Question from an outsider

[eldermike]

I have an idea for churches. Try it God's way for now, and when the Lord comes back make your improvement suggestions in a face to face meeting.

 

[ZiSunka]

Amen! Now, which way are you saying is God's way, that women are second-class or that women are equal?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

I think that if you insist that women have no place of leadership in the church, .

Would you do me a favor. Start reading what I write. I never said that woman have no leadership in a church. I have said all along, woman CANNOT be a PASTOR. They were NEVER appointed as head of a church.

 

[eldermike]

Women are equal but have different roles. Leadership is required for order but it's not a higher status.

Amen! Now, which way are you saying is God's way, that women are second-class or that women are equal?

 

[ZiSunka]

Women are equal but have different roles. Leadership is required for order but it's not a higher status.

But there is a Biblical basis for equality of opportunity in the church, too. There are a lot more verses that support the idea that women can be leaders (pastors) as there are verses that forbid it. Would you be interested in learning about this, or is your mind made up by what you have always heard?

 

[ZiSunka]

Would you do me a favor. Start reading what I write. I never said that woman have no leadership in a church. I have said all along, woman CANNOT be a PASTOR. They were NEVER appointed as head of a church.

I realize this is a difficult topic for most people, especially baptists. I love you anyway!

Would you be open to considering the Biblical view of the subject, or is your mind made up by the few verses that Paul has written on the subject?

 

[FreeinChrist]

I have an idea for churches. Try it God's way for now, and when the Lord comes back make your improvement suggestions in a face to face meeting.

From what I see in scripture, God's way is for all of us to be like Christ. To use our spiritual gifts He gave us. That we stand for Christ and preach the gospel - and that preaching does not have to be from a pulpit, but one on one as a witness. And as I wrote before, women are sent as missionaries to foreign fields, and are invovled in teaching - seems to be okay there.
I don't see in scripture where we are to hold back our spiritual gifts.




In the past, the verses about men and women in the church have been very abused.
"Your husband is beating you? Well, that is his right. You must need discipline." " You made your bed by marrying him and now you are stuck." "Stop irritating him then." "You shouldn't take him to court....the Bible says not to go to court. He is your head. Try not to make him mad and maybe he won't punch and kick you again."

Hopefully, the above is still not being said by Christians to women. But I am doubting it.
There have been studies done regarding women who have been sexually assaulted and raped, and whether they felt helped in their recovery by their church. The number of those that did was very small. The number that felt there was no help given was large (actually 80% or more - I edited to correct my previous posting of 60%). That saddens me.

 

[BT]

Let's not compare the office of pastor being forbidden to women with abuse physical, sexual or otherwise.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Let's not compare the office of pastor being forbidden to women with abuse physical, sexual or otherwise.

Since when is teaching retricted to pastors?
when is leadership restricted to pastors?

And my comments were appropriate in terms of how pastors and deacons and elders have responded to to women as a result of their interpretation of scripture.

scenario -
Joe College comes to Christ . He prays and turns his life over to Christ. Sometime later he hits a crisis point and seeks help. The only person available to him that day is a Christian women who has the spiritual gift of teaching and has experience discipling new Christians. Is she to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and disciple this young man, or say, "oops _ I am not supposed to teach a man, you will have to wait until a man can be located who can help."?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

I realize this is a difficult topic for most people, especially baptists. I love you anyway!

Would you be open to considering the Biblical view of the subject, or is your mind made up by the few verses that Paul has written on the subject?

It is certainly not a difficut subject for me.

If you want me to sit and watch you twist scripture to justify that God possibly ordaining women pastors I will pass on it. That would NOT be a biblical view, but a very biased, self centered and self glorifiying view.

GEL

 

[BT]

Since when is teaching retricted to pastors?
when is leadership restricted to pastors?

And my comments were appropriate in terms of how pastors and deacons and elders have responded to to women as a result of their interpretation of scripture.

scenario -
Joe College comes to Christ . He prays and turns his life over to Christ. Sometime later he hits a crisis point and seeks help. The only person available to him that day is a Christian women who has the spiritual gift of teaching and has experience discipling new Christians. Is she to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and disciple this young man, or say, "oops _ I am not supposed to teach a man, you will have to wait until a man can be located who can help."?

Like I said earlier. Your argument is with Jesus Christ, not me. I think what has happened is that you've become confused here with the two positions of church authority, Pastor and Deacon and the general sense of Christians as witnesses etc.

Your comments were not appropriate and did not speak to how pastors and deacons respond to women. Perhaps how "some" pastors and deacons have responded to women somewhere in the world. But your opinion/experience on the matter has no weight upon what the Bible teaches. If a pastor or deacon does not treat a woman within the body of Christ as equal (or God forbid, beats or rapes them) then the Lord will deal with those men. It still doesn't change the clear teaching of the Bible.

Your example of the woman on the street proves that you are arguing something other than the church office. That scenario has nothing to do with the offices of pastor and deacon within the local church.

 

[ZiSunka]

It is certainly not a difficut subject for me.

If you want me to sit and watch you twist scripture to justify that God possibly ordaining women pastors I will pass on it. That would NOT be a biblical view, but a very biased, self centered and self glorifiying view.

GEL

You are reacting like a person who is very afraid, very defensive. There is absolutely no reason for you to start calling me self centered or self gratifying. Just because someone disagrees with you and can back it up with much more scripture than your position has to back it up that you don't want to look at doesn't mean you should become abusive.

I'm really surprised at your reaction, since I have never given any indication that I want to be a pastor--I do not want to be a pastor, so I can't possibly be twisting scripture for any self-serving purpose. If you are afraid, that's fine, but don't start name calling.

 

[eldermike]

Personally the most fearful day of my life was the day I knew that God was calling me to be a pastor.
I have a problem with the idea that women in the pastorate is a barrier to be broken down, especially if based on issue or perceptions of equality within our culture. In fact, as I write this I am sure God is not calling women to the pastorate to right any cultural wrongs. The office of pastor clearly reflects the role of persons in the families within the congregation and to the community that is watching. Men should be serving God, real men love Jesus. Real men love their wives and serve them. Real men serve the congregate as an example of the role of the church and the family as a witness of God.

Do you believe that God desires strong whole families?
Do you believe that God desires strong families are to be in local churches?
Do you believe that strong families in local churches should be the witness to how God intended us to live?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

You are reacting like a person who is very afraid, very defensive. There is absolutely no reason for you to start calling me self centered or self gratifying. Just because someone disagrees with you and can back it up with much more scripture than your position has to back it up that you don't want to look at doesn't mean you should become abusive.

I'm really surprised at your reaction, since I have never given any indication that I want to be a pastor--I do not want to be a pastor, so I can't possibly be twisting scripture for any self-serving purpose. If you are afraid, that's fine, but don't start name calling.

Lamb,
I am not defensive. I am simply stating that your idea of what is biblical is self indoctrining. If I was a woman who wanted to be a leader of some church, then I would be defensive. Ok, I will admit I am defenive about one thing. When people use the bible to support what they believe instead of beliving what is says. That is what makes me defensive.

You cannot find one single scripture where God appoints a woman as HEAD or Leader of a congregation. And NO Deborha does not count because she was never appointed as a high priest or a priest. We are talking about women being pastors, not women having a part in the ministry.
I did not call you any names. I just said your view of scriptures was biased and self centered. That is far from abuse.

On a side note, what is the deal with woman playing the victim? You know, men are abused by woman daily. Children are molested by woman daily and men have been verbal abused, pyscially abused and emtionally scared by women. Its not like women are the perfect being here. I think that the bible is very clear from the beginning what our roles are as women and what the mans roles are.
GEL

 

[FreeinChrist]

Personally the most fearful day of my life was the day I knew that God was calling me to be a pastor.
I have a problem with the idea that women in the pastorate is a barrier to be broken down, especially if based on issue or perceptions of equality within our culture. In fact, as I write this I am sure God is not calling women to the pastorate to right any cultural wrongs. The office of pastor clearly reflects the role of persons in the families within the congregation and to the community that is watching. Men should be serving God, real men love Jesus. Real men love their wives and serve them. Real men serve the congregate as an example of the role of the church and the family as a witness of God.

Do you believe that God desires strong whole families?
Do you believe that God desires strong families are to be in local churches?
Do you believe that strong families in local churches should be the witness to how God intended us to live?

I wonder if you are aware that teaching is not limited to a pulpit. The OP was not just about the role of pastor.

"Men should be serving God, real men love Jesus. "
Same with women.

"Real men love their wives and serve them." Real women love their husbands and serve them.

"Real men serve the congregate as an example of the role of the church and the family as a witness of God."
So do women. In many ways.

I've already stated that all - male and female - are to be like Christ.

Now if a young man is going off in a heresy - say open thesism or something that takes away the diety of Christ, I will provide the scripture that shows those things are wrong. That is teaching. Doesn't need to be from a pulpit. Should I keep quiet and let him go off in an error?

And if I am in a seat in the sanctuary and I hear the pastor taking a nonBiblical stance or an erroneous doctrine, am I to just accept what that fellow says? Or am I later to confront his error accompanied by another Christian? What if the elders don't see it at first?
I've seen a pastor veer off from truth and initially, the elders were buying into it...until they fully understood and by then, the church got torn into two as correction occurred. Several of the women had expressed concern early on.....but were told to acccept the spiritual guidance of men and keep quiet. The elders should have listened to these Christian women before things got out of hand, as they later admitted.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Lamb,
I am not defensive. I am simply stating that your idea of what is biblical is self indoctrining. If I was a woman who wanted to be a leader of some church, then I would be defensive. Ok, I will admit I am defenive about one thing. When people use the bible to support what they believe instead of beliving what is says. That is what makes me defensive.

You cannot find one single scripture where God appoints a woman as HEAD or Leader of a congregation. And NO Deborha does not count because she was never appointed as a high priest or a priest. We are talking about women being pastors, not women having a part in the ministry.

I believe it is more than that, GEL.
Your comments in post #25 show almost a hatred toward your own gender, and I can't help but wonder what is underneath that. I don't believe it is of the Spirit.


And again, like a few others, you are trying to make this discussion all about the role of pastor and in doing so, avoiding the points that are brought up. Teaching is done in many ways.

And I note that in fact, you have not shown me where women are not to be like Christ, and where women are told they are not to use their spiritual gifts.

On a side note, what is the deal with woman playing the victim?

Like this?:
"I will be excommunicated from the women on here ....".

"Let me clarify before you shoot me Free."
YOU are playing one the victim here GEL.

You know, men are abused by woman daily. Children are molested by woman daily and men have been verbal abused, pyscially abused and emtionally scared by women. Its not like women are the perfect being here. I think that the bible is very clear from the beginning what our roles are as women and what the mans roles are.
GEL

You are going off on a strawman, GEL. No one ever said men were not abused also, nor did anyone say it was okay. My point, if you bothered to read my post without the defensiveness as a big wall, is that churches have used scripture in a way to not really provide the help that is needed by abused women. I feel that they often fail the men as well. I think it is sad that the first domestic shelters that came into being were the results of the women's movement and not from churches. I look in scripture and see Christ's heart for women as well as men......but looking at church history, I often don't see a heart for women.

I will be praying for you GEL.

 

[ZiSunka]

GEL, I wish you would read the verses that were posted instead of closing your mind. Since I have no intention of becoming a pastor, as you keep assuming I do, it can't be self-serving. The idea that women are unfit to lead a church is a distinctly English/American one, as there are probably more female pastors in Africa, Asia and South American outside the catholic church than there are male pastors. Since men have to be the breadwinners in many cultures and church pastoring isn't a paying position like is common around here, that means that the women have to do the worl of pastoring, and everyone is fine with it. Americans and English need to let go of their prejudices based on misinterpretations of a few verses and look at the whole teaching of the Bible on the subject. That's all I'm asking you to do, to be open to something that is truth everywhere in the world except the places that got their theology from England. Even English churches have admitted that they were wrong, but we here in the states have to cling to what was brought over on the Mayflower, regardless of how unBiblical it is.

Trade your cows for llamas, or at least look at the llamas! You might be surprised that there doesn't have to be any twisting of the scriptures to support the correctness of women in the pulpit.

 

[seebs]

In fact, as I write this I am sure God is not calling women to the pastorate to right any cultural wrongs.

Of course not, any more than He calls men to be pastors to right cultural wrongs. He calls people to whom He has given the gift of teaching, to teach. Some of those people have wee-wees. Some don't. But they have the gift, and should use it.

 

[ZiSunka]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to seebs again.

​

 

[GreenEyedLady]

First I want to say I am sorry for leading this thread in the wrong direction.
I thought that the OP was asking about women preachers but its not about women preaching, its about the role of women in the church.
I am sorry for that. I usually try to stick to the subject.

What about unmarried women like me. Since I don't have a husband, it's okay for me to have authority over other men as a pastor, right?

Since I have no intention of becoming a pastor, as you keep assuming I do, it can't be self-serving.

I posted a quote in the very beginning that you made. Since I have posted several scriptures to refute the question you asked in the beginning this has turned into other agruments and accusations. Can you now understand why I assumed that you might have the thought of the role of a pastor by the first post you made? I can understand your point that the world is changing and that woman are being given leadership roles in churches. That does not mean that it is a God given authority. I am sorry, I do not agree with your interpretation of scripture. IMHO, I think it is biased for your own gender.
This is not about cows and Llams, its about what God said in the very beginning about what are roles are and should be.
This has been a very intresting and hot debate. I hope that you are not upset by this debate or that I do not nor do many other baptist agree with you.

Free,
I have no problem with my gender. There is no underlining meaning to why I am not in the front line with your crusade. I am sorry for not talking about womans role in the church as far as teaching is concerned. I have been addressing Lambs post and got caught up in the moment. I think if you would look back and see your first response to my first post about women being pastors that you might think otherwise about me having a problem. I have not been upset at all by this debate.
I am not a victim. I am just a bible believing Christian woman, that is it.
I accept my husbands leadership role in the home and my pastor's leadership role in the church.
You came on here with bullets Free with your first response to me. BULL is what you said with venom in reply to my post. Why would i not say, don't shoot me? You got all mad because of what I posted.
We are both in the wrong. This thread is not about women being pastors and its not about women being abused. its about our biblical roles in the church.
As far as staw goes, there is so much straw on both ends in this thread, if I had a match it would be gone in 10 seconds.

With love to the both of you,
GEL