsehoods which have been uttered against the Calvinist Proper is the wicked calumny that we hold the damnation of little infants. A baser lie was never uttered. There may have existed somewhere in some corner of the earth, a miscreant who would dare to say that there were infants in hell, but I have never met with him, nor have I met with a man who ever saw such a person! We say with regard to infants, Scripture saith but little, and therefore, where Scripture is confessedly scant, it is for no man to determine dogmatically, but I think I speak for the entire body or certainly with exceedingly few exceptions and those unknown to me when I say we hold that all infants who die are elect of God and are therefore saved! We look to this as being the means by which Christ shall see of the travail of his soul to a great degree and we do sometimes hope that thus the multitude of the saved shall be made to exceed the multitude of the lost. Whatever views our friends may hold upon the point, they are not necessarily connected with Calvinistic doctrine! I believe that the Lord Jesus who said, ‘Of such is the kingdom of heaven,’ doth daily and constantly receive into his loving arms, those tender ones who are only shown and then snatched away to heaven.”



For His Glory Alone!



BBAS