Question about the Kaaba

[Montalban]

You merely quoted Genesis. I believe your bible contains other books which can be questioned as 'words of God' and which you have not surfaced anything to suggest otherwise.

Indeed I gave you one single quote.

How many do you need before the statement
"The Bible contains the Word of God" to be true?

It's already true, even if that were the only quote.

You're still fishing around for a rebuttal. Let me know when you actually find one

 

[Montalban]

I can even question Genesis as being the Total word of GOD.

No one here claims it’s the ‘total word of God’ in the sense that it’s all God’s dictation and nothing else.

Does it contain the word of God? Yes. I quote, albeit a single quote, there’s many more in Genesis.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Indeed I gave you one single quote.

How many do you need before the statement
"The Bible contains the Word of God" to be true?

That's the problem - your scripture does not say all the 66 books are the 'words of God'.
What you did was to show it says as such in Genesis, not the whole 66 books.

In fact, I really cannot see how the NT epistles could be God's words, for example.

 

[Islam_mulia]

St. Paul doesn't make a difference between the NT and OT when he defines the Scriptures, all Christian Scriptures are God-Inspired, there is no mechanical revelation as in Islam. You can not grasp this difference, but go ahead contest the Genesis account.

Saul of Tarsus DID NOT have the gospel books or epistles with him. When he mentioned 'Scripture' he was referring to the OT and possible some Jewish apocryphas.

Please do not blur the readers with strong claimes like 'all Scriptures are inspired' bec those words were NEVER applied to the NT.

 

[beamishboy]

care to point them out with correct references please, not slander or lies.
thank you
Peace
yaqovzadeek
aka james the just

OK, I don't pretend that I'm an expert of the Quran just as you guys know nothing about other religions too. But here is something I found on the web by a bunch of sincere ex-Muslims who now feel that Islam is causing too much trouble in the world. Here's the quote:

Quran contains a sprinking of 'scientific' statements, which tried to impress the illiterate reader 1400 years ago. That was the era in which the Sun and the Moon were thought to go around the Earth. Today we know these 'scientific statements' to actually contain wrong science, as well as stuff copied from other religions and scientists of those time. An example is the idea of sperm being generated in the Backbone[Quran 86:6]. This idea was proposed by Greek scientists, and copied by Mohammed. If we had copyright laws 1400 years ago, Mohammed would have been jailed for copyright infringement and there would be no Islam today. Sadly, it was the era in which people buried their infant daughters and thus he took advantage of the fact that people around him were inhuman Arabs with *no* moral sense. Thus, Quran has *little* moral sense, when comparing to universal standards.

If you're interested, here's the link:

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/quran.htm

Someone in another thread gave me the link to this website and I've learnt so much about Islam. Quite shocking facts too!!! But be careful about the videos showing Islamic stoning to death and Islamic amputation by sawing off a hand a foot. I had nightmares from the barbarism of it all. It'll give most of us who know next to nothing about Islam an insight into real Islam, not the whitewashed Islam we get from Muslims in a forum. Let's face it: most of us hardly have any dealings with a Muslim. We only see them in the tube station and we can tell they're Muslims by their dressing. It's so exciting to be provided with an insight into their religion. Go read the website.

 

[Rasta]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

Here is another.

 

[beamishboy]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

Here is another.

My word! There are many articles in your website. Just click on the icon "Index". It's coloured grey so it looks like it's got nothing but it's got loads! Thanks.

But I think I know enough. Any more would be nauseating.

 

[Arthra]

I think those sites.. faithfreedom and apostate are not really impartial and based on independent scholarship. They are not good ways to independently and fairly study a religion...

-Art

 

[beamishboy]

Saul of Tarsus DID NOT have the gospel books or epistles with him. When he mentioned 'Scripture' he was referring to the OT and possible some Jewish apocryphas.

Please do not blur the readers with strong claimes like 'all Scriptures are inspired' bec those words were NEVER applied to the NT.

This thread is more about Islam and so I suggest we turn our attention to the Quran.

Here's the history of the Quran:

Most, if not all Muslims believe that the Qur’an is the final word of Allah, the god of the Arabs. Well, let me start by saying I’ll fully accept that. Please, just tell me which Qur’an is Allah’s final word. My goal in this article is to present to the reader, hopefully a Muslim, the different Qur’ans available out there. My hope is that a good Muslim reader will guide me and show me the light!

When Muhammad died (A. D. 632), his revelations were not collected. Some of his followers tried to collect those known revelations and put them in a codex form. So, we had codices of scholars like Ibn Masud, Abu Bakr, Al-Asha’ri, ..etc. When Islam spread, we had codices in centers like Mecca, Medina, Kufa, Damascus, and Basra. The situation was chaotic because there were literally many Qur’ans. Uthman, bless his heart, tried to fix matters by canonizing the Medina Codex, and destroying all other “Qur’ans”. He sent copies of the one he chose to all places, and ordered the destruction of all other codices. Uthman tried to standardize the consonantal text of the Qur’an.

However, some variant traditions of the consonantal texts survived a few hundred years after that. Another problem was that the letters in the Qur’an were “unpointed”. Many Arabic letters have “points” or “dots” above or below them. For instance a “b” has one dot below it. The same letter is a “t” if it had two dots on top. The same letter is a “th” if it had three dots on top. The situation is similar for many other letters. There were also problems with the short vowels since early Arabic has no sign for short vowels during the time of the Qur’anic collection. Different variant traditions were in development to ascertain how the Qur’an should be pointed and vowelized. In the words of Charles Adams: “ It must be emphasized that far from being a single text passed down inviolate from the time of Uthman’s commission, literally thousands of variant readings of particular verses were known.” [Source: Adams, C. E. “Quran: The Text and Its History.”]

This whole “mess” continued till Ibn Mujahid (died A. D. 935) came along and a definite canonization of consonants and a limit on the variations of vowels was placed. This resulted in the acceptance of seven systems. Each of the seven systems was traced by two different transmitters, providing in all, fourteen readings ! (it is amazing to me that Muslims still talk about “one Qur’an”, whatever that nonsense means):

1. Nafi of Medina (d. A. D. 785)
2. Ibn Kathir of Mecca (d. A. D. 737)
3. Ibn Amir of Damascus (736)
4. Abu Amr of Basra (770)
5. Asim of Kufa (744)
6. Hamza of Kufa (772)
7. Al-Kisai of Kufa (804)

However, other scholars accepted ten readings and others accepted fourteen reading. I won’t go into the details much longer. A note from Charles Adams is appropriate here:
“It is of some importance to call attention to a possible source of misunderstanding with regard to the variant readings of the Quran. The seven [versions] refer to actual differences in the written and oral text, to dictinct versions of Quranic verses, whose differences, though they may not be great, are nonetheless real and substantial.” (bolded part is my emphasis)

What I just discussed is a dilemma to the Muslim. There is not “one Qur’an” at all. In fact, it is a very live possibility that the “real” Qur’an is no longer with us. “. In fact, it is a very strong possibility considering all the mess that the Qur’ans went through.

The article was written by Ibn Kammuna and can be accessed at the website Rasta gave me (hehe):

http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1731

 

[Rasta]

I think those sites.. faithfreedom and apostate are not really impartial and based on independent scholarship. They are not good ways to independently and fairly study a religion...

-Art

I have found that FEW sites that mention religion are impartial.

www.religioustolerance.org is a good one. They just try to be nice to everybody. Sometimes critisizm hurts. It still needs to be said.

 

[beamishboy]

I have found that FEW sites that mention religion are impartial.

www.religioustolerance.org is a good one. They just try to be nice to everybody. Sometimes critisizm hurts. It still needs to be said.

I put the spotlight on the Quran because this thread is about Islam. Islam_mulia was questioning the canonicity of the Bible and I thought he should look at his own backyard before talking about other religions especially since this is a thread on Islam and it'd be inappropriate to move drastically away from the OP. I can go on about how huge chunks of the Quran came directly from the Mishna, O.T., and apocryphal works including many N.T. Apocrypha.

This website quotes extensively from the Quran and the Hadeeth. But it's very long, complete with scholastic references:

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/borrowing.htm

 

[Montalban]

That's the problem - your scripture does not say all the 66 books are the 'words of God'.

The problem is when I quote God in the OT, you still think there's no God's words there.

 

[eternalsleeper]

The K'abaa is a pagan shrine which Muslims worship in Saudi Arabia.

They figure it has something to do with Abraham/Ibrihim.

It has some significance to Judaism as well.

 

[Montalban]

The K'abaa is a pagan shrine which Muslims worship in Saudi Arabia.

They figure it has something to do with Abraham/Ibrihim.

It has some significance to Judaism as well.

Near-by they throw stones at a rock that's supposed to symbolise Satan.

Very pagan-like

 

[beamishboy]

Near-by they throw stones at a rock that's supposed to symbolise Satan.

Very pagan-like

Goodness me! Stone throwing again? After seeing a video of the Islamic stoning of two women to death as a punishment dished out according to the Quran, I get terrified any time someone mentions the throwing of stones by Muslims. I've been so badly traumatised by the video.

 

[Montalban]

Islam's very big on rocks and stones.

A holy rock they do circuits around (supposedly a meteor in the Kaaba), then throwing stones at a rock.

 

[beamishboy]

Islam's very big on rocks and stones.

A holy rock they do circuits around (supposedly a meteor in the Kaaba), then throwing stones at a rock.

It's all right by me if inanimate objects are all that they throw stones at.

 

[Montalban]

It's all right by me if inanimate objects are all that they throw stones at.

I'm just glad no one said that they've got rocks in their head!

 

[Islam_mulia]

I can go on about how huge chunks of the Quran came directly from the Mishna, O.T., and apocryphal works including many N.T. Apocrypha.

This website quotes extensively from the Quran and the Hadeeth. But it's very long, complete with scholastic references:

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/borrowing.htm

Would you like to cite one example and discuss this in detail with me? Just you and I, can? Please do not just give a link but discuss them, one at a time, so that the readers can see how bright and knowledgeable you are. What say you?

 

[beamishboy]

Would you like to cite one example and discuss this in detail with me? Just you and I, can? Please do not just give a link but discuss them, one at a time, so that the readers can see how bright and knowledgeable you are. What say you?

Hehehe, it's very tempting to let others see "how bright and knowledgeable" I am. But perhaps, it's best to wait until I'm a bigger boy. Hehe.

You should take on some of the adults eg. there is this expert on the Quran and the Arabian language like a chap called applepie in this forum. He'll give you a run for your money.