Question for Christians

[Antoninus Verus]

In Catholicism 'being homosexual' is not considdered a sin, nor something that someone choses for. Homosexual acts however are considdered sinful. Not everyone believes homosexuality in itsself to be a choice, but what all christians say is that it IS a choice wether or not you give in to any sort of temptations: non sexual or sexual. And if sexual: heterosexual or homosexual.
Wether homosexuality in itsself is a choice or not, and in how much it is society determined is not something I would speculate on. I doubt most homosexuals CHOOSE to be homosexual, choose to be sexually atracted to members of the same sex. What all of them choose though is to fullfill their sexual desires.

So you can be homosexual, but to not be a sinner, you have to date members of the opposite sex? Fae, Im going to make the assumption that you are straight. Telling a homosexual person to date or have sex with a member of the opposite sex is as uncomfortable as you being hit on by a REALLY disgusting guy, I mean ugly in looks as well as mind.

 

[psychedelicist]

I agree 200% with this, especially the last statement.

As I said before, most gays will tell you that they did NOT choose to be gay, but accepted the fact that they were. What I dont get is, if being gay is a choice, and so many gay people struggle so hard with being gay, why would they choose to be gay?

Because njow they have 2 conflicting problems: They are gay, but they have been conditioned by society to believe that homosexuality is bad and wrong. They can't change society, but they also find it very hard to change their homosexuality, so they don't see an easy way out.

 

[Antoninus Verus]

Then it would be even MORE illogical for them to choose to be gay. If society doesnt like it and its a sin in God's eyes, why would they CHOOSE that? I find it extremely hard to believe that THAT many people are addicted to conflict

 

[psychedelicist]

Uhh, I'm an atheist, I don't believe in sin. I guess That question was more intended to people who do believe in sin.

 

[blue_crystal]

The cruel thing though is, even the "acts" considered sin as in premarital sex, straight people have an outlet, marriage. Homosexuals aren't given a non-sinful choice besides "just don't."

 

[Electric Sceptic]

The question was about people being gay and lesbian - which means an attraction, not an act. A male who is sexually attracted to other males and remains celibate (for whatever reason) is still homosexual.

So no, being homosexual is not a choice, any more than being heterosexual is. For all you heterosexuals out there - could you, by an act of will, suddenly stop finding members of the opposite sex attractive, and instead become sexually attracted to members of your own sex? Of course not. In precisely the same way, homosexuals can't become heterosexuals by an act of will.

 

[12volt_man]

Why do many Christians believe that being gay or lesbian is a CHOICE, and that they can just choose not to be if they wanted to?

I'm willing to grant that some people may be born with a proclivity to homosexuality.

On the other hand, some people are born with a predisposition to various addictions, toward violence, toward (heterosexual) sexual addictions, etc.

Are these things good? Should they be celebrated as the left is attempting to say that homosexuality should be?

 

[n0va]

because all we do is a choice. what about celibate priests or young people saving themselves for marriage.. the devil only tempts he doesnt make you do it. we all make choices.

Exactly. The Devil uses our sinful desires to tempt us. We then make the choice.
It's like justifying murderers because "thats the way they are". They might want to kill someone but it doesn't mean they had no choice.

 

[morningstar2651]

No one is born gay. Many studies have been done, but there is no proof that it is anything but a behavior. Research it yourself.

Absense of evidence is not evidence of absence.

If you can cite any studies where it has been proven that genetics has no effect on sexuality and gender identity, please cite them.

Here is some reading:

References

• Blanchard, R. (2001). Fraternal birth order and the maternal immune hypothesis of male homosexuality. Hormones & Behavior.Special ICHB & SBN Proceedings, 40(2), 105-114. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.

• Blanchard, R., Zucker, K. J., Cavacas, A., Allin, S., Bradley, S. J., & Schachter, D. C. (2002). Fraternal birth order and birth weight in probably prehomosexual feminine boys. Hormones & Behavior, 41(3), 321-327. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.

• Bräutigam, W. (1990). Etiological questions regarding neurotic and psychosomatic disorders/Ursachenfragen bei neurotischen und psychosomatischen erkrankungen. Zeitschrift für Psychosomatische Medizin und Psychoanalyse, 36(3), 195-209. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.

• Drescher, J. (2002). Causes and becauses: On etiological theories of homosexuality. Annual of Psychoanalysis, 30, 57-68. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.

• Dzuka, J., & Waroek, R. (1996). Subjective well-being of homosexually oriented men/Subjecktívna pohoda u homosexuálne orientovaných muov. Ceska a Slovenska Psychiatrie, 92(2), 90-98. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.

• Roughton, R. (2002). The two analyses of a gay man: The interplay of social change and psychoanalytic understanding. Annual of Psychoanalysis, 30, 83-99. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.

• Zients, A. B. (2003). A boy who thought he needed to be a girl. Psychoanalytic Study of the Child, 58, 19-34. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.

 

[Johnnz]

If we accept that the Fall deeply damaged mankind then we accept that all areas of our lives are marred in some way in that they fall short of what God intended for us. Therefore is is quite logical and well as highly probable that there will be some people born with a distorted sex drive, just as there are people born with an impaired intellect, some with a crippling physical impairment, and some with debilitating psychological malfunctions. This is a problem of iving ina fallen world.

There is an interesting and thoughtful paper on the Third Way web site (thirdway.org.uk). Click on the 'Way Back' link and you will get a list of past articles. There is much good reading on that site for thoughful Christians.

John
NZ

 

[630111]

Absense of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You meant that to be funny, right?

If you can cite any studies where it has been proven that genetics has no effect on sexuality and gender identity, please cite them.

Find any study that says that homosexuality is genetic and you will find that it has either been refuted or remains a theory or hypothesis. Your examples below are good examples of the last two.

Here is some reading:

References

• Blanchard, R. (2001). Fraternal birth order and the maternal immune hypothesis of male homosexuality. Hormones & Behavior.Special ICHB & SBN Proceedings, 40(2), 105-114. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.
• Blanchard, R., Zucker, K. J., Cavacas, A., Allin, S., Bradley, S. J., & Schachter, D. C. (2002). Fraternal birth order and birth weight in probably prehomosexual feminine boys. Hormones & Behavior, 41(3), 321-327. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.
• Bräutigam, W. (1990). Etiological questions regarding neurotic and psychosomatic disorders/Ursachenfragen bei neurotischen und psychosomatischen erkrankungen. Zeitschrift für Psychosomatische Medizin und Psychoanalyse, 36(3), 195-209. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.
• Drescher, J. (2002). Causes and becauses: On etiological theories of homosexuality. Annual of Psychoanalysis, 30, 57-68. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.
• Dzuka, J., & Waroek, R. (1996). Subjective well-being of homosexually oriented men/Subjecktívna pohoda u homosexuálne orientovaných muov. Ceska a Slovenska Psychiatrie, 92(2), 90-98. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.
• Roughton, R. (2002). The two analyses of a gay man: The interplay of social change and psychoanalytic understanding. Annual of Psychoanalysis, 30, 83-99. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.
• Zients, A. B. (2003). A boy who thought he needed to be a girl. Psychoanalytic Study of the Child, 58, 19-34. Retrieved December 29, 2004, from PsycINFO (1840-Current) database.

Did you actually read these before you posted them?

 

[JustJack!]

These days, it's becoming obvious to more and more ppl that homosexuality is not a choice. That why you see this "Don't give into tempation" arguement. It's all over this topic.

We just have to remember that, outside of the Bible, there is no other reason why homosexuality should be considered wrong. Although it is compared to everything from murder to rape to drug addiction, it is fundimentally different from everything it is compared to on the basis that nobody can show how homosexuality would have a negative affect on society or on the individual level.

 

[faerieevaH]

So you can be homosexual, but to not be a sinner, you have to date members of the opposite sex? Fae, Im going to make the assumption that you are straight. Telling a homosexual person to date or have sex with a member of the opposite sex is as uncomfortable as you being hit on by a REALLY disgusting guy, I mean ugly in looks as well as mind.

You could also choose not to date at all. *ss* While I am indeed straight, with 28 years old, I am still abstaining till I find mr. right. If I don't get married, I will also not have sex. And yes... trust me... I know that it's difficult not to give in to sexual temptations. People seem to forget often that you can lead a whole, fruitful and happy life, even without sex. There are people who will never have sex, some by choice others because of a physical malfunctioning. They can still lead complete and fulfilling lives.

I would never sugest for someone who is completely homosexual to romantically date someone of the oposite gender. I have a friend who is homosexual (well, more than one, but one that I know truely well), went to my schoolball with him and I went to his. He is simply not sexually stimulated by the thought of being with a woman at all.
Having said all that, homosexual activity is, as someone has pointed out, not something that would be considered a graver sin than all the other sins that people commit on the daily basis.

As to the idea that people who sin and will sin again are not 'born again'... that idea seems quite foolish to me, because then no one would be what is called born again. Whatever denomination or religion you follow, the fact that you aim your heart and gaze towards God does not make you sinless or faultless. It makes you strive to fight against temptations, but does not make you win all the time.
Aside from that, not everyone believes homosexuality a sin. There are many good and devout Christians who believe that, just as we don't take the passages of stoning children or putting millstones around others necks literally, the passages about homosexuality should be not taken literally. Or that people throughout the centuries have confused the meaning of those passages. For them, homosexuality nor homosexual activities are sinful and they too pray the holy spirit to guide them in their understanding of the bible. So their concept of sin would allow them to be 'born again' and trying to resist sin, without counting homosexuality amongst them.

 

[SpeakerEnder]

Have you actually TALKED to any homosexual people about it? Some people do choose to become bisexual or homosexual, but I vast majority of the gay population is not gay by choice. Many gays struggle with the fact of thier sexuality for a LONG time before accepting it, some never do, others even commit suicide over it.

Let us clarify something early on here: it is not a choice as to which sins are more of a stumbling block to certain people then others. The choice comes from whether or not those people act out on their propensity towards that sin.

In Catholicism 'being homosexual' is not considdered a sin, nor something that someone choses for. Homosexual acts however are considdered sinful. Not everyone believes homosexuality in itsself to be a choice, but what all christians say is that it IS a choice wether or not you give in to any sort of temptations: non sexual or sexual. And if sexual: heterosexual or homosexual.
Wether homosexuality in itsself is a choice or not, and in how much it is society determined is not something I would speculate on. I doubt most homosexuals CHOOSE to be homosexual, choose to be sexually atracted to members of the same sex. What all of them choose though is to fullfill their sexual desires.

Exactly.

The question was about people being gay and lesbian - which means an attraction, not an act. A male who is sexually attracted to other males and remains celibate (for whatever reason) is still homosexual.

So no, being homosexual is not a choice, any more than being heterosexual is. For all you heterosexuals out there - could you, by an act of will, suddenly stop finding members of the opposite sex attractive, and instead become sexually attracted to members of your own sex? Of course not. In precisely the same way, homosexuals can't become heterosexuals by an act of will.

I pretty much agree with your first paragraph, but your second is a biased generalization. Many homosexuals have already changes their orientation, though by far more then a simple act of will, and continue to do so today. I am one such ex-homosexual. You see, the problem you gay advocates have is that you automatically assume that homosexuality is a unchangeable trait. Fortunately for those of us that have, or do struggle with homosexuality, this is false. All sexuality is variable. Such is the basis for the counseling and treatment of pedophiles. It takes far more then a simple decision to change one's orientation, but it does start with that decision.

Although it is compared to everything from murder to rape to drug addiction, it is fundimentally different from everything it is compared to on the basis that nobody can show how homosexuality would have a negative affect on society or on the individual level.

Another problem with gay advocates is shown here. For some unknown reason, they completely ignore all evidence that the homosexual lifestyle is far more dangerous from a STD standpoint alone. Not to mention that homosexuals on average are far more prone to depression, suicide, drug use, and domestic violence. And don't tell me that that is simply an effect of society. That might make a convincing argument, until you look at statistics from San Francisco, and even better, Sweded to see that the stats are the exact same as in places in which homosexuality is still not accepted today. And Sweden is a place where homosexuality has been accepted from nearly two decades.

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

Have you actually TALKED to any homosexual people about it? Some people do choose to become bisexual or homosexual, but I vast majority of the gay population is not gay by choice. Many gays struggle with the fact of thier sexuality for a LONG time before accepting it, some never do, others even commit suicide over it.

Considering the fact that I was a member of the LGBT community for several years, I think it's safe to assume I have had many discussions with gays and lesbians. I succumbed to the lifestlye myself as the result of several failed relationships with members of the opposite sex. I was duped into believing that meant I was a lesbian. So I lived that life and was (praise God) delivered from it. I had more lesbian friends than gay male friends, and most of them had suffered from abuse.

 

[sc4s2cg]

Umm..Hi May cut in and say my own experience thats happening to me right now? Thanks :o

Im struggling with homosexual feelings, real bad. Im taking courses on www DOT settingcaptivesfree DOT com, and am doing fine as of now.

Now, to get to my point: One day, in school, I looked at other guys as attractive, and was struggling with it. Then I was thinking of God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and how they must look at me. Well, at that second, guys were normal to me, girls were more attractive. In fact, I remember when I moved to Hungary (long story, dont ask), I was attracted to a girl I liked. Then I moved again, so we never got to know each other.
Sometimes I still get those false *crushes* whenever a guy bends down or something, but I know they are just temptations, sexual, and that I cant see myself in the future being with another guy.

See? I believe that being homosexual is a choice. If you just give in to the temptation, its going to be harder to become heterosexual later on. Thats why Im struggling now. Besides, my conscience tells me its wrong. I get this deep pit feeling whenever I have homosexual feelings.

Thats my rant for now

 

[Volos]

because all we do is a choice. what about celibate priests or young people saving themselves for marriage.. the devil only tempts he doesnt make you do it. we all make choices.

So you are saying that you could, at this moment, choose to become a gay man (I made the assumption you were a man…if I am wrong please accept my sincerest apologies), find a nice man, fall in love with him and settle down together in marital bliss? Can you actually choose that?

 

[Volos]

I'm not a christian, but can I offer my 2 cents? I think it is somewhat of a choice. We are the sum of our experiences. If our experiences cause us to be gay, then in that sense it isn't really our choice. However, the gay person always has trhe choice of ignoring that and being straight instead, it would just take a while to get the homosexuality imprint out of our brains completely.

Unfortunately there is not one legitimate study supporting the idea that sexual orientation is a matter of choice, or a matter of one’s experiences or a matter of one’s relationship with either parent, or how one was raised or any other psychological, sociological or familial phenomena. No one. If you know of any peer reviewed study showing otherwise please share it with us, I for one would be very interested to read it.

 

[Volos]

No one is born gay. Many studies have been done, but there is no proof that it is anything but a behavior. Research it yourself.

I have.
Sexual orientation has nothing to do with behavior. People are homosexual, heterosexual bisexual without having to have any sexual experience.

Not one study exists to show that sexual orientation is a matter of:
Choice

The relationship one has with one’s parents

The behavior or parenting skills of either gendered parent

How you were raised

The family structure one was raised in

The result of childhood sexual trauma

Nothing

What does exist is a large and growing body of scientific evidence that shows that sexual orientation is an inborn and immutable trait.



If you know of study showing that sexual orientation is the result of some psychological, sociological, familial characteristic…then please link the rest of us to it.

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

You can choose to be anything. Even if someone was appalled by the idea of homosexual sex, they could still choose to engage in it if the circumstances were right. That would be like me saying I am literally turned off by men with blonde hair, but if I conditioned my mind and the circumstances played out correctly, I could choose to have sex with a guy with blonde hair.