Question about TULIP

[Jon_]

Can you create a robot that can love you? If not please explain why not.

Robots are unvolitional souless beings that are programmed to respond to criteria and are completely without consciousness or responsibility for their actions. None of these things apply to human beings.

If God created us to build and to destroy, how is that any different then us creating a robot to build and destroying things?

More assumptions: this time that God created us to build and destroy.

Can you force a woman to marry you?

Happens all the time. And have you never heard of arranged marriages?

Do you tell a woman you will marry me?

Do I? No. Do some people? Yep. Of course, you have an ambiguous example here. How do you define marriage? (Because it's probably unbiblical.)

Or do you ask her will you marry me and if she loves you she will say yes?

Just because she loves me doesn't mean she'll marry me. She may love herself and her career more.

Forced love is rape,

No, forced sexual intercourse is rape. Quit trying to redefine terms so you can argue from outrage. And you can't force love. It's volitional.

how can you make one to love you without them choosing to love you?

Humans can't. But God can. How? Because he is omnipotent.

It's erroneous to believe God created Hitler to torture people.

It is erroneous to say that anything happens apart from the will of God.

If you say Hitler didn't have choice not to torture then you can't blame Hitler but God.

When did I say Hitler didn't have a choice? Moreover, how is it implied that Hitler is somehow not responsible for what he did?

Please make sense of TULIP for me.

You must first have sense to find things sensible.

This sound like it makes God not loving at all and is evil.

That's because you don't understand it.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Elderone]

orthedoxy

The subject of free-will is not an easy one. At this site are many articles by various authors explaning it. Give some of them a read and ask God for insight.

 

[orthedoxy]

Robots are unvolitional souless beings that are programmed to respond to criteria and are completely without consciousness or responsibility for their actions. None of these things apply to human beings.

Your view makes it apply to humans

More assumptions: this time that God created us to build and destroy.

Do you believe all acts are ordained by God? Could a person not commit an action that he was preordain to do?
Please explain I’m just trying to understand your view.

Humans can't. But God can. How? Because he is omnipotent.

I would disagree with you God can’t lie he also can’t force love.

It is erroneous to say that anything happens apart from the will of God.

Did God want Hitler to torture people?
When did I say Hitler didn't have a choice? Moreover, how is it implied that Hitler is somehow not responsible for what he did?

Please answer these questions so I can understand what you believe.
Did God want Hitler to torture people?
Did God create Hitler to torture people?

 

[Jon_]

Your view makes it apply to humans

You now to presume to speak for me?

Do you believe all acts are ordained by God?

Yes.

Could a person not commit an action that he was preordain to do?

No.

Please explain I’m just trying to understand your view.

Please. You already know where I stand.

I would disagree with you God can’t lie he also can’t force love.

God does not lie because this is contradictory to his nature. He cannot lie because everything he says is truth. Because he is the sole source for moral value judgments, everything he does is righteous. Even if it happens to be different from how we think he should act. What we think and how we feel are inconsequential to God's abilities. He can do and does whatever he pleases. The reason he does not lie is because it does not please him to do so.

Please answer these questions so I can understand what you believe. Did God want Hitler to torture people?

Yes.

Did God create Hitler to torture people?

Yes.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[5solas]

An interesting article (for all of it click here: source)




....... A glancing at the title might lead some to think that Edwards and Luther differed. This is not so, essentially. The title illustrates Edwards’ thesis that we are free to choose that which we most desire. The truth, though, according to Edwards, is that because by nature we are dead in our trespasses and sins, we desire only sin. Our natural inclination is not toward righteousness, but toward sin. All mankind, according to Edwards, are “by nature in a state of total ruin, both with respect to the moral evil of which they are the subjects, and the afflictive evil to which they are exposed, the one as the consequence and punishment of the other”.

According to Edwards, proof of original sin is easily demonstrated. Aside from the supernatural biblical proof found in Romans 1, 3, 5 and Ephesians 2, there is plenty of natural proof as well: All people sin! All of human history testifies to this. And we have more proof today, following two World Wars and one Cold War, than Edwards had in his day. Because we are free to choose that which we most desire, and because what we most desire is to destroy ourselves, it is our freedom that turns out to be our greatest enemy........
http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/html/th/TH.h.Tchividjian.Edwards and Free Will.html

 

[Imblessed]

Orthodoxy,

Haven't we been through this before with you? (forgive me if it was someone else)

You keep bringing up extreme situations to prove your theory that our view of God is that He is mean and cruel. You go on and on throwing out theories and situations that just cannot be used to justify your offense at the thought that God is in Total Control. Not just a little in control, but Totally and Truly.

I'm sorry that it offends you to think that God may have created people that are going to Hell. But honestly, even if your view of "free will" is right, He's STILL creating people to go to Hell. It doesn't change anything, no matter how you try to twist it.

We do not have the "free will" to accept God, unless He gives it to us. It's proven over and over in the bible. Pelegius was condemned as a heretic for saying we had a choice to be good, and the ability. (3 times I think. ) Arminianism is just a newer version of Pelegianism. Both deny Total Depravity. Both views have been condemmed.

that is not to say we are robots, or puppets. Honestly now, do you really think any of us here in this discussion feel like robots or puppets? Come on, we make choices every day, we live, love, cry, regret, rejoice, dispair, question, recieve, understand, screw up, pray, etc etc every day. We just also understand that God is in control, and we know we have been given a precious gift, and we do our best to walk the walk He wants for us, knowing that everyday, we do something wrong. But we also know that God is growing us, maturing us, sanctifying us, everyday and in every way. And that there is a reason that God allows things to happen; although we may not know or understand that reason in our lifetime, God causes good through every bad act.

I may have gotten off on to a tangent about the soveriegnity of God, but I feel it applies to the whole "free-will" issue. Our will is "free" right up until it bumps into God's Will. No amount of fighting, scenerio building, or justification will change that.

 

[Jon_]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Imblessed again.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Rick Otto]

You said,
"Please answer these questions so I can understand what you believe.
Did God want Hitler to torture people?
Did God create Hitler to torture people?"

I notice you answer some questions w/a question, so maybe you can afford me the same liberty and 'get' the answer thereby:

Did God want His only begotten Son to suffer & die?
Did God create Roman Emperors & soldiers to carry out His prophecies in Genesis?

Are you familiar with Isaiah 45:7?
7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Do you remember about God putting a lying spirit in the mouths of prophets in the book of Kings?
1Ki 22:22 -And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 -Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Does this make God evil, or mean?
I think not.
I believe you might be judging God by your own, human standards.
You might value every human soul equaly, but God obviously does not.
You might value human will & hold it sacred, beyond the jurisdiction of its very creator.
Imagine yourself fashioning a doll out of clay. Now imagine the clay flippin' you off & sayin' I got plans, I'm outta here!
Unless you (the creator) predestined that doll to do that, it is just gonna sit there and be clay.
His thoughts & ways are above ours. Well enough to trust His intentions.
Consider His instructions to Joshua at Jericho. Rahab made it out, but how much preachin' & teachin' did he offer the 'free wills' of the rest?
He chose Isreal, He didn't offer Isreal the option of being chosen or not.
There is far more evidence of mankind's will being subject God, than there is of it being free of God's determined destiny. Jesus didn't knock on the door of Paul's heart & plead to be received. He knocked him off his horse & blinded him!

 

[Imblessed]

His thoughts & ways are above ours. Well enough to trust His intentions.
Consider His instructions to Joshua at Jericho. Rahab made it out, but how much preachin' & teachin' did he offer the 'free wills' of the rest?
He chose Isreal, He didn't offer Isreal the option of being chosen or not.
There is far more evidence of mankind's will being subject God, than there is of it being free of God's determined destiny. Jesus didn't knock on the door of Paul's heart & plead to be received. He knocked him off his horse & blinded him!

amen to that otto!!!!

 

[BBAS 64]

You said,
"Please answer these questions so I can understand what you believe.
Did God want Hitler to torture people?
Did God create Hitler to torture people?"

I notice you answer some questions w/a question, so maybe you can afford me the same liberty and 'get' the answer thereby:

Did God want His only begotten Son to suffer & die?
Did God create Roman Emperors & soldiers to carry out His prophecies in Genesis?

Are you familiar with Isaiah 45:7?
7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Do you remember about God putting a lying spirit in the mouths of prophets in the book of Kings?
1Ki 22:22 -And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 -Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Does this make God evil, or mean?
I think not.
I believe you might be judging God by your own, human standards.
You might value every human soul equaly, but God obviously does not.
You might value human will & hold it sacred, beyond the jurisdiction of its very creator.
Imagine yourself fashioning a doll out of clay. Now imagine the clay flippin' you off & sayin' I got plans, I'm outta here!
Unless you (the creator) predestined that doll to do that, it is just gonna sit there and be clay.
His thoughts & ways are above ours. Well enough to trust His intentions.
Consider His instructions to Joshua at Jericho. Rahab made it out, but how much preachin' & teachin' did he offer the 'free wills' of the rest?
He chose Isreal, He didn't offer Isreal the option of being chosen or not.
There is far more evidence of mankind's will being subject God, than there is of it being free of God's determined destiny. Jesus didn't knock on the door of Paul's heart & plead to be received. He knocked him off his horse & blinded him!

Good Day, Rick Otto

You mean he did not ask him to kindly dismount... you must belive in a non- loving, mean sprited, child eater god.. I could never serve a god like that

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[5solas]

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

this is off topic:

brother, I did it for you in your name
http://www.christianforums.com/t1926539-question-about-tulip.html

back to topic

(and of course I would not have done it if I did not agree.....)

 

[Jon_]

this is off topic:

brother, I did it for you in your name
http://www.christianforums.com/t1926539-question-about-tulip.html

back to topic

(and of course I would not have done it if I did not agree.....)

For that you get rep and a !

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Imblessed]

5Solas and Jon,

both of you are too kind! Thanks!

 

[Jon_]

5Solas and Jon,

both of you are too kind! Thanks!

for you too, Windi!!

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[orthedoxy]

Jon
Would you consider Hitler to be evil for what he did? If so why would you since he was only doing Gods will?
Also how is that different then a robot being programmed to do certain thing?
How can one blame Hitler for being evil?

 

[orthedoxy]

You said,
"Please answer these questions so I can understand what you believe.
Did God want Hitler to torture people?
Did God create Hitler to torture people?"

I notice you answer some questions w/a question, so maybe you can afford me the same liberty and 'get' the answer thereby:

Did God want His only begotten Son to suffer & die?
Did God create Roman Emperors & soldiers to carry out His prophecies in Genesis?

Are you familiar with Isaiah 45:7?
7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Do you remember about God putting a lying spirit in the mouths of prophets in the book of Kings?
1Ki 22:22 -And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 -Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Does this make God evil, or mean?
I think not.
I believe you might be judging God by your own, human standards.
You might value every human soul equaly, but God obviously does not.
You might value human will & hold it sacred, beyond the jurisdiction of its very creator.
Imagine yourself fashioning a doll out of clay. Now imagine the clay flippin' you off & sayin' I got plans, I'm outta here!
Unless you (the creator) predestined that doll to do that, it is just gonna sit there and be clay.
His thoughts & ways are above ours. Well enough to trust His intentions.
Consider His instructions to Joshua at Jericho. Rahab made it out, but how much preachin' & teachin' did he offer the 'free wills' of the rest?
He chose Isreal, He didn't offer Isreal the option of being chosen or not.
There is far more evidence of mankind's will being subject God, than there is of it being free of God's determined destiny. Jesus didn't knock on the door of Paul's heart & plead to be received. He knocked him off his horse & blinded him!

Yo Ricky

I'm only trying to understand The Reformed view. Is there anything wrong with that?
Why don't you ask these questions in the OBOB? They will give you good respond.
The way I see it is that you believe God is a liar and a murderer. You even quote verses to prove it.
I want to answer your questions but I don’t want to turn this into a debate.

 

[Beoga]

Jon
Would you consider Hitler to be evil for what he did? If so why would you since he was only doing Gods will?
Also how is that different then a robot being programmed to do certain thing?
How can one blame Hitler for being evil?

I think this verse sums up the Reformed view on this topic very well:

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

I don't know if you have ever heard of the idea of compatibilism, but if you haven't, I am sure someone more knowledgable than I who understands the idea could explain it to you.

Brian

 

[Rick Otto]

I understand you're investigating the Reform view thanks, but
I'm not sure why you'd think I see anything wrong with that.
Sounds like maybe I've offended you in some way. Sorry about that.
I wasn't realy looking for answers to my questions, they were rhetorical.
Mr. O, my point was not make a God a liar & a murderer, but to show how He can use evil for good, and how ridiculous it is for us to question His motives gauging His actions with a human value system.

If I were contentious & provocative, I might say you make God out to be a clairvoyant but helpless bungler, with an out of control creation, leaving individual salvation in the hands of lumps of clay.

I will assume your best intentions and check out the forum you mention.

 

[Jon_]

Would you consider Hitler to be evil for what he did?

Yes.

If so why would you since he was only doing Gods will?

Because he was still morally responsible.

Also how is that different then a robot being programmed to do certain thing?

Because God holds humans accountable.

How can one blame Hitler for being evil?

Because he was.

Look, you haven't even the basis for an argument here. Instead of continuing under this "guise" of "trying to understand Reformed Theology," why don't you bugger off? You can't accept the Lord's truth because he has purposed to you to folly. I am only too thankful he has not blinded my eyes in the same way that he obviously has yours.

Or better yet, start a thread in the Philosophy forum and make your case there. I would be more than happy to show you how wrong you are, Lord willing. If you refuse my challenge, then kindly leave and quit bothering us with your inane questions and false presumptions.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Rick Otto]

Why did he accuse ME of making God out to be a liar?
Why didn't he call God a liar & murderer, himself?
All I did was show him Isaiah 45:7 & 1Kings22:22-3.
I didn't WRITE them.
Maybe he has his glasses on backwards.

I'll watch the Philo Forum, Jon.
I'm sure he's loadin' his clips as we speak .