Question from an outsider

[FreeinChrist]

Ever read about Isabel Kuhn, a Christian woman called by God to be a missionary to China and she eventually met her future husband AFTER she went?


Here's a blurb from http://www.bjup.com/resources/bible_module_links/publish_great_things/missionary_bio_example.html:
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Synopsis: Mrs. Repp combined information from several of Isobel Kuhn’s books to form a short biography. Isobel graduates from Moody Bible Institute and goes to China. She later marries John Kuhn. James Fraser inspires a vision for working with the Lisu people. In time, John and Isobel move to Lisu country and begin work. They start several short-term Bible schools and nurture churches. John becomes superintendent of the region after the death of Fraser. WWII and the communist Chinese government provide significant challenges to the work. Isobel finally flees China into Burma and then to the USA. John joins her later. They eventually go to Thailand and work with tribal people. Isobel develops cancer and returns to the States. She writes several books before passing away.[/font]

Deborah was a judge. Priscilla, Lydia - didn't they witness and isn't witnessing a type of 'teaching'?

What I find kind of hypocritical in America is that while saying a woman cannot teach men in Sunday School, it seems to be okay for women to teach "people of color" or Asians in other countries.

 

[SumTinWong]

American Baptist Churches allow women as pastors. Not all of them, but some are women.

 

[ZiSunka]

Again, who can answer my question about unmarried women? If women ought not teach or lead because they must not be above their husbands, what about women who have no husbands--can they lead and teach?

 

[Heatherondo]

Question for you all... I was just wondering how you view the role of women in the church...leadership roles, teaching roles etc.

I'm not starting a debate...just curious

Women can have leadership roles, by themselves, like teaching sunday school etc, as long as they arent being head over men.

Couples can teach mixed sex classes together.

But a woamn can not be a spiritual leader over a man as i understand it.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

This can be an 8 page thread if you allow it.

I will be excommunicated from the women on here but the way I see it, some woman will manupulate ANYTHING to be right. Eve manupulated Adam, she was WRONG, Sarah manipulated Abraham, she was WRONG. Just becuse something does not make sense don't mean its not truth. And just because something MAKES sense doesn't mean that is truth. Woman are the weaker vessle. They do not have what it takes to be a spiritual leader. We were not made that way. God made us FOR THE MAN, not for ourselves. A woman can teach all she wants and she might even have the talent to preach a little. Just because someone has the talent to preach does not mean that God ordained them or "told" them to preach. Eve got her way, Sarah got her way and it all looked really good at the moment and made ALOT of sense, but now when we look back we see they were REALLY bad mistakes.
As I said, this thread could go on and on. Most bible believing baptist churches do not have women preachers because God never ordained women to preach.
GEL

 

[FreeinChrist]

I will be excommunicated from the women on here but the way I see it, some woman will manupulate ANYTHING to be right. Eve manupulated Adam, she was WRONG,

Bull.

Eve was deceived by the serpent (Satan) - but Adam CHOSE to disobey. He knew what God said. Adam could have said no. Abraham knew what God said, he DID talk to God. He could have said no, too.

You are making it sound as if the 'poor ignorant male' has no integrity so as to stand firm...then say the man has to be the head? How inconsistent. While claiming women are the weaker vessel (weak in all ways as you seem to present it), you present man as weaker than woman with this.


And about women being "weaker" - that is about body strength.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Again, who can answer my question about unmarried women? If women ought not teach or lead because they must not be above their husbands, what about women who have no husbands--can they lead and teach?

Corrie Ten Boom was not married and yet has spoken to large groups of people - men and women. God has used her to teach.
And Isabel Kuhn is just one missionary who left for mission work before being married. Many remained unmarried.
Research missionaries....and you will see what God has had women do.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Again, who can answer my question about unmarried women? If women ought not teach or lead because they must not be above their husbands, what about women who have no husbands--can they lead and teach?

Found this site:

http://www.gospelcom.net/lcwe/wemag/9506pioneer.html

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Bull.

Eve was deceived by the serpent (Satan) - but Adam CHOSE to disobey. He knew what God said. Adam could have said no. Abraham knew what God said, he DID talk to God. He could have said no, too.

You are making it sound as if the 'poor ignorant male' has no integrity so as to stand firm...then say the man has to be the head? How inconsistent. While claiming women are the weaker vessel (weak in all ways as you seem to present it), you present man as weaker than woman with this.


And about women being "weaker" - that is about body strength.

Let me clarify before you shoot me Free.
Yes, Adam did chose. WHY did Adam chose Eve over God? Adam was not decived!
Here is the answer.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

I would not say he was ignorant or poor at all. This is the perfect picture of Christ on the cross for US and not his Father. Christ left His Father to "cleave" to us as well. So that He would be made a living sacrifice for US.

Woman are the weaker vessle because they can easily be decieved as Eve was. Adam should have protected her and spoke for her, then they would not have been in all this mess. He neglected his leadership responsiblity by leaving her alone. Satan knows women are the weaker vessle that is why he attacked Eve and not Adam. Satan is the ultimate preditor and women are the ultimate prey!
That is all over the bible. That is why woman should not be pastors or leaders of congregations. Oh they can all they want, but its not God's will, its the will of the woman.
GEL

 

[eldermike]

Every person has a role in the church. Spiritual gifts are given to all, we are together a body, none of us are all of anything.

With that said: God, who is Spirit clearly has a gender role in scripture. We are taught to pray to God as our Heavenly Father, as we are also children of God. I don't believe for a second that any Christian has never heard a person call out to "Father God". For those that don't see a difference in the role of men and women in the church, can you explain why Jesus called God, His Father? Why would He not call Him "Head Spirit" - "Co-Spirit" - "Equal Spirit"?

Does gender matter? Sure it does. Is it a weapon, a hammer, a blunt instrument, a stone to throw? No, it's something God did intentionally, for His purposes and His reasons, for His pleasure.

If a pastor is the husband of one wife, how much more clear can this be?

People need to pray about this.

I believe that many of the struggles in our current culture are due to a less than clear understanding of the individual roles within family structure. I also believe that this cultural baggage has made it's way into the church. - Problem identified - no solution follows.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Let me clarify before you shoot me Free.

Yes, Adam did chose. WHY did Adam chose Eve over God? Adam was not decived!
Here is the answer.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

I would not say he was ignorant or poor at all. This is the perfect picture of Christ on the cross for US and not his Father. Christ left His Father to "cleave" to us as well. So that He would be made a living sacrifice for US.

Sorry, GEL but I am not buying that arguement in the least.

Christ never "left" His Father in order to cleave to us. Do you understand what the Trinity is? He became Incarnate but never, ever stopped doing the work of His Father.

God never gave the instruction for Adam to cling to his wife over obeying God Himself. The instruction in the verse above, which is a statement by Adam BTW, is about our relationships with HUMANS.

First you claim that Eve "manipulated" Adam - NOW you admit Adam chose Eve, who had been deceived by Satan, over God. You are being inconsistent.

It remains that Eve was deceived by the serpent, Satan, but Adam made the choice to disobey God. Then he didn't take responsibility and blamed Eve.
Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
As a result, God cursed the serpent and then God cursed the ground on the account of Adam:
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
But Eve was not "cursed", though punished.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

In fact, the promise of salvation was given through the "seed of the woman":

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. KJV



That verse is not about snakes and people, but about antichrist and Christ.
Christ was born of the Holy Spirit and a woman, Mary.

AND to support what I just wrote above:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Woman are the weaker vessle because they can easily be decieved as Eve was. Adam should have protected her and spoke for her, then they would not have been in all this mess. He neglected his leadership responsiblity by leaving her alone.

Again...BULL.
Women is the weaker vessel in muscle strength. NOT in intelligence, not in faith, not in commitment, not in integrity, not in loyalty.

And there is no indication that Adam wasn't around watching the whole interaction between Eve and the serpent. READ the text again.

Satan knows women are the weaker vessle that is why he attacked Eve and not Adam. Satan is the ultimate preditor and women are the ultimate prey!
That is all over the bible. That is why woman should not be pastors or leaders of congregations. Oh they can all they want, but its not God's will, its the will of the woman.
GEL

I don't know what you are listening to ....sounds like you are involved with real redneck nonthinkers, GEL. Folks who have to put down one sex in order to puff up the other, it sounds like. How sad, and how unChristlike.

All Christians, male and female, are to be like Christ. ALL, male and female have the 'mind of Christ':
1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
We all have spiritual gifts given to us that we are to use as God directs - shall one follower of Christ tell another to deny using their spiritual gift as God directs????

Frankly, I think there are women who use their womanhood as an excuse to lay back and let the men stick their necks our for their Lord.....
Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; Was that only for men?

What I see in this thread is that some limit the concept of preaching to a pastor behind a pulpit on Sunday, when preaching is any time we proclaim the gospel to another. Same with 'teaching' - but teaching is done in so many ways, and men learn from women all the time and vise- versa. When a man purposely refuses to be taught by a woman or a women holds back, the man suffers a lose of opportunity to grow and she disappoints he Lord.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Are you a feminist?

 

[ZiSunka]

some woman will manupulate ANYTHING to be right

Some men will, too. You can't point the finger at women and say that they don't know what they are doing, that they are manipulative, that they try to dominate, because every thing you name applies to men, too. I've heard male pastors lie in order to maintain power more than I have heard women do it. Both, being human, are capable of all sorts of foibiles, and neither sex is exempt or less likely to do them.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Are you a feminist?

No. I am a Christian who is a woman. One who is called to be like Christ.


AND I don't believe in abortion, I don't approve of gay marriage, if you are worrying about that.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I will clarify one thing...originally 'feminism' per se was associated with giving women the right to vote, the right to own property, the right to equal pay for the same job, and rights in education - much of which is generally accepted today. The early 'feminists' were also anti-slavery, and actively worked for the abolition of slavery. It was only after the 1960's that abortion (pro-choice) and gay and lesbian rights took over as being what "feminism" meant. So that is why I say no to being a feminist, because I am not proabortion and I believe homosexuality is a sin.
However, I am glad we have the right to vote, to own property, to go into medicine or law or business, to get equal pay for equal jobs and have opportunity in education. I am glad that if a woman is raped, the assumption isn't automatically made that 'she asked for it'. I am glad that if a husband abuses his wife, most churches don't still say, "But you must submit....you made your bed, now you must lie in it." (Yep - have seen that exact sentiment in so-called Christians) I am glad I don't live under those like the Taliban.

And I note in scripture that when Christ arose, He appeared to a woman first. And that He was friends with women (Mary and Martha) and was willingly to have Mary sit and listen, too, when talking to the disciples. and that He spared the woman at the well from stoning - forgiving where many would never forgive. And I note that Paul appreciated Lydia, and that he wrote that in Christ there is no male or female.
I note that a woman must accept Christ for herself....can't rely on the husband's salvation status for a ticket to heaven. That women are also given spiritual gifts, called to witness, called to prophesy, called to pray. That women also suffer for Christ, have been and will be martyred for Christ, and are called on to die to themselves and to live for Christ.
And in the tribulation, women,too, will have to deny the mark of the AC.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

And I note in scripture that when Christ arose, He appeared to a woman first. And that He was friends with women (Mary and Martha) and was willingly to have Mary sit and listen, too, when talking to the disciples. and that He spared the woman at the well from stoning - forgiving where many would never forgive. And I note that Paul appreciated Lydia, and that he wrote that in Christ there is no male or female.
I note that a woman must accept Christ for herself....can't rely on the husband's salvation status for a ticket to heaven. That women are also given spiritual gifts, called to witness, called to prophesy, called to pray. That women also suffer for Christ, have been and will be martyred for Christ, and are called on to die to themselves and to live for Christ.
And in the tribulation, women,too, will have to deny the mark of the AC.

I whole heartly agree with you. You state exactly how I feel. You never said Christ ever appointed women the head of a church. That is my point. We are called to witness, to prophesy, and to pray and teach, not to lead.

Christ did "leave" the Father for 3 days into Abraham's bosom. Technically the 33 years Christ was on earth he was not "home" but away from the Father also. Christ became sin which is "leaving" the father and cleaving to the church by being a sacrific for us the church.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is a whole other subject we should probally take to another thread.

The point is no where in the NT does Christ or any apostle ever appoint a woman to lead a congregation. This doesn't mean we are usless just because WE don't get to lead. We play a BIG role being that we were made for the man and we are his help meet. They couldn't lead without us!

 

[ZiSunka]

The point is no where in the NT does Christ or any apostle ever appoint a woman to lead a congregation.

Can you tell me where they specifically appointed a man to lead a specific congregation?

 

[seebs]

There is no point in the NT where Christ told a woman she could legally own property in her own name, but we generally assume that, now that our culture allows this, it's okay.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Can you tell me where they specifically appointed a man to lead a specific congregation?

The entire book of Timothy and Titus are about building churches. It talkes about men leading. I also want to point out that in the OT, men were always appointed as priests and high priests, never woman.

There is no point in the NT where Christ told a woman she could legally own property in her own name, but we generally assume that, now that our culture allows this, it's okay

There is also no place where Christ told women not to have an abortion either. That way of thinking hardly justifies that woman can lead a church.
He never said anything about using herion, smoking pot, taking a hit of acid. Many in our society think that is ok. How about this one, He never said anything about the birth control pill or the morning after pill, many think that is ok.
I could go on and on but why? Why is it to me so utterly clear? Even when I was a Roman Catholic I knew God did not want women to lead the church. Its not what I am being taught now that forumed my opinion. Its so obvious in scriptures. I just do not get it how some could read the entire bible, then tell me woman can be called to preach and lead a church.
I could sit here for the next houor pulling up scripture to prove this. I am not going to waste my time. I should not be the one trying to convince you, God should.
I think I will just put my hands up now and give up and pray.
BTW, thank you to all who have blessed me for my posts in this thread. Its an encouragement.
Carry on now, you all don't need me.
GEL

 

[ZiSunka]

The entire book of Timothy and Titus are about building churches. It talkes about men leading. I also want to point out that in the OT, men were always appointed as priests and high priests, never woman.

Ancient Rome was not freedom and equality oriented as we are. Paul, as a Roman citizen, was very culturally Roman, what with the commandment for men to keep their hair short (Roman custom, not Jewish) and likening the way we can protect ourselves from spiritual attack to Roman armor and all. Paul was very, very much indoctrinated to do things the Roman way, and in Rome, women were second class citizens, unable to hold office and even unable to vote. That's why I make a distinction between God's commands and Paul's teachings. Today, we don't think that men who have long hair are dishonoring themselves or God, but Paul teaches that they are. We don't think of women with long hair and no hat as being trampy, but Paul taught that they are. We don't think of women as uneducated people who just want to get attention, but Paul kinda teaches that they are, because he was a Roman and that's the way Roman women were.

I think that if you insist that women have no place of leadership in the church, you ought to grow your hair long, cover it with a veil at all times, and make your husband get the very short haircut of a Roman soldier. If you buy into one aspect of the culture as being God's command, then you have to buy into all of it. Paul is great on theology, but culturally, he will always be a Roman and a sadducee.