Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[bbbbbbb]

1. People die, but this does not turn them into dead people. Rather they are translated from death to life. Not one dead remains in the tomb.

2. As to David and his son, this was before Christ defeated death.

Your dead reformed religion is no match for the most high Lord of hosts, the living God of Israel. Your false god cowers and is broken beneath the might of Christ's Resurrection.

1. The resurrection has not yet happened for the Church. All those who have died in Christ are still physically dead and you and I cannot converse with them any more than we can converse with a stone.

 

[Cappadocious]

1. The resurrection has not yet happened for the Church. All those who have died in Christ are still physically dead and you and I cannot converse with them any more than we can converse with a stone.

The "when" comes with power on this age.

 

[Cis.jd]

Again, the way the prayers got in their hands is not relevant because we are still not told to pray to them. I rest my case.

It's relevant because it's a clue-in. In here you build the logic, you are saying we are not told to pray to them but here in this verse it shows them holding it. So logic says, based on how the verse describes it, and the past verses that talk about Christians praying for each other and the verses that state that the spirit in heaven isn't regarded as dead therefore it concludes that the only way they got those prayers is because they were approached to first for the sake of delivering it.

Logic goes, the only way these saints in heaven managed to hold these prayers in their bowls is because it was given to them. So it's relevant, stop blocking your common sense because you have no way to argue back.

Where does the text say these elders are interceding for you? From what I read, they are only messengers, relaying to God what you prayed to him.

The fact that they are holding prayers that are traveling to God. You already answered it, you read that they are only messengers, relaying to God what you prayed to him.. that is intercession.

The fact that ‘they are given a human term in a setting that is heaven while the other heavenly beings are given their actual term’ does not automatically mean that they are saints.

So then what are they? All servants of God are regarded as saints, and here you are again doing nothing but statements with out giving out any reason behind it.

Not the same people. There are many more than 24 saints in Heaven, and yet only 24 do this? Weird… Perhaps they're not even saints, since they are not called saints.

Doesn't matter if there are more than 24, you still see the process of intercession of people in heaven.

Where does the Bible say that only humans and angels can be in Heaven with God?

Does the Bible say anything else? I hope you won't suggest the elders are animals.

Still doesn't say we can pray to them. The text nowhere says that these prayers were given directly to them by us, or that these are the prayers we made to them. Nowhere does it say that these are the same prayers you pray to your saints.

Then how did they manage to hold it? Oh, i see.. when it comes to explaining the logic holes in your argument, it's now irrelevant.

That does not answer my question. How can you know for sure that they can know what we have prayed to God?

Because again how did they get it. Golden bowls carrying incense which are the prayers of the saints/gods people.. why are they holding it if they don't know what's in it? Do you apply any form of sense in your replies?

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

You can see in this verse that they are very much aware of what happens on earth. How would they know about a sinner who has repented?

No, you are poorly reasoning out of it, insisting for no reason that these elders are saints, insisting for no reason that these are the same prayers you pray to them, insisting for no reason that their number is irrelevant, and insisting for no reason that, in order for these prayers to get to God, you have to pray to the saints directly, so that God will not play boomerang with the prayers. You are adding to the text what it never says. What we can know for sure is that it is biblically never suggested that we can or should pray to saints.

I am giving reasons and you are just giving statements. You are throwing everything you can but fail to even explain who are these elders and why/how they are holding the prayers? You are just going "no.. they are not.. no.. that's irrelevant" but no where do you even make any case as to who they actually are and how they are actually doing what they are doing, nowhere. You have no logical reasoning nor any valid answer to come up with to show how I am wrong with these verse all you can do is make empty statements.

What is a Christian in the academical sense? Is it the same as a true Christian? Where does it say that? Where does the Bible say that you need to accept the Trinity to be a Christian and go to Heaven?

Meaning the standard definition of a religious belief. All religions are defined on the elements they believe in, Islam believes in Allah and the prophet Mohammad... Christianity is a religion in where people believe God manifested in the Flesh as Jesus, and is Trinity in being. You trying to put this on the topic of salvation shows you really have bad reading comprehension and this is telling me that you are Keltoi alt. The only poster i know who can't make any rationalized arguments or in context replies in this forum .

You keep bringing up something that has nothing to do with the issue at hand: spiritual life. Again, that is irrelevant here. I rest my case.

It's not irrelevant, you are replying very unintelligently now. Spiritual life is a very big deal in this argument because it is the basis of what the practice of asking Saints in heaven to pray is based on.

In that verse, Paul asks the readers to pray for him. Where does he ask them to pray to him?

Unintelligent reply yet again. You are keltoi and you are blocked. I don't reply to people who f argue with empty statements just to waste my time, and respond to far off contexts and bad comprehension to my posts.

 

[Cis.jd]

There is a vast difference between a god (demi- or otherwise) and angels. Angels are not omnipresent or omniscient nor do they partake of any of the unique attributes of divinity such as these. Demigod, OTOH, do possess some of the divine attributes. In the case of your Saints, they must be omnipresent and omniscient in order to hear and respond to all the prayers addressed simultaneously to them.

Dude, think of this way. Us humans can actually listen,hear,see various things from around the world, in multiple ways, and in seconds just from the technology we managed to build. If humans on earth are able to give themselves the ability to know, hear, etc etc in different parts of the world in multiple ways just by relying on themselves, then what more for the people in heaven who now have instant reliability to God?

You guys believe the demons have this capability in some way. How else can you teach that Satan causes man to sin, when there are billions of people around the world through out time. If he is not able to tempt all of them, then he isn't man's actual problem. But for some reason he is the one leading all man astray, how come he has this ability yet people of God are that limited that they can't even pray for others on earth?


You can read it in Luke 15:7 that they are able to know what goes on here.

 

[Cis.jd]

The "when" comes with power on this age.

From his last post before this, I think he is one of those christians who believe that the resurrection of the dead happens only in the Second Coming.

There are some protestants who believe that the dead will not rise (spiritually included) until the Second coming of Jesus... I may be wrong on how i understood his beliefs, but if that is where his argument is based on then there is really nothing to argue about, his view on it is respected due to the differences we believe in regards to when eternal life happens.

 

[prodromos]

1. The resurrection has not yet happened for the Church. All those who have died in Christ are still physically dead and you and I cannot converse with them any more than we can converse with a stone.

So what do you make of this passage in Matthew 27?

And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

 

[bbbbbbb]

Dude, think of this way. Us humans can actually listen,hear,see various things from around the world, in multiple ways, and in seconds just from the technology we managed to build. If humans on earth are able to give themselves the ability to know, hear, etc etc in different parts of the world in multiple ways just by relying on themselves, then what more for the people in heaven who now have instant reliability to God?

You guys believe the demons have this capability in some way. How else can you teach that Satan causes man to sin, when there are billions of people around the world through out time. If he is not able to tempt all of them, then he isn't man's actual problem. But for some reason he is the one leading all man astray, how come he has this ability yet people of God are that limited that they can't even pray for others on earth?

You can read it in Luke 15:7 that they are able to know what goes on here.

I am unsure as to who "you guys" are. Perhaps you could be more specific. I, myself, have never made any such claims concerning demons or Satan.

We are discussing deceased Christians, not angels, demons, or Satan, so please stay on topic.

I am unable to simultanteously comprehend three conversations in the same room, much less tens of thousands around the world, so it is still impossible for any human to do so. Now, if you up the human to being a demi-god, then I suppose almost anything might be possible, except having all of the attributes of a god.

 

[Cappadocious]

I am unable to simultanteously comprehend three conversations in the same room, much less tens of thousands around the world, so it is still impossible for any human to do so.

So you think if you can't do something, it is impossible for humans to do that thing.

Around these parts we call that pride.

 

[Cappadocious]

Now, if you up the human to being a demi-god, then I suppose almost anything might be possible, except having all of the attributes of a god.

Even though I do think we are talking about divinity, what makes you think that multi-location/multi-presence is a divine attribute? Remember we are not talking about omnipresence; we are talking only about multi-presence.

 

[bbbbbbb]

From his last post before this, I think he is one of those christians who believe that the resurrection of the dead happens only in the Second Coming.

There are some protestants who believe that the dead will not rise (spiritually included) until the Second coming of Jesus... I may be wrong on how i understood his beliefs, but if that is where his argument is based on then there is really nothing to argue about, his view on it is respected due to the differences we believe in regards to when eternal life happens.

Paul made it explicitly clear in I Corinthians 15 that the resurrection of the dead is future

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is also this from I Thessalonians 4


13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

And this from II Thessalonians 2

2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So what do you make of this passage in Matthew 27?

And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

That there were resurrections in the Bible is without doubt. We not only have this passage, but also John 11 with the resurrection of Lazarus and also the widow of Nain's son. These were particular resurrections and are not the same as the general resurrection of all humanity. The resurrection of these individuals was not followed by ascension into heaven and, given the fact, that none of these individuals is still alive I think we can safely say that they did subsequently die and their bodies are now awaiting the final resurrection.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So you think if you can't do something, it is impossible for humans to do that thing.

Around these parts we call that pride.

Perhaps you do. The fact that I, as a man, cannot bear a child is a statement of fact, not pride. If I were to think that if I could bear a child, would probably be called delusion or insanity no matter how much I wished to believe it to be so. Like it or not, there are an enormous number of things humans are incapable of doing, no matter how much they might wish to do them.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Even though I do think we are talking about divinity, what makes you think that multi-location/multi-presence is a divine attribute? Remember we are not talking about omnipresence; we are talking only about multi-presence.

It is assuredly a super-human attribute to be in more than one place at the same time. It is an attribute of being a god. There are gods who possess that very attribute, as in the pantheon of Hinduism. It is not a human attribute as humans a limited to being in one place at one time.

 

[Cappadocious]

If I were to think that if I could bear a child, would probably be called delusion or insanity no matter how much I wished to believe it to be so.

Oh, we could rig that up with today's science.

 

[Cappadocious]

It is assuredly a super-human attribute to be in more than one place at the same time.

Atypical, yes. Superhuman? yet to be proven.

It is an attribute of being a god.

That doesn't follow.

There are gods who possess that very attribute, as in the pantheon of Hinduism.

There are also bird gods in the Egyptian pantheons. Does that make bird-likeness a superhuman divine attribute?

 

[prodromos]

The resurrection of these individuals was not followed by ascension into heaven

Your assumption.

and, given the fact, that none of these individuals is still alive

Another assumption.

I think we can safely say that they did subsequently die and their bodies are now awaiting the final resurrection.

The experience of the Church over the last 2000 years says they are very much alive.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

It's relevant because it's a clue-in. In here you build the logic, you are saying we are not told to pray to them but here in this verse it shows them holding it. So logic says, based on how the verse describes it, and the past verses that talk about Christians praying for each other and the verses that state that the spirit in heaven isn't regarded as dead therefore it concludes that the only way they got those prayers is because they were approached to first for the sake of delivering it.

I rest my case.

Logic goes, the only way these saints in heaven managed to hold these prayers in their bowls is because it was given to them. So it's relevant, stop blocking your common sense because you have no way to argue back.

If I ask my father to go downstairs to check the mailbox and bring me back any letters for me, can you say that the letters were ‘given to him’? Were they not sent to me? Am I ‘playing boomerang’ with the letters? Did the sender actually send those letters to my father, so he would them send them to me? Of course not! I just asked my father to go and get them, but the letters were still sent to me. Whether it was my father, my mother, my sister or myself who went to get them is irrelevant for the sender.

Suppose that, for some reason, I would tell my sender that it had been my father who had brought me the letters from the mailbox. Would that change, in any way, the way that he would send me more letters in the future? Should he think, ‘Hmm… If his father is getting all the letters for The Portuguese Baptist, then perhaps I should send all my future letters directly to his father, so that TPB will not have to “play boomerang” with them’? Of course not! He should still send them to me directly. It is irrelevant who goes to get them.

The fact that they are holding prayers that are traveling to God. You already answered it, you read that they are only messengers, relaying to God what you prayed to him.. that is intercession.

There is a difference between being an intercessor and being a messenger. An intercessor agrees with the request and adds to the original requester as those who corroborate it and request the same thing; a messenger merely transmits another person's request, not necessarily agreeing with it. For example, if I ask you to, on my behalf, ask Cappadocious to give me $10, and you approach him and say, ‘The Portuguese Baptist has asked me to ask you to give him $10’, you are simply a messenger; if I ask you the same, but you approach him and say instead, ‘The Portuguese Baptist has asked me to ask you to give him $10, and I agree that you should give him, so I am asking you the same’, you are both a messenger and an intercessor; if we both go together and approach him and ask him to give me $10, you are simply an intercessor. That verse shows the elders as messengers, not as intercessors.

So then what are they?

So, since you cannot think about anything else that they can be, they have to be saints? Is that how you function? The only real possibilities are the ones you consider? The ‘I do not know’ possibility does not exist for you?

All servants of God are regarded as saints, and here you are again doing nothing but statements with out giving out any reason behind it.

Again, where does the Bible say that?

Doesn't matter if there are more than 24, you still see the process of intercession of people in heaven.

I have answered above.

Does the Bible say anything else? I hope you won't suggest the elders are animals.

That was not my question. The Bible says angels and saints can be in Heaven, but where does it say that only angels and saints can be there? That is the fallacy of the argument from silence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence).

Then how did they manage to hold it? Oh, i see.. when it comes to explaining the logic holes in your argument, it's now irrelevant.

I have answered above.

Because again how did they get it. Golden bowls carrying incense which are the prayers of the saints/gods people.. why are they holding it if they don't know what's in it? Do you apply any form of sense in your replies?

If I ask you to give Cappadocious a flash drive which contains a document which I want him to read, you will not know what document it is or what it contains until you put it in a computer that can read the flash drive. If you do not place it in any computer whilst the flash drive is in your possession, you will never know what it was that you have handed to Cappadocious on my behalf.

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

You can see in this verse that they are very much aware of what happens on earth. How would they know about a sinner who has repented?

Therefore — your logic goes —, if they can know about one thing that happens on Earth, they can know about everything that happens on Earth, and thus also our prayers. That, too, is a fallacy: the fallacy of the faulty generalisation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization).

I am giving reasons and you are just giving statements. You are throwing everything you can but fail to even explain who are these elders and why/how they are holding the prayers? You are just going "no.. they are not.. no.. that's irrelevant" but no where do you even make any case as to who they actually are and how they are actually doing what they are doing, nowhere. You have no logical reasoning nor any valid answer to come up with to show how I am wrong with these verse all you can do is make empty statements.

I rest my case.

Meaning the standard definition of a religious belief. All religions are defined on the elements they believe in, Islam believes in Allah and the prophet Mohammad... Christianity is a religion in where people believe God manifested in the Flesh as Jesus, and is Trinity in being. You trying to put this on the topic of salvation shows you really have bad reading comprehension and this is telling me that you are Keltoi alt. The only poster i know who can't make any rationalized arguments or in context replies in this forum .

The ‘standard definition’ is irrelevant. You said that, since angels believe in the Trinity, and since those who believe in the Trinity are Christians, angels are Christians; and, since Christians are saints, angels are saints. But where does it say that those who believe in the Trinity as Christians? Surely not in the Bible! Acts 11:26 reads, ‘[…] The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.’ It says nothing about angels. Moreover, it says nothing about the Trinity. The aim of the disciples was not to preach the Trinity; it was to preach the salvation that you obtain in Jesus Christ (e.g., Acts 2:14-36; Acts 4:8-12; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 1:3-5).

It's not irrelevant, you are replying very unintelligently now. Spiritual life is a very big deal in this argument because it is the basis of what the practice of asking Saints in heaven to pray is based on.

I rest my case.

Unintelligent reply yet again. You are keltoi and you are blocked. I don't reply to people who f argue with empty statements just to waste my time, and respond to far off contexts and bad comprehension to my posts.

How is that an unintelligent reply? How on Earth are ‘praying for someone’ and ‘praying to someone’ the same thing?

And what is keltoi anyway?

 

[Cis.jd]

I am unsure as to who "you guys" are. Perhaps you could be more specific. I, myself, have never made any such claims concerning demons or Satan.

We are discussing deceased Christians, not angels, demons, or Satan, so please stay on topic.

I am unable to simultanteously comprehend three conversations in the same room, much less tens of thousands around the world, so it is still impossible for any human to do so. Now, if you up the human to being a demi-god, then I suppose almost anything might be possible, except having all of the attributes of a god.

I've been to various protestant churches before, have been a member of about 3 protestant churches. I've seen how every negative thought/feeling is almost equated to the "devil is doing it". This has always been a universal message. A demi-god has limits, therefore your "anything might be possible" doesn't fit .

I've known people who can simultaneously comprehend 3 conversations in the same room. Just because you are limited at something doesn't mean that it is a human inability.

During a time, people couldn't talk to their relatives from the other side of the world with out writing letters and waiting for months for it to reach. Now, people can not only write and send messages in a second to anybody they want around the world, but it is possible to voice/video communicate with more than 20 people at the same time no matter where they are in the world. We managed to do this with our own physical ability in creating technology... So physical-earth people are capable of this, but the people who are in the presence of God and all he gives can't?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Oh, we could rig that up with today's science.

Thus far, it has not happened, so I think your speculation is just that - speculation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Atypical, yes. Superhuman? yet to be proven.

That doesn't follow.

There are also bird gods in the Egyptian pantheons. Does that make bird-likeness a superhuman divine attribute?

The bird-gods of ancient Egypt were considered to be god not because of their avian attributes, but because of non-avian attributes. For example, you can read about Horus here - http://www.ancientegypt.co.uk/gods/explore/main.html