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Who said anyone will be saved by out-arguing God? No one successfully argues with God. He is just.
But that is the point. He is seen to be just because He asks an account, and all bow the knee, confess, etc. Some object, but then He sets the record straight. In other words, at His coming He brings to light the things hidden. They have no answer. He reveals the purposes of the heart. These are all things you say happen at the IJ, but they are clearly stated to happen when the Lord comes, and not before.
1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
The fact that Scripture shows some objecting does not mean anyone out argues God, or that the basis is arguing.
But it does show they are present in order to give an account and argue. Hence the parable of the talents shows them giving account. And this texts shows them objecting, but then being called out on their record of lawlessness.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
These are clearly professed followers. And they are present and object, but He points out they are workers of lawlessness and they have no answer.
Moreover, the following text clearly shows that they are present.
They stand before...that is not just a record, but them standing.
They bow
They confess
They give account.
Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God
We are not to judge because God will, and He does this in person, as we must give account, and we ultimately bow and confess that He is Lord, and that His judgment is just.
That cannot be the IJ where you don't even know your name is up.
The timing of the secrets of mankind being judged is spelled out to be at His coming.
1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
They are called to account as we see in the parable of the talents where they state what they have done.
And the other gives an account of what he didn't do and that account is shown to condemn him.
Yet Jesus presents their record when they don't even realize it. No one is judged favorably because they argue with God. Yet we do appear before God to give account.
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God
You are the one saying arguing God into or out of something. I am saying we must give account because Scripture does. But even here the timing of your text is indicated because we appear before, and there we RECEIVE. No one receives in EGW's IJ.
But we do receive when we appear before the throne of Christ who reveals the hidden things, we give an account, and we receive our reward.
Indeed, and notice how you, just like Ellen White, had to go to a different chapter to find judgment of individuals because it is not in Daniel 7.
Daniel 7 shows judgment in favor of the saints as a group against their adversaries, which are powers.
And God has been judging powers on their deeds all along. He promised judgment on Egypt and the Ammorites in Genesis, but said the Amorites had not yet filled up their full measure of wrath. He called out the nations in the prophets, listing their wicked deeds.
Pointing to books shows judgment on deeds. But the deeds described throughout Daniel 7 are those of the powers who are persecuting the saints.
Moreover, again, Ellen White says that the IJ is ONLY on the professed people of God. Certainly not all of the Babylonians were professed people of God.
Yes, the little horn--a discreet entity--was waging war against the saints--a discreet entity. It describes the actions of the little horn and shows how the saints are delivered and judgment is found in their favor, and against their adversary.
It does not discuss the deeds of the saints. And it does not show judgment of individual cases. And since the authority of the beasts is stripped by the court it is not only on the professed people of god.
Romans 14:12 i think is referring to after the millenium...not the second coming. The wicked who are dead will not have done this yet...they don't see the second coming so how can they be part of this passage?
In Dan 7 we see judgment executed on the wicked that remain at the end of time - but the Dan 7:9-10 judgment of the saints
Bob, God has known from the foundation of the world who will overcome, and already has His "saints" written in the book of life before the foundation of the world.
So this notion that he needs an IJ to know who the saints are is wrong.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
If people were raised before, as you admit, then that means God didn't require individual review before raising people.
And you have not shown where the individual records of the saints are reviewed
in Daniel 7 and admitted you cannot.
You had to go to other texts for that
All of the texts showing individual judgment, giving account, standing before the judgment seat etc. have the timing of the second coming.
If you don't want arguments that you can't take seriously, then don't claim that the saints can't be raised without a review. Because you admit they have.
I responded to your statement. God knows who to raise. And He doesn't have any question who the saints are. So my view doesn't require what you claim Daniel 7 is picturing, even while admitting that it doesn't picture it.
Good thing no official SDA document claims God is not informed.
As you know - SDAs do not believe in OSAS - once saved always saved. This means someone who claims for giveness of sins all their life - was in fact saved during some points of that life and not saved at other points. The IJ - then makes the determination in corporate judgment of Dan 7
-- as to whether they closed their probation as saved or lost. And this happens according to the rules of Rom 2.
As you can see in Dan 7 - it is the "court" that sits with the books opened for reviewing the deeds of each person. It is not God trying to figure something out - it is the court itself.
Could you reference where James White came up with the doctrine of the Sanctuary...I am not familiar with the idea that he created it? My understanding was that initially the Whites were dead set against the idea when it was put to them.Of course it doesn't. I even quoted James White who knew it before he had to come up with a reason for the delay after 1844.
Eitehr way I am not bothered by it taking a while. The Rev. 20 judgment obviously takes a while.
How can it say he wears out the saints of the most high in the middle ages if they won't even be identified, per your account, until after 1844? The saints are a group identified throughout as the saints. God knows His own and always has.
Depends on context. Jesus said "my reward is with me" in Rev 22 regarding the 2nd coming.
Heb 11 says "all these died without receiving"
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
Jesus said "the saints inherit the Earth" in Matt 5.
But in any case we always argue that "God knows" - it is not a matter of God not knowing something - it is a matter of God not "showing" something in his plan to "make a place for us" as Jesus said. God DOES show it in true Dan 7 judgment style to the entire Dan 7 courtroom - before the 2nd coming just as Dan 7 shows us.
Until you read my many posts showing that the pre-advent IJ of Dan 7 does the individual review just as Romans 2 dictates.
There is no such thing as "exclude all Bible texts on Dotrine-A just use one of them " as a funny kind of new "Exegesis" -- I think a lot of people know that on this thread.
Just as Gen 2 gives us added detail about the garden of Eden and Marriage and the Tree of knowledge and Tree of life --- info not given to us in Gen 1-- so also Romans 2 "Adds detail" to the future judgment (future to Paul's day) the pre-advent IJ of Dan 7.
Its called "exegesis" , "hermeneutics", "soteriology".
Turns out - "more than one text" is used to get a full scope understanding of any one doctrine. Not sure why you keep circling back to this as if it is a surprise in any way. What it the point of doing that?
Could you reference where James White came up with the doctrine of the Sanctuary...I am not familiar with the idea that he created it? My understanding was that initially the Whites were dead set against the idea when it was put to them.
Why is it ok for the Judgement of the wicked to take 1000 years, however, the judgement of the saved must happen instantaneously?
1. Exactly how do you make an account for the 70-week prophecy in Daniel,
and the 2300 day prophecy in Daniel? What is YOUR timeline for both! (I cannot trust anyone who won't actually state their own timeline.)
2. I also have a small additional question to ask you, have you ever watched "The Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks by Stephen Bohr"? He addresses the correct decrees given in order to obtain the 457 B.C start dates,
No they have "future" as their context but as we note in Rom 2 - the second coming is not singled out at all in many of them. In Dan 7 we see that the pre-advent judgment must complete before the 2nd coming. A detail I think you may need to skip over.
I say that the 1 Thess 4:13-18 that it is just "the dead in Christ" (out of all mankind ) that are raised - at the second coming - so that means the pre-advent IJ judgment of Dan 7 completes before that time just as Dan 7 states. And this is pretty obvious. What is more there never was a prior time in all of history where all "the dead in Christ" were raised without any review. I am guessing we both know that is true as well.
your view is kind of messy because you resort to "if God knows it - that is all that needs to be accomplished to raise the saints" - in that case God would declare the end of the world to Adam and Eve all sortted out as He wished and ended the whole thing on Earth with "trust me it all would have worked out this way if you had been allowed to watch the details".
For the "deeds done in the body - whether good or bad" 2 Cor 5:10 we need that point-by-point review of Romans 2
your many-ages-long second coming proposal with all of Earth standing around waiting their turn - is hard to take seriously.
No Bob, in fact my view is not messy. Because they all appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give account. So no one is left wondering.
Both of those have second coming timing.
And why is that Bob? You won't address the many texts that show interaction at the second coming.
And you won't even address the timing of the two texts you claim show the IJ, which we admit have individual judgment. Because their timing shows they are not pre-advent.
I did not claim he did come up with it. I am saying even James knew that God knows His own.
I don't think it does have to happen instantaneously, which was my point.
I have no issue with the Adventist view as we spelled out in the earlier thread. It is a series of sabbatical years, which I believe points to Jesus' ministry, etc. Unless someone points out some other meaning that fits better, I see no reason to think otherwise.
We are already discussing this in the other thread. I see it most likelystarting with the trampling of the little horn based on the phrasing.
I have not disputed the 457 start date for the 70 weeks.
but you have...because you did not in the other thread respond negatively to Icedragons crazy ideas about this date!
b
Des Ford for example makes the following claim in his sabbatical thesis...
Both Old and New Testament scholars amongst us frequently confess that it is scripturally impossible to prove the year-day principle, and it is well-known that Dan. 8 and 9 constitute a nest of unsolved exegetical prob- lems. For example, there is no way of demonstrating that Christ died in AD 31, and it is well known amongst scholars that there is no way of proving that the decree of 457 BC is the one referred to in Dan. 9:25. There is nothing in Ezra 7 giving permission to rebuild the city, and Ezra 6:14 and context show that the decree by Artaxerxes concerned the temple and not the city.
It seems to me that Des is intentionally misleading by avoiding other references that clearly explain both the prophecy in Daniel 9 and its start date...I don't know how one can ignore a start date for a prophecy that just coincidentally enough lines up almost perfectly with known secular dating of Jesus' time on this earth?
Ezra 7: 25And you, Ezra, according to the wisdom of your God which you possess, are to appoint magistrates and judges to judge all the people west of the Euphrates—all who know the laws of your God. And you are to teach these laws to anyone who does not know them. 26If anyone does not keep the law of your God and the law of the king, let a strict judgment be executed against him, whether death, banishment, confiscation of property, or imprisonment.
So we know that Ezra 7 is a fulfillment of the second part of the prophecy to rebuild and restore?
Daniel 9 clearly states rebuild and restore. So in order to find the correct decree, one would have to search for the culmination of both prophetic requirements,
1. the re-building of the bricks and mortar
2. the restoration of the right to self govern
So the point is, the opposing view needs to now be posted here! The reason why is because lots of statements are being made against the SDA view, however, not one of those statements includes the timeline for the opposing views...that is not a balanced way to provide information to readers of this thread...all they hear is, "the SDA method is wrong", but do not hear what the counter view actually is!
did not the priest carry the sins of the people from the outer court into the tabernacle, through the Hoy Place and then through the veil then into the Most Holy Place?
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