Question for Christians

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Do you believe God's love is unconditional?

If so, how do you understand that idea?

The idea of unconditional is that it is lacking conditions. So God loves you. Period. There can be no "if, then" statements following that.

But I feel like, according to Christian theology, there is a blatant "if, then" statement which says, "If you don't accept Jesus Christ, then you will be sent into Hell". And, while this "if,then" statement is not directly linked to God's love, it seems awfully hard to reconcile God's "unconditional" love with regard to this basic Christian tenet.

Is the idea of God's unconditional love a false attribute of God which isn't supported Biblically? What are the implications of God having a conditional love?

 

[drich0150]

Do you believe God's love is unconditional?

If so, how do you understand that idea?

The idea of unconditional is that it is lacking conditions. So God loves you. Period. There can be no "if, then" statements following that.

But I feel like, according to Christian theology, there is a blatant "if, then" statement which says, "If you don't accept Jesus Christ, then you will be sent into Hell". And, while this "if,then" statement is not directly linked to God's love, it seems awfully hard to reconcile God's "unconditional" love with regard to this basic Christian tenet.

Is the idea of God's unconditional love a false attribute of God which isn't supported Biblically? What are the implications of God having a conditional love?

God's love is endless. The bible does not say it is unconditional. God does not love everyone. If you get a chance ask Jacob's brother Esau what God thought of him.

What are the implications? They are the same as they have always been.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Do you believe God's love is unconditional?

If so, how do you understand that idea?

The idea of unconditional is that it is lacking conditions. So God loves you. Period. There can be no "if, then" statements following that.

But I feel like, according to Christian theology, there is a blatant "if, then" statement which says, "If you don't accept Jesus Christ, then you will be sent into Hell". And, while this "if,then" statement is not directly linked to God's love, it seems awfully hard to reconcile God's "unconditional" love with regard to this basic Christian tenet.

Is the idea of God's unconditional love a false attribute of God which isn't supported Biblically? What are the implications of God having a conditional love?

MY FRIEND,

God's Love is indeed unconditional--He loves Osama bin Laden exactly as He loves Mother Theresa. What God hates is sin--not the sinner.

No one is "sent" to Hell--those who end up in that sad situation freely choose this option. Hell is the absence of God, and those who either deny God's very existence or refuse to turn to Him that He may heal them and become a Father to them, will experience the consequence of their choices for all eternity--not because God desires it so--"GOD IS NO WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD ACQUIRE ETERNAL LIFE"--but because they have chosen it so by their spurning of God's Love here on earth. God's gift of Free Will grants us freedom to act as we choose, but it also mandates that we must accept the consequences of our choices.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[elopez]

Do you believe God's love is unconditional?

With love meaning agape and unconditional meaning no requirement of action's to be accepted first, then yes, God shows love even to sinners.

If so, how do you understand that idea?

The idea of unconditional is that it is lacking conditions. So God loves you. Period. There can be no "if, then" statements following that.

I understand God's love as agape. That's right, there can be no conditions with an unconditional love. What God's love consists of though is the question. What do you think it would mean for God to express affection or some display of love? In 1 Corinthians 13 it describes agape as long suffering, meaning that God is patient with man's sin in a chance for man to come to repentance. God is patient with everybody and it's not like man would need to not sin in order for God to be patient towards them, and so as God expressing patience with us and this patience an aspect of agape, God therefore expresses love unconditionally and universally.

But I feel like, according to Christian theology, there is a blatant "if, then" statement which says, "If you don't accept Jesus Christ, then you will be sent into Hell". And, while this "if,then" statement is not directly linked to God's love, it seems awfully hard to reconcile God's "unconditional" love with regard to this basic Christian tenet.

I think your problem is solved there. God can express love to those who do not come to Christ, as shown above.

Is the idea of God's unconditional love a false attribute of God which isn't supported Biblically? What are the implications of God having a conditional love?

Well, I think God's love as agape is Biblical and that entails it is an unconditional love, though the Bible does not say explicitly that God has unconditional love.

 

[Tim Myers]

"Do you believe God's love is unconditional?"

No........

 

[NNSV]

Do you believe God's love is unconditional?

If so, how do you understand that idea?

The idea of unconditional is that it is lacking conditions. So God loves you. Period. There can be no "if, then" statements following that.

But I feel like, according to Christian theology, there is a blatant "if, then" statement which says, "If you don't accept Jesus Christ, then you will be sent into Hell". And, while this "if,then" statement is not directly linked to God's love, it seems awfully hard to reconcile God's "unconditional" love with regard to this basic Christian tenet.

Is the idea of God's unconditional love a false attribute of God which isn't supported Biblically? What are the implications of God having a conditional love?

I think He has unconditional love for everyone save a few people/entities He explicitly names/tells. This is most likely because He spiritually knew them before they became human, and they weren't anything near good then. Think of all the things we take for granted, as if a god should give these things freely:

Sun
Moon
Stars
Gravity
Rain
Water
Earth (Terra Firma)
Heat
Cold
Fruit, Herbs & Grain that grow themselves
Animals
etc.


A god is perfect in power, but that doesn't mean s/he has to use his or her power for good, or love. A good god provides for whomever s/he rules over. A loving god provides for whomever s/he rules over no matter what they do. God is a perfectly good, perfectly loving God. He could actually still be perfectly good, just and loving, and destroy the whole earth (pre-Christ,) and it would be perfectly legal under His Universal Law. You know why I say that (because of our sin.) But, He still loved His creation enough to let everything naturally play out (good, bad, ugliness, etc.,) and provided a way to redeem His creation so that they could still live with Him despite their shortcomings.

This is a serious act for a god: gods don't owe their creation anything! But, here is the King of all Gods extending His hand to provide a way for us to have the most thorough and long life possible. All He wants in return is love (in the form of love, obedience, etc.)


It isn't about God sending people anywhere. Think about it: most people do NOT want to be god-like. They do not want to be obedient (especially sexual obedience.) They don't want to worship like the bible says. A lot of people have their own sense of self-enlightenment, and feel like they don't need God even if He exists. Other people participate in occult, witchcraft, astrology, or some other form of divination apart from God.

And, some just down right don't like God. This has to do with the many wolves in sheep's clothing (pretending to be spiritual educators) telling people polarized misinformation like "You are going to burn in hell for..." or "You can lose your salvation IF..."

These statements have cause a lot of potential believers to fall away before they even understand what God is about. But, God doesn't send anyone to hell. It is a consequence of how we live our lives, just like if you put your hand on a hot stove you get burned. If you keep putting your hand on the stove, then obviously you want your hand to burn. Likewise with unrepentant sin, blasphemy, and unbelief. Unrepentant sin will send you to hell; repented sin will invoke reproof and mercy from God. Salvation is always there if you believe in Christ's sacrifice and [strive to] walk in His footsteps with all of your heart. The last part is important because God wants the exact same love He is giving you - He loves with all of His heart. You cannot just say you believe, then ignore every statute Christ recognized (i.e. the "old testament" matters in obedience.) He gave those laws for our well-being and maintenance. For example, circumcising a baby after 8 days is the best thing to do to an infant, because (now science has shown) after eight days the baby has the highest coagulation level. It isn't like the laws are random.

To me, the word of God - the actual ink and paper - is actually the thing that makes me believe God unconditionally loving. He has also spared me from some things I personally know I deserved, and He gave me many gifts, and the ability to fine-tune them. I have seen Him work for other people similarly. I see how He is merciful and patient with even evil people, letting them fully evolve and live out their lives, because He wants them to repent and come to Him. These are things that give me knowledge of His unconditional love.

 

[mulimulix]

I would just like to point these three verses to everyone:

Mark 3:28-30 “Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven all their sins and all the blasphemies they utter. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they [the Pharisees] were saying, ‘He has an evil spirit’.”

 

[elman]

Do you believe God's love is unconditional?

If so, how do you understand that idea?

The idea of unconditional is that it is lacking conditions. So God loves you. Period. There can be no "if, then" statements following that.

But I feel like, according to Christian theology, there is a blatant "if, then" statement which says, "If you don't accept Jesus Christ, then you will be sent into Hell". And, while this "if,then" statement is not directly linked to God's love, it seems awfully hard to reconcile God's "unconditional" love with regard to this basic Christian tenet.

Is the idea of God's unconditional love a false attribute of God which isn't supported Biblically? What are the implications of God having a conditional love?

I think God's love is available to all human beings. Eternal life however is not given to all human beings--the wages of sin is death.

 

[aiki]

Do you believe God's love is unconditional?

God loves us because it is in His nature to love:

1 John 4:16
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love...

1 John 4:9-10
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

It is also in His nature to punish the wicked:

Isaiah 13:11
11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Romans 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Romans 2:5-9
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

If so, how do you understand that idea?

The idea of unconditional is that it is lacking conditions. So God loves you. Period. There can be no "if, then" statements following that.

Yup.

But I feel like, according to Christian theology, there is a blatant "if, then" statement which says, "If you don't accept Jesus Christ, then you will be sent into Hell". And, while this "if,then" statement is not directly linked to God's love, it seems awfully hard to reconcile God's "unconditional" love with regard to this basic Christian tenet.

Yes, it is hard to do so, isn't it? Which is why so many "Christians" deny the doctrine of hell and the wrath of God so clearly taught in Scripture. They want a tolerant God who makes no demands upon them. A God who will wink at their sinful "foibles" and accept them no matter what they do. The biblical reality, though, is that while God loves us because it is in His nature to do so, His love does not negate His justice nor His holiness, both of which demand the judgment and punishment of wickedness. Therefore, God commands us:

1 Peter 1:15-16
15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

Is the idea of God's unconditional love a false attribute of God which isn't supported Biblically? What are the implications of God having a conditional love?

See above.

Selah.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

Do you believe God's love is unconditional?

If so, how do you understand that idea?

The idea of unconditional is that it is lacking conditions. So God loves you. Period. There can be no "if, then" statements following that.

But I feel like, according to Christian theology, there is a blatant "if, then" statement which says, "If you don't accept Jesus Christ, then you will be sent into Hell". And, while this "if,then" statement is not directly linked to God's love, it seems awfully hard to reconcile God's "unconditional" love with regard to this basic Christian tenet.

Is the idea of God's unconditional love a false attribute of God which isn't supported Biblically? What are the implications of God having a conditional love?

Great questions. I don't necessarily know the answer - it's a "chicken and egg" question. Do I love God because he first loved me and drew me to himself? Or does God love me because I drew near to him and believed?

I lean towards the first option. The Bible has some interesting things to say on this:

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion (Exodus 33:19)

As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Romans 9:13)

Romans chapter 9 is a commentary on the sovereignty of God and His right to choose those he will chose.

 

[Sketcher]

Some people he does love unconditionally - they certainly fell well short of earning it. Other people, I'm not so sure about.

 

[bling]

I think we have been through this before:


God’s Love is unconditional!!!

The problem is: God will not force His Love on humans (like some shoot gun wedding with God holding the shoot gun) since that would not be “loving” on God’s part and the Love we received would not be Godly type Love.

The reason we do not “accept” God’s Love is because it is unconditional, undeserving and free, so that makes it pure “charity” on God’s part and humans do not like to take charity from a giver that made a sacrifice to give the gift.

 

[aiki]

God's love is not unconditional - at least not in the sense that He is all embracing of everyone no matter what they do. God extends His love to all of mankind, but the full experience of His love is reserved only for those who submit, confess, and repent of their sins and place themselves under the Lordship of Christ. Upon all others, the Bible says, the wrath of God abides. (Jn. 3:36)

Anyone who thinks they can become God's child without surrendering their life to Him does not understand the message of the Gospel. Salvation is an exchange more than it is the simple acceptance of a gift. God gives us His pure, joyful, abundant life in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in exchange we give Him our selfish, willful, sin-soiled life. And what does God do with us when we surrender ourselves to Him? He puts us to death - the death of the cross. (Ro. 6:7) The apostle Paul is not speaking esoteric nonsense when he writes,

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

The life we yield to God is corrupted by sin and at war with Him and is therefore totally useless to Him. (Ro. 8:7, 8) The only thing to be done with it is to put it to death, bury it, and then "raise us up in newness of life" in Christ. (Ro. 6:4)

Too many Christians think salvation is an add-on, an accessory to life, "fire insurance", a "positive dimension to living." God says to us, however, that salvation necessarily entails putting Him at the center of our life, as its hub, its anchor, its directing core, which means removing and replacing what is already at the core of our life: Our Self. As a new creature in Christ, God orders our choices, our goals, and our desires, which means "dying daily" to the agenda Self urges upon us. Such a life is far removed from the one that thinks to make God just another pleasing asset.

Is it any wonder, then, that the first step God calls us to make toward Him is one of repentance? Such a step means acknowledging that we are wicked and corrupt just as God says we are. It requires being humble enough to agree with God that we are sinners in desperate need of a Saviour. This is why it has been said that all who enter the "narrow gate" to life eternal do so on their knees as a humble supplicant and recipient of God's grace.

God's love, then, is, in a very real sense, conditional. We experience it in its fullness only when we humbly acknowledge our sinful state, our desperate need of our Maker's undeserved mercy and grace, accept by faith Christ's perfect sacrifice for us on the cross, and yield our self-rule to God's rule. Warm fuzzies and a quick prayer asking Jesus to come into your heart so you won't go to hell is not enough. God offers you what you could never have obtained on your own - salvation. All He asks is that you give Him all that you are in return.

Selah.

 

[solarwave]

Do you believe God's love is unconditional?

For me Gods unconditional and unlimited love is the biggest conception of God and I'm not sure I could believe in a God without it. I probably could really but it would pale in comparison to the God of loving goodness found in Jesus.

If so, how do you understand that idea?

God loves all people and will act that out as far as free will and logic allows.

But I feel like, according to Christian theology, there is a blatant "if, then" statement which says, "If you don't accept Jesus Christ, then you will be sent into Hell". And, while this "if,then" statement is not directly linked to God's love, it seems awfully hard to reconcile God's "unconditional" love with regard to this basic Christian tenet.

What you believe hell is probably plays a part here. I assume you know the story of the parable of the Prodigal Son. The father in the story could be imagined to have unconditional love for his son while also say "If you turn away and go off on your own you will end up in pig poo". This doesn't mean the father is saying he will punish the son by throwing him in pig poo, it is just the natural conclusion of living a certain way. Even in Hell (whatever that is) God loves the sinner and would accept whoever wishes to come back to Him with open arms.

All in my opinion of course.

 

[elman]

For me Gods unconditional and unlimited love is the biggest conception of God and I'm not sure I could believe in a God without it. I probably could really but it would pale in comparison to the God of loving goodness found in Jesus.



God loves all people and will act that out as far as free will and logic allows.



What you believe hell is probably plays a part here. I assume you know the story of the parable of the Prodigal Son. The father in the story could be imagined to have unconditional love for his son while also say "If you turn away and go off on your own you will end up in pig poo". This doesn't mean the father is saying he will punish the son by throwing him in pig poo, it is just the natural conclusion of living a certain way. Even in Hell (whatever that is) God loves the sinner and would accept whoever wishes to come back to Him with open arms.

All in my opinion of course.

My opinion also. Well said.

 

[bling]

God's love is not unconditional - at least not in the sense that He is all embracing of everyone no matter what they do. God extends His love to all of mankind, but the full experience of His love is reserved only for those who submit, confess, and repent of their sins and place themselves under the Lordship of Christ. Upon all others, the Bible says, the wrath of God abides. (Jn. 3:36)

Anyone who thinks they can become God's child without surrendering their life to Him does not understand the message of the Gospel. Salvation is an exchange more than it is the simple acceptance of a gift. God gives us His pure, joyful, abundant life in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in exchange we give Him our selfish, willful, sin-soiled life. And what does God do with us when we surrender ourselves to Him? He puts us to death - the death of the cross. (Ro. 6:7) The apostle Paul is not speaking esoteric nonsense when he writes,

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

The life we yield to God is corrupted by sin and at war with Him and is therefore totally useless to Him. (Ro. 8:7, 8) The only thing to be done with it is to put it to death, bury it, and then "raise us up in newness of life" in Christ. (Ro. 6:4)

Too many Christians think salvation is an add-on, an accessory to life, "fire insurance", a "positive dimension to living." God says to us, however, that salvation necessarily entails putting Him at the center of our life, as its hub, its anchor, its directing core, which means removing and replacing what is already at the core of our life: Our Self. As a new creature in Christ, God orders our choices, our goals, and our desires, which means "dying daily" to the agenda Self urges upon us. Such a life is far removed from the one that thinks to make God just another pleasing asset.

Is it any wonder, then, that the first step God calls us to make toward Him is one of repentance? Such a step means acknowledging that we are wicked and corrupt just as God says we are. It requires being humble enough to agree with God that we are sinners in desperate need of a Saviour. This is why it has been said that all who enter the "narrow gate" to life eternal do so on their knees as a humble supplicant and recipient of God's grace.

God's love, then, is, in a very real sense, conditional. We experience it in its fullness only when we humbly acknowledge our sinful state, our desperate need of our Maker's undeserved mercy and grace, accept by faith Christ's perfect sacrifice for us on the cross, and yield our self-rule to God's rule. Warm fuzzies and a quick prayer asking Jesus to come into your heart so you won't go to hell is not enough. God offers you what you could never have obtained on your own - salvation. All He asks is that you give Him all that you are in return.

Selah.

God’s Love is unconditional!!!


The problem is: God will not force His Love on humans (like some shoot gun wedding with God holding the shoot gun) since that would not be “loving” on God’s part and the Love we received would not be Godly type Love.


The reason we do not “accept” God’s Love is because it is unconditional, undeserving and free, so that makes it pure “charity” on God’s part and humans do not like to take charity from a giver that made a sacrifice to give the gift.

 

[aiki]

God’s Love is unconditional!!!

I know you think so, but as I explained in my post, I don't quite agree. I've made my case from Scripture. Can you please show how I've mishandled the verses that I offered in support of my assertions?

The problem is: God will not force His Love on humans (like some shoot gun wedding with God holding the shoot gun) since that would not be “loving” on God’s part and the Love we received would not be Godly type Love.

Well, then God's love is conditional upon our acceptance of it, isn't it? This was, in a way, much the same thing as I was saying.

The reason we do not “accept” God’s Love is because it is unconditional, undeserving and free, so that makes it pure “charity” on God’s part and humans do not like to take charity from a giver that made a sacrifice to give the gift.

This seems to be a roundabout way of saying that we are too proud to accept God's gift of salvation. I agree. Receiving God's love is, as I explained in my last post, conditional upon our being humble enough to admit we need it and can do nothing to deserve it. The apostle John also indicates that our pride makes us unwilling to admit we are sinful. (Jn. 3:19), which further prevents us from accessing God's love. Until we confess and repent of our sin, God's love remains untapped, separated from us by the great gulf of our sin.

Isaiah 59:2
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

Acts 3:19
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...

James 4:8-10
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

Seems pretty clear to me from these verses that God does put conditions upon our being able to experience His love.

And what do you do with the following verses that speak of God's terrible wrath? It isn't that God simply lets people go their own way into hell but that He vents His wrath upon wicked, unrepentant people by punishing them with eternal torment.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Romans 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Romans 2:5-9
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil...

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people."
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Selah.

 

[bling]

God's love is not unconditional - at least not in the sense that He is all embracing of everyone no matter what they do. God extends His love to all of mankind, but the full experience of His love is reserved only for those who submit, confess, and repent of their sins and place themselves under the Lordship of Christ. Upon all others, the Bible says, the wrath of God abides. (Jn. 3:36)

Anyone who thinks they can become God's child without surrendering their life to Him does not understand the message of the Gospel. Salvation is an exchange more than it is the simple acceptance of a gift. God gives us His pure, joyful, abundant life in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in exchange we give Him our selfish, willful, sin-soiled life. And what does God do with us when we surrender ourselves to Him? He puts us to death - the death of the cross. (Ro. 6:7) The apostle Paul is not speaking esoteric nonsense when he writes,

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

The life we yield to God is corrupted by sin and at war with Him and is therefore totally useless to Him. (Ro. 8:7, 8) The only thing to be done with it is to put it to death, bury it, and then "raise us up in newness of life" in Christ. (Ro. 6:4)

Too many Christians think salvation is an add-on, an accessory to life, "fire insurance", a "positive dimension to living." God says to us, however, that salvation necessarily entails putting Him at the center of our life, as its hub, its anchor, its directing core, which means removing and replacing what is already at the core of our life: Our Self. As a new creature in Christ, God orders our choices, our goals, and our desires, which means "dying daily" to the agenda Self urges upon us. Such a life is far removed from the one that thinks to make God just another pleasing asset.

Is it any wonder, then, that the first step God calls us to make toward Him is one of repentance? Such a step means acknowledging that we are wicked and corrupt just as God says we are. It requires being humble enough to agree with God that we are sinners in desperate need of a Saviour. This is why it has been said that all who enter the "narrow gate" to life eternal do so on their knees as a humble supplicant and recipient of God's grace.

God's love, then, is, in a very real sense, conditional. We experience it in its fullness only when we humbly acknowledge our sinful state, our desperate need of our Maker's undeserved mercy and grace, accept by faith Christ's perfect sacrifice for us on the cross, and yield our self-rule to God's rule. Warm fuzzies and a quick prayer asking Jesus to come into your heart so you won't go to hell is not enough. God offers you what you could never have obtained on your own - salvation. All He asks is that you give Him all that you are in return.

Selah.

You are right to get on me about addressing your scripture references directly.

Christ is really our example of unconditional Love and it comes through in all His words and actions. The example I use first and most often is the prodigal son in Luke 15. The son reaches the very bottom and has the choice of retaining the little pride he has left (that is all he has left) or humble himself to the point of accepting the Charity of his Father that he knows is very charitable.

Accepting “Charity” is more the opposite of “doing” something then an act of doing something, it is like a step below doing something, since it is like letting go of even trying to continue on with doing stuff. The first century Jews would not look upon a street beggar in true need as “working”, “earning”, or providing the “condition” for his Charity, but just accepting charity.

Those invited to the party are doing more by coming up with a reason not to go than by providing the “condition” for going and would you consider they provided a “condition” to go.

Back to the scripture you gave:

Paul is witnessing what the compelling Love of Christ has done to him and what it has caused Him to do and it can cause you to do, but it is not a “requirement”.

These are written to believers and not nonbelievers, so you have what you can do or get to do or should want to do but not “have” to do. As a concerned Parent: Paul and John would talk to their children in the faith as “here is what you are to do” like parents talk to their children. Does it mean you cease to be a child if you do not? Will the problem is if you do not continue to grow you will wither and eventually you could wither away if you do not later repent (it is not OSAS). Paul and John want to protect their fellow less mature brothers and sisters from eventually falling away, but it is not “conditional” since they already have the birthright that cannot be taken away. You just do not want to wither to the point of having no value in your birthright and selling it for a bowl of soup.

 

[bling]

I know you think so, but as I explained in my post, I don't quite agree. I've made my case from Scripture. Can you please show how I've mishandled the verses that I offered in support of my assertions?

Well, then God's love is conditional upon our acceptance of it, isn't it? This was, in a way, much the same thing as I was saying.

This seems to be a roundabout way of saying that we are too proud to accept God's gift of salvation. I agree. Receiving God's love is, as I explained in my last post, conditional upon our being humble enough to admit we need it and can do nothing to deserve it. The apostle John also indicates that our pride makes us unwilling to admit we are sinful. (Jn. 3:19), which further prevents us from accessing God's love. Until we confess and repent of our sin, God's love remains untapped, separated from us by the great gulf of our sin.

Isaiah 59:2
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

Acts 3:19
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...

James 4:8-10
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

Seems pretty clear to me from these verses that God does put conditions upon our being able to experience His love.

And what do you do with the following verses that speak of God's terrible wrath? It isn't that God simply lets people go their own way into hell but that He vents His wrath upon wicked, unrepentant people by punishing them with eternal torment.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Romans 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Romans 2:5-9
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil...

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people."
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Selah.

Our differences lie mainly in our definition of “conditional” and unconditional.

You want to first make our understanding that we are sinners a condition, will I would say every mature adult person very shortly after becoming mature adults realize they have done things that have “hurt” others and this weighs on their conscience ( this is sin burdening their hearts). They can try to deny it, cover it up, excuse it, drowned it in drugs, alcohol, sex, work, and even good deeds, but they do not go away. Letting God forgive them is the only true relieve.

If something takes a lot more effort not to do than do which is conditional and which is unconditional?

It takes effort to keep trying to live with the burden your past hurting of others creates (sin) and it would be a huge relief to give up that burden, so is that the “condition” or would people look at that as really being no condition at all.

Some people do reach the point of having all the opportunities they could have to accept God’s help and refused them all and will never accept God’s help (God would know when this happened) and these people now continue on in a much less desirable purpose here on earth, to help others come to the point of accepting God’s Love.

 

[aiki]

Christ is really our example of unconditional Love and it comes through in all His words and actions. The example I use first and most often is the prodigal son in Luke 15. The son reaches the very bottom and has the choice of retaining the little pride he has left (that is all he has left) or humble himself to the point of accepting the Charity of his Father that he knows is very charitable.

Maybe we're loading the term "unconditional" differently. When people use this term it seems to me that it is made synonymous with "all-embracing" or "all-accepting." I don't agree with this use of the term "unconditional" in regards to God's love. It implies that God doesn't care how you behave before or after you're saved; He'll accept you no matter what you do. But if this were true, Christ wouldn't have had to die on the cross.

You mention Christ's unconditional love coming through in all his words and actions but I wonder how you see this in Christ's words to the Pharisees. He called them vipers (Matt. 23:33), whitewashed tombs (Matt. 23:37), hypocrites (Matt. 15:7), and even children of hell (Matt. 23:15). And what about the moneychangers Christ whipped out of the synagogue? How does this work with your idea that Christ's love was unconditional?

I think I understand where you're coming from with the story of the Prodigal Son. The thing is, it doesn't stand alone; there are many other verses in Scripture that qualify and confine how we may interpret and define what the parable means. I agree with you that the father in the parable demonstrated exceptional grace and love toward his wayward son but the story doesn't tell us how the father would have responded if the son had returned prideful, and defiant, and demanding more from his father. If the father is a picture of God, then we know from other biblical passages and verses that the son would have been dealt with very differently. The father would not have unconditionally accepted his son were he still pridefully seeking his own will and way. Insofar as this is true, it seems to me, then, that there are conditions upon God's love - or at least our full experience of it.

Accepting “Charity” is more the opposite of “doing” something then an act of doing something, it is like a step below doing something, since it is like letting go of even trying to continue on with doing stuff.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying here. I wonder though: isn't accepting a gift an action? Isn't it something you do? I mean, if the beggar doesn't reach out and actually take the coppers offered to him, he won't receive them, will he?

Paul is witnessing what the compelling Love of Christ has done to him and what it has caused Him to do and it can cause you to do, but it is not a “requirement”.

I offered the verses from Paul in Galatians and Romans in explanation of the notion that salvation wasn't merely the accepting of a gift but an exchange of life. I think anyone who is not aware that salvation entails this exchange cannot truly be saved, for it is at the heart of what it means to be saved. Salvation isn't just getting something; it also involves giving up something. That "something" that we give up is, as the apostle Paul explains in the verses I offered, our entire self.

You want to first make our understanding that we are sinners a condition, will I would say every mature adult person very shortly after becoming mature adults realize they have done things that have “hurt” others and this weighs on their conscience ( this is sin burdening their hearts).

Sure. I agree with you. However, having a pricked conscience won't save you, will it? As the verses I cited show, one has to admit that sin is sin and that one has offended God as part of the process of salvation through which one enters into God's love.

They can try to deny it, cover it up, excuse it, drowned it in drugs, alcohol, sex, work, and even good deeds, but they do not go away. Letting God forgive them is the only true relieve.

Amen, sister!

If something takes a lot more effort not to do than do which is conditional and which is unconditional?

I'll need you to explain this a bit more...

It takes effort to keep trying to live with the burden your past hurting of others creates (sin) and it would be a huge relief to give up that burden, so is that the “condition” or would people look at that as really being no condition at all.

I think that depends upon who you are, eh? John 3:19, 20 indicates that it is a big problem for people to admit they are a sinner:

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Anywhoo...I don't want to diminish God's love, Bling, in sharing the things I have. You are right to proclaim loudly the wonderful immensity of His love. I think, though, that we both should stand on a middle ground between God's love and His just wrath, encouraging the guilty as well as warning them, extolling God's love for all the world and fearing His terrible judgment of it.


Selah.