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Featured Question for Christians who believe in Evolution

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by lifepsyop, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. lifepsyop

    lifepsyop Regular Member

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    In considering the accounts of miracles in the Old Testament (e.g. the Exodus Red Sea parting, the supernatural destruction of Jericho, Samson's supernatural strength, Elijah summoning fire down on God's enemies, etc. )

    Do you believe these are generally all mythologized stories? As in, the stories are there to convey a spiritual message, but the actual supernatural events did not actually happen?

    I am curious because most of these events (after you get through the first few books of Genesis) have little to do with the basic Evolutionary story of the development of life on earth, and yet I wonder if those Christians who believe in Evolution, also tend to have a problem accepting any of the major accounts of supernatural events in the Old Testament as real, actual events?
     
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  2. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    The issue is not that they are scientifically impossible, or that there is no physical evidence that they happened, but rather there is no physical evidence showing that something else happened instead.

    For example, if we found Sodom and Gomorrah, and could confirm they were the same cities mentioned in scripture, and they were completely intact and did not show any signs of ever being damaged, and they had history and signs of habitation lasting for many centuries after they were supposed to have been destroyed, then that would mean there could only be two possibilities:

    1. The destruction of the cities as narrated in the OT never happened - perhaps it was not literal history.

    2. The destruction did happen, but some supernatural power wiped all evidence of it from history, and replaced it with a false history that never happened.

    In that case, I would have to go with option 1, as option 2 would imply a deceptive creation.

    However if, as is the case in real life, archaeologists have never positively identified the locations of Sodom and Gomorrah, then there is no contradiction when it comes to believing that they were destroyed as written in the Bible.
     
  3. Akita Suggagaki

    Akita Suggagaki Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I lean that way. Such events seem inconsistent with our lived reality. But then I believe in the miracles of Jesus and his resurrection so maybe it is I who am inconsistent as well.
     
  4. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    Why "all?" Clearly something momentous happened in each case. But each account has to stand on ts own merit.

    And no one would expect them to. The stories of the OT cover a few thousand years of human history--a drop n the bucket compared to the millions of years of evolution.
    That would depend on the individual Christian, as influenced by the teaching of his sect or denomination. But in principle there is no reason to reject miracles merely on the basis of a naturalistic process for the origin of our physical bodies.
     
  5. ChristianGirl_96

    ChristianGirl_96 Well-Known Member Angels Team Supporter

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    This is a hot button topic for many Christians no matter what. Personally I’m not actually sure if I truly believe in evolution or not however. Everyone is different though. Let them make that decision.
     
  6. Tra Phull

    Tra Phull Day Tribber

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    I believe in evolution, I guess Old Earth creationism, but do not doubt Red Sea parting, I don't buy into "sea of reeds" and the wind blew it dry, I mean description is wall of water on both sides...
    Jericho, ok, Samson - iffy on an actual 1000 Philistines before he put down the jawbone, that smacks of hyperbole

    and Elijah - yeah, fire fell supernatural.

    Look how much supernatural AS A MINIMUM a Christian believes about Jesus - virgin birth, turned water to wine, walked on water, raised Lazarus of Bethany from death, rose from dead Himself...
    Certain OT things like Joshua commanding the sun to stand still, no.

    Case by case basis
     
  7. lifepsyop

    lifepsyop Regular Member

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    So.. the consensus opinion of the archeology institutions is a total rejection of the accounts of any supernatural events in the Old Testament. Is that basically where you stand?
     
  8. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    I feel that some of the stories in the Bible are exaggerated natural phenomena like with Noah’s flood . Some are just tales but we consider them to be important for the message. These are dogmas, Beliefs without evidence. Science simply doesn’t work like that . I don’t worry about it much. I'll accept a verified evidence science account over anything that happens in the Bible. Historical accuracy wasn’t always a literary device especially back then.
     
  9. lifepsyop

    lifepsyop Regular Member

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    I suspect this is the way most Christian Evolutionists feel. I don't think they are persuaded by the actual evidence for Evolution, so much as a deep-seated belief in a general naturalistic worldview.
     
  10. Speedwell

    Speedwell Well-Known Member

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    Quite wrong. You can't equate "unable to confirm" to "reject totally."
     
  11. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    It depends on what you mean by evolution. It's obvious that we see evidence of evolution every day in the way life can grow and adapt, and humans are very adaptable, so it makes sense that there is some degree of truth to evolution, again depending on what you mean by it.

    I'm not really interested in discussing evolution per se, so I only brought it up because I may or may not fall into the category of "Christians who believe in evolution" as you may define it. I do very strongly believe that faith and science can and do co-exist, and whatever seems to conflict between them is a combination of our lack of knowledge and the mystery of God's creation. I also don't have any issue with co-existing with that mystery. Not everything needs to be explainable by the scientific method. Science and spirituality don't need to be the same.

    As far as the stories in the bible, I believe that they are largely true, but if for whatever reason they all just turned out to just be uplifting stories, it wouldn't have any noticeable impact on my faith. My faith isn't dependent on whether or not a given story in the bible is figurative or literal because God's good news message remains the same either way. I think by viewing these stories in a multitude of ways, both figuratively and literally, can only help to enhance our faith and our understanding of God.

    God will reveal what he chooses to reveal to us and in the meantime, we can enjoy living within his holy mystery.
     
  12. lifepsyop

    lifepsyop Regular Member

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    "Science" automatically rejects any accounts of supernatural events in the Bible from the outset. That is the philosophy which naturalistic science is founded and built upon.

    It seems to me that Christian/Theistic evolutionists tend to reject a supernatural worldview in general. It's not so much a persuasion of evidence, as a general alignment with the modern metaphysical worldview of naturalism.
     
  13. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    Science cannot confirm or disconfirm supernatural phenomena. Creationists don’t like that as they think that scientists should just grandfather in stories from the Bible just because they are stories from the Bible. They might have done that in the 1700s but that won’t work now . A scientist nowadays will ask for confirming evidence before they’ll accept phenomena as real
     
  14. lifepsyop

    lifepsyop Regular Member

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    Maybe I worded that poorly... what I meant was that the philosophical basis of modern science is an outright rejection of the supernatural.

    Even if a team of scientists somehow went back in time and witnessed the Red Sea parting during the Exodus, all it would inspire is the task of discovering secret natural motions behind the phenomenon.

    The modern scientific institutions are metaphysically constrained to a naturalistic interpretation of reality.
     
  15. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    Some mainstream scientists are methodological naturalists . They use natural methods for science and accept theological beliefs. some like Richard Dawkins are philosophical naturalists and for them WYSIWYG.

    for you to claim the scientists are anti Bible is an erroneous idea on your part . Even philosophical naturalists would change their minds with confirming evidence
     
  16. lifepsyop

    lifepsyop Regular Member

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    One of the more surprising revelations I've had is how traditional Creationists are unknowingly boxed into the same metaphysical worldview as the Evolutionists. (e.g. they are consumed with the task of finding and explaining naturalistic mechanisms associated the global flood) ... There are many creationists who would be uncomfortable discussing the idea of spirits and angels and demons interacting in our world, (even though the Bible states these things plainly) as such things are so far removed from modern naturalistic sensibilities.
     
  17. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    No... that's not even close to what I said.
     
  18. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    Again mainstream scientists will tell you that they cannot confirm or disconfirm supernatural phenomena. It is out of the realm of science.
     
  19. lifepsyop

    lifepsyop Regular Member

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    No, mainstream science IS methodological naturalism. It was built on that philosophical foundation. It cannot interpret reality outside of this box.

    I didn't claim all scientists are anti-Bible. What I'm suggesting is that Christians (or any Theists) who accept Evolution, do so not from a specific evaluation of the evidence, but a general alignment with a naturalistic philosophy of the world and its history. (in other words, they would tend to outright reject supernatural accounts in the Old Testament whether or not conventional Evolution/Archeology even comments on them)
     
  20. lifepsyop

    lifepsyop Regular Member

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    You said:

    So are you basing your historical worldview on the consensus of archeologists or not?
     
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