Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[bbbbbbb]

Those who sat on the seat of Moses in the OT, although they were overthrown. And you don't need "demi" you can just say "god." Furthermore, Moses, the Apostles, and the thief on the cross, etc.

Of course, given that common does not entail universal, I need no actual example.

None of these were demi-gods nor gods. None had divine attributes such as immutability, omniscience, omnipotence, or omnipresence either before or after their physical demise.

 

[Cappadocious]

None of these were demi-gods nor gods. None had divine attributes such as immutability, omniscience, omnipotence, or omnipresence either before or after their physical demise.

1. According to the Scriptures they are gods.

2. the apostles had the divine attributes of authority/exousia, love, patience, forbearance, mercy, etc. Which are the chief divine attributes. Since they can have the greater attributes why object to them participating in the lesser? They don't need the attribute in its natural totality to participate in it, either.

 

[bbbbbbb]

1. According to the Scriptures they are gods.

2. the apostles had the divine attributes of authority/exousia, love, patience, forbearance, mercy, etc. Which are the chief divine attributes. Since they can have the greater attributes why object to them participating in the lesser? They don't need the attribute in its natural totality to participate in it, either.

No where in the Bible does it state that there is any God, but God. To be certain, there are gods of mankind, but they are not gods at all. Only God is worthy of worship, praise, and everlasting honor. He is a jealous God who does not smile on the vain worship of mankind to those who are not gods, but merely idols.

 

[Cappadocious]

To be certain, there are gods of mankind, but they are not gods at all.

Jesus says the opposite.

 

[Cis.jd]

No, in order for you to prove your point of multi-presence you much be in at least two places simultaneously in your actual physical body. Otherwise, you must admit the physical multi-presence is not a human characteristic much less a natural characteristic of any created thing.

Who argued that saints are in multi-places in their physical body? I never heard that in catholic doctrine. I think it has been rather clear that no body has ever said the saints in heaven have a "physical body" but a spiritual one.

I hope you see the point i'm trying to get at with the Skype reference. You know that us physical people are able to communicate (whether through sight or hearing) with many different people around the world at the same time --in reliance to our technology. This is an ability we are able to have by something we created, in our own limited world. Now take this into a much higher world, a world in where God is the main provider. Saints don't get the ability to hear our prayers and the prayers of millions around the world from their own power or some new attribute that comes in when the person reaches eternal life but through the power of the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ. You were already given a verse of the inhabitants in heaven being aware of a sinners repentance on earth already.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus says the opposite.

He was, of course, quoting Psalm 82.

82 God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2 How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7 “Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Who argued that saints are in multi-places in their physical body? I never heard that in catholic doctrine. I think it has been rather clear that no body has ever said the saints in heaven have a "physical body" but a spiritual one.

I hope you see the point i'm trying to get at with the Skype reference. You know that us physical people are able to communicate (whether through sight or hearing) with many different people around the world at the same time --in reliance to our technology. This is an ability we are able to have by something we created, in our own limited world. Now take this into a much higher world, a world in where God is the main provider. Saints don't get the ability to hear our prayers and the prayers of millions around the world from their own power or some new attribute that comes in when the person reaches eternal life but through the power of the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ. You were already given a verse of the inhabitants in heaven being aware of a sinners repentance on earth already.

Yes, I see we are in agreement. Catholic Saints are demi-gods, having attributes assigned to God.

 

[Cis.jd]

Yes, I see we are in agreement. Catholic Saints are demi-gods, having attributes assigned to God.

In reliance to God, not assigned. Humans are in short "demi-gods", just take a look at science and the things we managed to do through it. We are able to read the universe we are in and even cure certain diseases. We are blessed and created with this intellect, this was all from God. And we are all from a limited world. How come we become so limited once we leave this world? No one believes that saints are physically in different places all at once, the belief is that they are able to hear our prayers in heaven. In one place. It's a spiritual connection given through the Holy Spirit because of the body of Christ. In short, it is rather highly exaggerate how you see the power of praying for each other to be some divine attribute.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In reliance to God, not assigned. Humans are in short "demi-gods", just take a look at science and the things we managed to do through it. We are able to read the universe we are in and even cure certain diseases. We are blessed and created with this intellect, this was all from God. And we are all from a limited world. How come we become so limited once we leave this world? No one believes that saints are physically in different places all at once, the belief is that they are able to hear our prayers in heaven. In one place. It's a spiritual connection given through the Holy Spirit because of the body of Christ. In short, it is rather highly exaggerate how you see the power of praying for each other to be some divine attribute.

I see that you have a very flexible definition of demi-god. To refresh your memory here is the dictionary definition -

a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.

I don't know about you, but I do know that my parents were both mortal, having died (something that gods and demigods can't do) and that I have not been raised to divine rank. Thus, I am an exception to your univeralism.

 

[Cappadocious]

He was, of course, quoting Psalm 82.

82 God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2 How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7 “Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations.

Your point?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Your point?

My point is, of course, that Jesus assuredly did not believe in the existence of other gods, except in the sense of human judges who would surely die, being mortal.

 

[Cappadocious]

My point is, of course, that Jesus assuredly did not believe in the existence of other gods, except in the sense of human judges who would surely die, being mortal.

Or you have a definition of "god" which is incompatible with the bible, and it's coloring your readings.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Or you have a definition of "god" which is incompatible with the bible, and it's coloring your readings.

As you saw in Psalm 82 the definition is quite precise - human judges that shall die as all men do.

 

[Cappadocious]

As you saw in Psalm 82 the definition is quite precise - human judges that shall die as all men do.

When did it say the judges were human? Or, were human AND not gods?

 

[bbbbbbb]

When did it say the judges were human? Or, were human AND not gods?

82 God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2 How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

5 They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7 “Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations.

Verse 1 - He Judges in the midst of the rulers.

In some translations the word is translated as "gods" rather than "rulers". Both are valid translations.

Verse 6 - O said, "You are gods and ll of you are sons of the Most High.

God is speaking in verse six and addressing the same individuals as in the first verse.

In verse 7 God describes the fate of these false rulers/gods.

 

[Cappadocious]

In some translations the word is translated as "gods" rather than "rulers". Both are valid translations.

No, it straight up says gods.

Verse 6 - O said, "You are gods and ll of you are sons of the Most High.

God is speaking in verse six and addressing the same individuals as in the first verse.

In verse 7 God describes the fate of these false rulers/gods.

He never says they are false, and he never says they are humans AND not gods.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No, it straight up says gods.


He never says they are false, and he never says they are humans AND not gods.

6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7 “Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”

 

[Cappadocious]

6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7 “Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”

It does not say: "You will die because you are mere men and not gods." It says that they are gods who will die like men die.

Your eisegesis does not stand.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It does not say: "You will die because you are mere men and not gods." It says that they are gods who will die like men die.

Your eisegesis does not stand.

Are gods mortal or immortal?

 

[Cappadocious]

Are gods mortal or immortal?

God is immortal, some gods are immortal by his good pleasure, but not all are immortal.