Question for Calvinists

[marianservant]

Ok, I really don't wanna start a debate or anything, just an answer and I'll return to my evil catholic ways LOL. If everything is completely predestined then after one is "saved" what is the purpose of asking God for something in prayer? If everyhting is predestined should God not already now our need and whims? Aother queston...why the creation of evil, or the need for a final battle ad infinitum...

Just Curious, not trolling for a debate or argument
God Bless

 

[Irishcat922]

Because as God ordains all things He also ordains the means through which all things occur.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

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[cygnusx1]

Ok, I really don't wanna start a debate or anything, just an answer and I'll return to my evil catholic ways LOL. If everything is completely predestined then after one is "saved" what is the purpose of asking God for something in prayer? If everyhting is predestined should God not already now our need and whims? Aother queston...why the creation of evil, or the need for a final battle ad infinitum...

Just Curious, not trolling for a debate or argument
God Bless

I don't mind these questions but they are kinda loaded if you know what I mean .

why pray if God knows already what you are going to ask has a similar currency but few fail to ask that question , it isn't as much fun.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

.

I agree.

Rob

 

[Tertiumquid]

Ok, I really don't wanna start a debate or anything, just an answer and I'll return to my evil catholic ways LOL.

Hi There- This is a most difficult thing to do. Church history is replete with debate over predestination and God's sovereignty. Think of it this way- great struggles with particular aspects of the Christian faith are well worth the effort- I think sometimes we need to wrestle with God in order to grow.

If everything is completely predestined then after one is "saved" what is the purpose of asking God for something in prayer?

Great question. The first and foremost reason a Christian must pray is the Bible commands us to do so! 1 Thes. 5:17- "Pray continually"- Eph. 6:18- "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions". There is deep mystery in prayer- how could there not be? The finite is speaking to the infinite!

If everyhting is predestined should God not already now our need and whims?

I guess you mean "know". Indeed, God does know everything, even in Roman Catholic theology. God, because He is omniscient, knows everything. If He didn't, He wouldn't be God. Remember what the Lord Jesus said: "your Father knows what you need before you ask him" (Mt. 6:8). Again, we come face to face with a deep mystery of God.

Aother queston...why the creation of evil, or the need for a final battle ad infinitum...

There is deep mystery again in the existence of evil, and there is no satisfactory answer this side of heaven that totally explains how a completely sovereign all good God and evil exist. But we do have some knowledge revealed to us about evil. We know, that ultimately all of reality culminates in God's glory: Romans 8:28- "We know that in all things God works for the good..." The best example of this is Joseph in Genesis 50. After going through a myriad of seemingly "evil" circumstances Joseph declares to his brothers, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." So, in all circumstances, the evil that occurs happens for a reason: God uses it for a good purpose. Even the worst event in all human history was predetermined by God: Christ was handed over to wicked men by God's set purpose (Acts 2:23). What was the most evil act committed in human history is used by God for the most glorious act in human history: the redemption of the world.

These answers only scratch the surface. I wrestle continually with the Biblical text. I am Calvinist because of the Biblical text. It says what it says. I do not understand it totally, but to be obediant to God I believe it.

I enjoy cordial dialog. Feel free to interact with these answers, and know that I appreciate honest questions, and I respect anyone who grapples with these type of questions. I have had many friends who have hated these type of answers that I gave, only to hear them tell me years later that what they once hated became the sweetest of all comfort.

Regards,
James Swan
http://www.ntrmin.org/rccorner-reformation.htm

 

[marianservant]

Thank you all for the repsonses, they cleared some things up, I am very surprised at the kindness, I am very curious about calvinism but I usually am met with anger and rudeness, this was a nice change.
God Bless

 

[Tertiumquid]

Thank you all for the repsonses, they cleared some things up, I am very surprised at the kindness, I am very curious about calvinism but I usually am met with anger and rudeness, this was a nice change.
God Bless

This method of communication is prone to misunderstanding. You might be thinking i'm shouting or being sarcastic, when i'm simply saying something gently. This is just a really limiting way to communicate. So much is lost in translation from brain to keyboard. Sometimes I think someone is angry or rude, when in fact i'm just reading that into their words.

This though isn't always the case. Sometimes people really are awful, typing away with hostile emmotion. It seems to me people feel invincible behind their keyboards- We can say anything, because we aren't directly speaking to each other face to face. But, one must continually be reminded that the tongue is a weapon, even in cyber-space (this is my modern day translation of James 3).

Now, I lose my temper every now and then. Just recently, a man with a doctorate in theology (who lived his life as a professional theologian) provoked me. His e-mails were arrogant and silly- He would fight over anything, just to fight (like the old Monty Python skit of a guy who pays for an argument). I really blasted him at one point a few weeks back for his really nitpicking stuff.

The man was killed in a car accident last week. Kinda made me think that while I was right in my evaluation of his arguments, my lack of love in blasting him may not have been the right approach. Had I known he was about to be killed, would I have said what I did in the tone that I did? Most definately not.

Regards,
James Swan

 

[Reformationist]

Ok, I really don't wanna start a debate or anything, just an answer and I'll return to my evil catholic ways LOL.

Sincere questions are always welcome here.

If everything is completely predestined then after one is "saved" what is the purpose of asking God for something in prayer?

Well, there are multiple reasons, none of which are to cause it to be given. We pray because God commanded that we pray. We pray to show that we understand our dependence upon God for all things. We pray in worship to God. We pray to extend unto others the mercy and grace of our Lord.

If everyhting is predestined should God not already now our need and whims?

Of course.

Aother queston...why the creation of evil, or the need for a final battle ad infinitum...

Well, evil, like all created things, is purposed to sanctify the children of God. I am not aware of the "final battle" issue so I'll pass on addressing that one.

Just Curious, not trolling for a debate or argument
God Bless

Please return if you have any more questions.

God bless

 

[marianservant]

One more question: What degree of mutuality exists between calvinistic doctrines on predestination, total depravity etc, and the Augustinian version. From what I have read of both men there seems to be a great deal of agreement between them. Thanks and God Bless

 

[rmwilliamsll]

One more question: What degree of mutuality exists between calvinistic doctrines on predestination, total depravity etc, and the Augustinian version. From what I have read of both men there seems to be a great deal of agreement between them. Thanks and God Bless

It seems to be a fruitful way of looking at the Reformation as a return to Augustinian roots after the Aristotelian accretation of the Medieval period. Although that leads naturally to the idea that the Reformers were more neoPlatonist and (re)introduced those ideas as a rebuttal of the Aristotelian ones of the 16thC Roman church.

....

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Marianservant--Concerning your question about "why pray, then?" In Proverbs, the personification of wisdom, i.e., Christ, says that before the foundation of the world, His "delights were with the sons of men." Of Course, men had not yet been created, BUT in Ps. 103:17 we see that "from" everlasting, the LORD had determined that He would have mercy upon certain ones, and before the foundation of the world, they were chosen in Christ (Eph.1:4). Sooo, before the world was founded, the redeemer was rejoicing in those whom the Father had given Him. There is an element of fellowship in that rejoicing.

Prayer is largely a matter of fellowship, but there is more to it than that. The apostle said that we "are laborers together with God." (1 Cor.3:9) Jesus directed the disciples,
"If you ask anything in my name, I will do it that the Father may be glorified in the Son." Therefore, a part of our laboring together with Him is that we pray about things to be done that will glorify the Father, and then Jesus does them. Just as the first priority of the Lord Jesus on earth was to glorify the Father, so it is today; and He graciously allows us to enter into His labors for the glory of God.

In Ezek. 36:21-38, God makes gracious promises through Ezekiel concerning blessings that He is definitely going to shower upon His people. He assures them that He will surely bless them, then He says, "I the LORD have spoken it, and I will also do it. Thus
says the LORD GOD, "I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it fore them..." By saying so, God lets His people know that He treasures His people's prayers not because without them He cannot or would not work, but simply because "we are laborers together with Him" and there is fellowship in it.

 

[marianservant]

Thanks to everyone you have all been a great help in my discernment of truth and I appreciate it. I still grapple with the doctrines of reformed tehology, but I think I have a better understanding. I posted in another thread about the elect in other faiths (denoms not other religions) and everyone said yes there are elect in other faiths, but isn't that contradictory? I mean for example are there any elect in the wesleyan methodist church that die a believeing methodist?Because they deny election totally and preach against it, so if election is gospel truth and they preach against it they cant be elect because they would be contradicting God's truth. And that goes for a lot of other faiths too (not jsut the RCC) so using this logic dosen't that mean that only churches teaching election (reformed/calvinist) contain heavenbound christians? because all others go against the gospel (in teaching against election) so they aren't true because denying Christ's word negates any chance at election. Just questions, not trolling or flaming at all.

God Bless

 

[Reformationist]

Thanks to everyone you have all been a great help in my discernment of truth and I appreciate it. I still grapple with the doctrines of reformed tehology, but I think I have a better understanding. I posted in another thread about the elect in other faiths (denoms not other religions) and everyone said yes there are elect in other faiths, but isn't that contradictory? I mean for example are there any elect in the wesleyan methodist church that die a believeing methodist?Because they deny election totally and preach against it, so if election is gospel truth and they preach against it they cant be elect because they would be contradicting God's truth. And that goes for a lot of other faiths too (not jsut the RCC) so using this logic dosen't that mean that only churches teaching election (reformed/calvinist) contain heavenbound christians? because all others go against the gospel (in teaching against election) so they aren't true because denying Christ's word negates any chance at election. Just questions, not trolling or flaming at all.

God Bless

Well, actually, all churches, if they wish to be a comprehensive faith, must have a teaching on election, for it is an explicit issue in the Bible. Even the Roman Catholic church has a teaching on election.

Having a proper understanding of the biblical doctrine of election isn't the basis for someone being elected so, no, it isn't the case that only churches teaching election, or even that only churches teaching election properly contain Heavenbound Christians. It goes more to the heart of proper worship than salvation.

Election is a mark of God's grace and the grace of God does not rest on the theological acumen of God's disciples.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I found this a rather odd claim to appear on newadvent.org:

"Theology restricts the term to those Divine decrees which have reference to the supernatural end of rational beings, especially of man. Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost through their own fault, there must exist a twofold predestination: (a) one to heaven for all those who die in the state of grace; (b) one to the pains of hell for all those who depart in sin or under God's displeasure. However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine "reprobation", so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect."

Sounds rather Calvinistic in nature to me.

 

[marianservant]

Thanks reformationist, you have been a huge help, and yes it does sound calvinistic, a lot catholic have a calvinistic view on election and predestination due to the writings of Augustine.

 

[Reformationist]

Thanks reformationist, you have been a huge help, and yes it does sound calvinistic, a lot catholic have a calvinistic view on election and predestination due to the writings of Augustine.

You're very welcome. Thank you for asking your questions in a sincere and open manner. I appreciate that spirit and I know that my reformed brethren do as well.

God bless

 

[frumanchu]

I posted in another thread about the elect in other faiths (denoms not other religions) and everyone said yes there are elect in other faiths, but isn't that contradictory? I mean for example are there any elect in the wesleyan methodist church that die a believeing methodist?Because they deny election totally and preach against it, so if election is gospel truth and they preach against it they cant be elect because they would be contradicting God's truth. And that goes for a lot of other faiths too (not jsut the RCC) so using this logic dosen't that mean that only churches teaching election (reformed/calvinist) contain heavenbound christians? because all others go against the gospel (in teaching against election) so they aren't true because denying Christ's word negates any chance at election.

I agree with Reformationist that any denomination which aspires to remain true to the Scriptures must have some doctrine of predestination and election since Scripture explicitly lays forth both concepts.

However, I don't know of any except the most extreme of cases where it is maintained that if you do not believe in a particular understanding of those concepts you are not saved. They are considered to be secondary issues of faith that, while certainly important, are not essential to saving faith in Christ.

It was once said by a great theologian (I forget who) that you will be hard-pressed to find any human being who is more than 80% correct in their theology. Now, that is by no means an endorsement of relativism or defeatism whereby we can claim that it doesn't matter whether or not we are correct in any of our doctrines because nobody can be correct in all of them, but it does reflect the truth that we are fallen, finite creatures who see through the glass darkly.

Election is an explicit Biblical truth, and while it could very well be that none of us is completely correct in our understanding of it, it is certain that we can't all be correct in our understanding of it at the same time since most of the prevalent views contradict each other. At the end of the day, understanding election is not something upon which our salvation hinges. There are much more serious and foundational doctrines such as Christ's divinity, His substitutionary atonement, etc which more clearly separate believers from unbelievers.

 

[Reformationist]

I agree with Reformationist that any denomination which aspires to remain true to the Scriptures must have some doctrine of predestination and election since Scripture explicitly lays forth both concepts.

However, I don't know of any except the most extreme of cases where it is maintained that if you do not believe in a particular understanding of those concepts you are not saved. They are considered to be secondary issues of faith that, while certainly important, are not essential to saving faith in Christ.

It was once said by a great theologian (I forget who) that you will be hard-pressed to find any human being who is more than 80% correct in their theology. Now, that is by no means an endorsement of relativism or defeatism whereby we can claim that it doesn't matter whether or not we are correct in any of our doctrines because nobody can be correct in all of them, but it does reflect the truth that we are fallen, finite creatures who see through the glass darkly.

Election is an explicit Biblical truth, and while it could very well be that none of us is completely correct in our understanding of it, it is certain that we can't all be correct in our understanding of it at the same time since most of the prevalent views contradict each other. At the end of the day, understanding election is not something upon which our salvation hinges. There are much more serious and foundational doctrines such as Christ's divinity, His substitutionary atonement, etc which more clearly separate believers from unbelievers.

Very true fru. Nicely said.

God bless

 

[Bulldog]

Thanks reformationist, you have been a huge help, and yes it does sound calvinistic, a lot catholic have a calvinistic view on election and predestination due to the writings of Augustine.

Don't forget Aquinas, who taught a system similar to Calvinism.