Question about the sign of the cross...

[truefiction1]

I believe that article contains an error. Pope Innocent III said that it goes from the right to left. So in his time it was still done in an Orthodox manner. It probably began in the 14th century and by the 15th century started taking hold.

Perhaps. Or there may have been some confusion about what was the proper way of signing as early as that time that prompted Innocent to comment on it in his writings, written before he was pope.

 

[truefiction1]

If you look at my quote from Pope Innocent III in post 9, he states that " Some, however, produce the sign of the cross from the left hand to the right hand; because of the misery we must pass on to glory, even as the Lord passed over from death to life, and from hell to paradise, especially as it is one and the same identical way" (google translate)

My suspicion now is confirmed. I don't read Latin. Thanks for translating.

 

[truefiction1]

It would appear that Pope Innocent had attempted to correct an error that was creeping into the people, by referencing orthodox practice. It seems, however, that the prevailing spirit is what prevailed, not the thoughts of the Pope. It is only his thoughts about war (crusades) that prevailed, because the people were in the mood for those. Remember the sack of Constantinople? It happened while Innocent III was pope.

The people changed the way they signed themselves, unconsciously, because of major shifts in the collective psychology of their culture. The spirits of the air were gaining significant ground against the power of the Gospel-- at last.

 

[prodromos]

My suspicion now is confirmed. I don't read Latin. Thanks for translating.

I don't read Latin either. Google translate made sense of that portion of the text, but the remainder made no sense to me at all

 

[truefiction1]

I don't read Latin either. Google translate made sense of that portion of the text, but the remainder made no sense to me at all

Oh, cool. Well thanks be for Google translate!

 

[buzuxi02]

Yup, by the way not to de-rail this thread but with all of google's technology, satelite maps and all, why cant they perfect their lousy translator?

 

[truefiction1]

Yup, by the way not to de-rail this thread but with all of google's technology, satelite maps and all, why cant they perfect their lousy translator?

Perhaps they could make good use of some top notch translationists in their translator software R&D department.

 

[Soma Seer]

From Orthodox.net for you.

"The act of "Placing the cross on oneself" is a request for a blessing from God. We make if from right to left to mirror the actions of the priest when he blesses us. The priest, looking at the parishioners, blesses from left to right. Therefore, the parishioners, putting on the sign of the cross on themselves, do it from right to left.

You know, I'd read that explanation on Orthodox.net and somehow managed to miss the part about it being done from right to left in order to mirror the actions of the priest when he blesses us.

Because the Lord separated the sheep from the goats, putting the faithful sheep on His right side, and the goats on the left, the Church always treats the right side as the preferred side. We only cross ourselves with our RIGHT hand. The priest, when blessing a person, first touches or points to their RIGHT side, then their left. Also the censing of the Holy Table in the Altar is always done from the RIGHT side first; censing of the Ikonostasis, the Congregation and of the Church itself always begins with the right side. The priest always gives communion with his RIGHT hand, even if he is left handed. There are other examples of this right side preference.

I've known of the symbolism of the right side vs. the left. Interestingly, I've read the works of a Hindu practitioner (RIP) who also stressed that the right side--symbolically speaking--is considered holy, while the left side is its opposite.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that in the Roman Catholic Church, the faithful crossed themselves from right to left, just as the Orthodox do, until the 15th or 16th century. They must explain why they have changed an ancient and apostolic tradition. We cannot answer as to their motivations.

I think that you've revealed my true question: Why did the RCC revert the order of the sign of the cross? Hmmm... I must delve into that one.

Our fathers, and countless saints crossed themselves from right to left. Ancient icons show Christ or bishops beginning a blessing from right to left. the right side is referred to in a preferential way many times in scripture and our sacred hymns What should we want to change?"

I was raised RC (sort of), so crossing from left to right feels "normal" to me. But, still, I see the point of your question; again, I guess I've some digging to do on the subject.

 

[Soma Seer]

I guess you've gotten your answers, but I just wanted to say - welcome to CF! And welcome to TAW as well. Always nice to get visitors. Feel free to ask away if you had any other questions.

And again, welcome!

I'm not new here. I posed a number of questions on TAW last year, before losing access to the CF due to the site changes. I contacted the powers that be multiple times about not being able to log in using my screen name and password, but never received a reply; so, finally, I decided to "rejoin" using the same screen name, which worked. Crazy, non? Ah, well.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm not new here. I posed a number of questions on TAW last year, before losing access to the CF due to the site changes. I contacted the powers that be multiple times about not being able to log in using my screen name and password, but never received a reply; so, finally, I decided to "rejoin" using the same screen name, which worked. Crazy, non? Ah, well.

Oh, my apologies then. I know several have had trouble with the new software. I'm glad you were able to rejoin us!

 

[dzheremi]

Yup, by the way not to de-rail this thread but with all of google's technology, satelite maps and all, why cant they perfect their lousy translator?

Because translation is a lot more difficult than semi-intelligent word replacement, which is essentially what it does now. It seems like every little while there is a new article in some snobby magazine somewhere about how language-focused technology like online translators are going to make human translators and language teachers obsolete very soon, and yet it never happens. It's sort of like the uncanny valley problem in robotics, I guess (but less creepy; more hilarious/frustrating): No matter how close you may come via technology to the thing you're attempting to reproduce or simulate, there's likely always going to be some minute or not-so-minute aspects of it you're not going to be able to get right, and it only takes a few degrees 'off' for things to go anywhere from slightly to really wrong.

On the subject of the OP: I don't know if it has come up in any of the links given so far (I haven't read them), but one explanation from Eastern Catholics that I remember from an old video I used to have produced by the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Parma (I think it was just called A Brief Introduction to the Eastern Catholic Churches) was that the Latins gradually switched from right-to-left to left-to-right as a result of the people's incorrect mirroring of the priest's blessing. Not sure if that has any historical basis in fact or not (I don't have any reason to doubt it, I've just never seen or heard it anywhere else), but I suppose it's as good as any other. I kind of doubt these somewhat elaborate psychological or heavily culturally-influenced reasons offered so far. We in the Oriental Orthodox Church have always crossed ourselves left-to-right, as far back as any OO has observed a difference between us and the Greeks (EO) that is, and with the possible exception of some RC influence on the Armenians via Cilicia in the Middle Ages thanks to the Crusades (and, one could argue, Armenian influence on the Latins), had mercifully little interaction with Latin Christianity prior to modern era (hence you see the dates of "reunion" with Rome for the Oriental Catholic churches drawn from previously OO people are generally much later than they are for the Eastern Catholic churches drawn from previously EO people, by a difference of two centuries or more for many of them).

 

[Dewi Sant]

re translator - one word, 'idioms'

I understand the right-left in mirror response to the priest (as Christ) is an active taking in of the blessing, making oneself conscious of the direction from whence the blessing comes (subject [us], object [God]).
And so, spontaneous makings of the sign of the cross affirms the eternally abundant blessings of God and our participation in that reality.

I asked my Greek friend why he seems to randomly cross himself at odd moments, he replied "it's free isn't it?".

When making the sign of the cross in times of trouble, one is engaging in the dialogue of all existence, bringing into oneself the eternal vastness of blessing and eschatological reality of the saints. It is alike the receiving of hugs.
The sign of the cross is an act of communication, of communion.
By signing ourselves we strengthen the blessed bond of ourselves to the source of creation. This is why we all face east at church, we are all supplicants before the Almighty and receive from Him the radiance of mercy.


Lord have Mercy.

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

Could someone please explain the reason(s) why the Orthodox Church signs from right to left?

Thank you,

SS

Because it's the correct way to do it

/thread

 

[Soma Seer]

I'm not sure where I read it, but for the difference in directions.. The East was using Greek, where when saying "Holy Spirit", the word for Spirit comes second. The West was using Latin, where the word for Spirit comes first. Both crossing so that when saying "Holy Spirit", you touch over your heart, on the word Spirit.

Now that's an interesting explanation that seems reasonable enough.

 

[Soma Seer]

Here is an Orthodox explanation on why we cross ourselves the way we do:
Why do Orthodox Christians "cross themselves" different than Roman Catholics?

Here is an Orthodox explanation of why Latins cross themselves the way they do:
Why Do the Latins Cross Themselves Backwards?

Very helpful explanations. Thank you. (Sorry for the rabbit emoji; I just discovered the Emoji Nature offerings and have a soft spot for rabbits. Plus, posting a smiley face feels old after awhile.)

 

[Soma Seer]

Oh, my apologies then. I know several have had trouble with the new software. I'm glad you were able to rejoin us!

No apologies necessary. I, too, am glad that I was able to rejoin the site.