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Question about Preachers and Creationism defenders?

PrincetonGuy

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According to a literal interpretation of the Masoretic Hebrew text, the flood occurred in the year 2349 B.C. However, we know for certain the geography and the climate on much of the earth going back thousands of years before 2349 B.C. For example, dendrochronological and climatological studies in the White Mountains of California at elevations between 10,000 and 11,000 feet have conclusively proven that the climate there has not changed greatly during the past 8,900 years and that the Pinus longaeva trees growing in that area have been growing there without interruption from a flood or other catastrophic events during that entire time.
 
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Alithis

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We find in the New Testament three places where the story of Noah and the ark is used to teach a lesson, and yet we know for certain that such a flood did not occur. Therefore, the story is an epic tale, a saga, a legend, or a myth. It is written in the very same genre as the rest of Genesis 1-11, and the only sustainable conclusion is that all of Genesis 1-11 is a series of epic tales, sagas, legends, or myths.

The people as CMI are very much aware of the indescribably massive amount of evidence that the flood did not occur, but they insist upon teaching what is easily proven to be false. They are also very much aware of the damage that they are causing to the Christian faith by commingling the gospel with young-earth anti-evolution propaganda, but they keep on doing it!

Oh wel thats that. If the rod is broken in one place its a broken rod. No good to me. If i cant trust Gods version then i cant trust God..
thanks for i shall now perhaps cast of all faith..
thats on your head..
 
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OzSpen

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According to a literal interpretation of the Masoretic Hebrew text, the flood occurred in the year 2349 B.C. However, we know for certain the geography and the climate on much of the earth going back thousands of years before 2349 B.C. For example, dendrochronological and climatological studies in the White Mountains of California at elevations between 10,000 and 11,000 feet have conclusively proven that the climate there has not changed greatly during the past 8,900 years and that the Pinus longaeva trees growing in that area have been growing there without interruption from a flood or other catastrophic events during that entire time.

Why are you refusing to deal with my response at #60? You answer as though I haven't responded to you. Why are you doing this? When you run off with your own topic and not deal with the content of my reply to you at #60, you commit a red herring fallacy. We can't have a logical discussion when you do this.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Oh wel thats that. If the rod is broken in one place its a broken rod. No good to me. If i cant trust Gods version then i cant trust God..
thanks for i shall now perhaps cast of all faith..
thats on your head..

How do you know the rod is broken? Is that determined by the evolutionist or exegete? Or is it the description of another 'rod' and that rod is a rotten piece of timber with no substantive help for building anything?
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Why are you thinking as a naturalist and not as a Hebrew exegete of Scripture? Exegesis of the text gives meaning and not your presuppositional, evolutionary, mythological material. When will you allow the text to speak for itself?

I have presented evidence to contradict your view of CMI and their understanding of the universal flood in Noah's time. Why aren't you listening?

The “evidence” that was presented by providing links to CMI articles was their thinking as a pre-1800’s naturalists and had absolutely nothing to do with exegesis of the Hebrew Text. Moreover, exegesis of any text includes determining the genre of the literature that includes the text.

You eliminate one critical person - the almighty Lord God of the supernatural. The flood in Noah's time was a supernatural event (see Gen 7:11-12, 19) and God's actions determined who survived and how they then lived on the earth.

The flood, as described, was a supernatural event only in the sense that God caused it to happen. A literal interpretation does not allow for miracles because the whole point of the narrative is that through the natural, physical means of an ark built by Noah and his family, mankind and all the kinds of land animals were saved from the floodwaters. How about the fish? How about the plants? They would have died, according to a literal interpretation of Genesis 6-8. Therefore, we are left with the following choices: a collection of sagas, legends or myths, or a collection of epic tales.

Naturalism and historical critical assumptions seem to be dominating what you require of the flood in Noah's time. I don't buy into it. I'm sticking with exegesis of the text and that provides information that contradicts what you are presenting.

Exegesis does not ignore pertinent facts—it takes them all into consideration and gives us an explanation that is in harmony with all of the facts—textual, linguistic, historical, cultural, literary, and scientific, etc. Ignoring the facts that one may not like is not exegesis—it is nothing but messing around with the Bible.
 
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OzSpen

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PrincetonGuy,

You wrote,
The “evidence” that was presented by providing links to CMI articles was their thinking as a pre-1800’s naturalists and had absolutely nothing to do with exegesis of the Hebrew Text. Moreover, exegesis of any text includes determining the genre of the literature that includes the text.
This is false. This is what you stated at #55:
The people as CMI are very much aware of the indescribably massive amount of evidence that the flood did not occur, but they insist upon teaching what is easily proven to be false.
You are caught out again in your inconsistency.

The flood, as described, was a supernatural event only in the sense that God caused it to happen. A literal interpretation does not allow for miracles because the whole point of the narrative is that through the natural, physical means of an ark built by Noah and his family, mankind and all the kinds of land animals were saved from the floodwaters. How about the fish? How about the plants? They would have died, according to a literal interpretation of Genesis 6-8. Therefore, we are left with the following choices: a collection of sagas, legends or myths, or a collection of epic tales.
False again. The supernatural nature of the flood was that:

1. God spoke to Noah about what to do in building the ark and how many animals and people to bring onto the ark (Gen 6:13ff).

2. That 'all the fountains of the great deep burst forth and the windows of the heavens were opened' (Gen 7:11)

3. Rain fell on the earth for 40 days and 40 nights and 'all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered'. And these highest of mountains were covered by 15 cubits, i.e 22.5 feet (Gen 7:12, 19).

4. All flesh on the earth died (Gen 7:21).

It's too late to convince me that this was not a supernatural event. And CMI has presented evidence to demonstrate that there are fish fossils in the desert and on the high mountains to demonstrate that the flood happened and reached all over the world and even to high mountains.

Now for your version of exegesis:
Exegesis does not ignore pertinent facts—it takes them all into consideration and gives us an explanation that is in harmony with all of the facts—textual, linguistic, historical, cultural, literary, and scientific, etc. Ignoring the facts that one may not like is not exegesis—it is nothing but messing around with the Bible.
Of course exegesis deals with textual, linguistic, historical and the cultural. BUT ...exegesis of the biblical text NEVER imposes your kind of evolutionary biological information on the text. Exegesis does not deal with your understanding of science unless you can find the mention of CO2, He, Mg, transition species of macroevolution, etc in the text. The Bible simply does not deal with contemporary language of chemistry, physics, biology, zoology, etc.

Berkeley Mickelsen's definition of exegesis is (he was a professor of NT interpretation at Bethel Theological Seminary, St Paul MN):
Everyone who interprets a passage of the Bible stands in a present time while he examines a document that comes from a past time. He must discover what each statement meant to the original speaker or writer, and to the original hearers or readers, in their own present time' (Mickelsen 1963:55, emphasis in original).
It is the purpose of the exegete to discover the meaning to the original writer and readers.

It is the purpose of the expositor to
'convey this message [of the exegete] to his contemporaries. He must see what meaning these statements [of the original writer] had in the past, but he must also show what is their meaning for himself and for those to whom he conveys these ideas' (Mickelsen 1963:55).
You seem to be confusing exegesis with eisegesis in imposing your evolutionary biology and mythological interpretation on the text of Genesis. And you don't seem to be listening to what the text of Genesis is saying about the Noahic flood.

Works consulted
Mickelsen, A B 1963. Interpreting the Bible. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
 
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Alithis

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How do you know the rod is broken? Is that determined by the evolutionist or exegete? Or is it the description of another 'rod' and that rod is a rotten piece of timber with no substantive help for building anything?

sorry bro ,but... way to totally bury the point .
 
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PrincetonGuy

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PrincetonGuy,

You wrote,
This is false. This is what you stated at #55:
You are caught out again in your inconsistency.

?

False again. The supernatural nature of the flood was that:

1. God spoke to Noah about what to do in building the ark and how many animals and people to bring onto the ark (Gen 6:13ff).

2. That 'all the fountains of the great deep burst forth and the windows of the heavens were opened' (Gen 7:11)

3. Rain fell on the earth for 40 days and 40 nights and 'all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered'. And these highest of mountains were covered by 15 cubits, i.e 22.5 feet (Gen 7:12, 19).

4. All flesh on the earth died (Gen 7:21).

It's too late to convince me that this was not a supernatural event.

God saved Noah, his family, and the animals in a big boat, but saved the fish and plants by the working of miracles? Where does anyone find that it a literal interpretation of Genesis 1-11?

And CMI has presented evidence to demonstrate that there are fish fossils in the desert and on the high mountains to demonstrate that the flood happened and reached all over the world and even to high mountains.

The only evidence that they have presented is that they are either ridiculously ignorant of biology and geology, or they are willfully and deliberately misrepresenting the truth.

Now for your version of exegesis:

Of course exegesis deals with textual, linguistic, historical and the cultural. BUT ...exegesis of the biblical text NEVER imposes your kind of evolutionary biological information on the text. Exegesis does not deal with your understanding of science unless you can find the mention of CO2, He, Mg, transition species of macroevolution, etc in the text. The Bible simply does not deal with contemporary language of chemistry, physics, biology, zoology, etc.

Berkeley Mickelsen's definition of exegesis is (he was a professor of NT interpretation at Bethel Theological Seminary, St Paul MN):
It is the purpose of the exegete to discover the meaning to the original writer and readers.

You seem to be confusing exegesis with eisegesis in imposing your evolutionary biology and mythological interpretation on the text of Genesis. And you don't seem to be listening to what the text of Genesis is saying about the Noahic flood.

Mickelsen's definition of exegesis is incorrect. The Merriam Webster online dictionary gives us the correct definition.

Definition of EXEGESIS
: EXPOSITION, EXPLANATION; especially : an explanation or critical interpretation of a text

Moreover, on page 57 of the same book, Michelson writes, “The honest and careful interpreter is always prepared to alter his ideas when he sees that extraneous or wrong assumptions have colored his original impression.” The literal interpretation of genesis 1-11 is based upon the wrong assumption that all of the Hextateuch is written in the genre of literature known as the historical narrative—and that it is an accurate account of historic events. However, literary analysis has proven that Genesis 1-11 is NOT written in that genre of literature—and the sciences of biology and geology have conclusively and incontrovertibly proven that Genesis 6-8 is NOT an accurate account of historic events.

Michelson is correct, however, in stressing that the interpreter should attempt to “discover what each statement meant to the original speaker or writer, and to the original hearers or readers, in their own present time”. However, when interpreting heavily redacted epic tales, the original sources and times are unknown, as are also the identity and times of the original hearers or readers. Therefore, exegesis of Genesis 1-11 is especially difficult and all known pertinent facts must be considered. Very briefly stated, my position is that literary analysis has proven that Genesis 1-11 is NOT written in the genre of literature known as the historic narrative, and that the sciences of biology and geology have conclusively and incontrovertibly proven that Genesis 6-8 is NOT an accurate account of historic events.

I have in my home library approximately 685 exegetical commentaries on the individual books of the Bible, and many more of them at work—and I know what biblical exegesis is. (I also have in my home library approximately 170 expositional commentaries on the individual books of the Bible).

However, that is not the issue here—the issue here is whether or not Genesis 1-11 is an accurate account of historic events, and my position is that literary analysis has proven that Genesis 1-11 is NOT written in the genre of literature known as the historic narrative, and that the sciences of biology and geology have conclusively and incontrovertibly proven that Genesis 6-8 is NOT an accurate account of historic events. The only evidence that CMI has presented is that they are either ridiculously ignorant of biology and geology, or they are willfully and deliberately misrepresenting the truth.
 
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OzSpen

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PG,

I have in my home library approximately 685 exegetical commentaries on the individual books of the Bible, and many more of them at work—and I know what biblical exegesis is. (I also have in my home library approximately 170 expositional commentaries on the individual books of the Bible).
With this kind of statement, you committed the appeal to popularity logical fallacy. We cannot have a logical discussion when you do this. I have drawn your attention to the logical fallacies you commit, but you continue to use them. You also have committed the appeal to authority fallacy.

There are millions of atheists around the world. That does not prove that God does not exist, any more than your hundreds of commentaries demonstrate the evolutionary biological, mythological worldview of the Book of Genesis that you are pushing in this thread.

Since we can no longer have a logical conversation because of your use of logical fallacies, I am saying goodbye from this thread.

Oz
 
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