Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[Albion]

That makes sense to me. If God is willing to hear our prayers through Christ, as the Bible frequently states, then why ought one to pray to dead people who might, or might not, be able to convey our prayers to God?

The answer might not be given by advocates here on CF, but the reason is the one that is always taught in their churches when the question is asked--these saints or presumed saints have more "pull" with God, so they are more likely to be able to get us what we ask for than we ourselves can.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The answer might not be given by advocates here on CF, but the reason is the one that is always taught in their churches when the question is asked--these saints or presumed saints have more "pull" with God, so they are more likely to be able to get us what we ask for than we ourselves can.

Thank you. That does make for some peculiar theology IMO. We have, then, God who is more persuaded by human saints than He is by His Own Son.

 

[Albion]

Thank you. That does make for some peculiar theology IMO. We have, then, God who is more persuaded by human saints than He is by His Own Son.

That would seem to be inherent in the practice, yes. In the end, the guiding principle is that God the Father is less willing to hear from sinful mortals, regardless what the Bible says about him waiting to hear from us, either directly or through Jesus, than from those who have already "proven themselves" to him, i.e. saints.

This attitude fits more with the idea of "works righteousness" that some denominations adhere to, rather than to the concept of "Sola Fide" that others profess.

 

[Cis.jd]

Thank you. That does make for some peculiar theology IMO. We have, then, God who is more persuaded by human saints than He is by His Own Son.

Because it's in James 5:16: The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective, it can't be peculiar if it is based on scripture. The Son is a mediator, not an intercessor.

Next, do you ask this yourself when other people in church are praying for you? Because it fits your context, why would God be more persuaded by these church members who are praying for you rather than his own son?

 

[Cappadocious]

the reason is the one that is always taught in their churches when the question is asked

lololol

 

[Rhamiel]

well lots of people have given good reasons for and against this practice
a lot of arguing back and forth

one thing to keep in mind, is just look at this from a utilitarian point of view, people do it because it works
there have been so many Christians who have had lukewarm lives and then after they started praying to saints have grown deeper in faith to Christ
there have been so many people with physical or spiritual wounds who received healing of mind and body after asking the Saints to pray for them

 

[prodromos]

We pray for one another because it is one of the primary ways in which we can obey Christ's command for us to love one another. Where traditional Churches differ from others is we do not see those who have passed on as being any less a part of the body of Christ as we who are still breathing, and it is clearly apparent through the consistent experience of the Church for 2 millenia, that those who have passed on feel the same way. Death does not prevent us from continuing to express our love for one another through our prayers for each other, and judging by the innumerable miracles which have occurred through the prayers of the Saints who have passed on, it is something that God not only accepts but greatly encourages.
Love is also the reason why we continue to pray for our friends and family who have passed on.

 

[Hawkiz]

The answer might not be given by advocates here on CF, but the reason is the one that is always taught in their churches when the question is asked--these saints or presumed saints have more "pull" with God, so they are more likely to be able to get us what we ask for than we ourselves can.

It isn't just a 'presumption'; it is from Scripture. If the prayer of the righteous man availeth much, and those in Heaven are most assuredly righteous (they have, we believe, assumed the full righteousness of Christ after all, by nature of being with Him in Heaven), then why wouldn't one ask for the prayers of those whom we have confidence are in Christ's full righteousness?

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

 

[Albion]

It isn't just a 'presumption'; it is from Scripture. If the prayer of the righteous man availeth much, and those in Heaven are most assuredly righteous....

It's still a presumption, my friend. You are presuming all sorts of things when you switch the concept from one's neighbor to a deceased person. What's more, the verse you are citing certainly has in mind that there are people in this life who are being described when the word "righteous" is used.

 

[Cis.jd]

There is nothing in the Bible that restricts the communion of Christians to only the ones on earth. One of the main components of Christian beliefs is that we are *spiritually* immortal through out time due to Christ. Even the early Anti-Christians such as Lucian mocked this belief "they believe that they are immortal through out time". The Bible clearly puts those in Heaven in the context of those who are alive, and probably even more alive than the physical beings on earth (who are still under sin).

That verse does not limit righteousness to only earth/physical people.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Rev. 8:3-4, Revelation 5:8,

Again, those prove nothing. Saints are not mentioned as people to whom we should address our prayers in those verses.

There weren't any saints (as in people) in heaven during the OT other than angels (which are titled as saints as well), and Elijah (which the jews during those times and today still pray to) because Jesus did not break the curse of sin yet.
But here is OT of praying to Saints (Angels) Ps. 103:20-21; Ps. 148:1-2..
>Yes, i know you went "but he is asking them to praise him... not the same"... i will get there soon.

No, angels are not saints. The Bible never says anything like that. All Christians are saints — not angels.

Purpose? I think privilege is the right word, no one here suggested that Christ's sacrifice was just for the sake of people praying for each other. The purpose of the cross was to save us from spiritual death (the actual death) so in logical format: since Christians are saved from spiritual death they are given the privilege to pray in communion with each other regardless of being on earth or heaven. (No verse states it's only limited to earth, therefore your reply in concerns of the revelation verses is very strawman)

That is not logical format. Physical death still exists. When a saint dies, you cannot remain in contact with him; that is empirically evident. If you could do it, the Bible would say it; therefore, you are the one who still needs to present a verse which shows that you can, and perhaps should, pray to saints in Heaven.

There is a difference between *Mediator* and *Intercessor*. Christ is the one mediator but that doesn't mean Christians can't intercede for each other.

Saints in Heaven cannot intercede for you! Do you not think that God would have told us so if they could? Would God have hidden from his Word such a useful form of praying if it did exist? They probably cannot even hear you from Heaven! Only God is omniscient! How is it intercession if you cannot be sure that they can hear your request?

There are many verses that encourage christians to pray for one another take a look 1 Timothy 2:5 where Paul instructs Christians to pray for one another.. is he violating the mediator rule? No he isn't. If you make an argument such as "well the people in 1 Timothy are alive so only alive christians can" then you have indirectly denied the purpose of Christ's death of the cross which is to give life to all who believes and follows him..

So, by that standard, Paul sent a copy of 1 Timothy to Heaven, so that dead saints could be encouraged to intercede for us.

Again i will restate: you are forced to pull out a verse that shows that physically dead christians can't pray for each other, with out it then you have no back up in whatever self-rationalistic argument/case you want to pull against the Revelation verses.

No, you are the one who has no case if you do not present a verse which shows you can do it. I have shown why you cannot.

Yes, if you actually knew the actual practice of praying to Saints you would understand how this connects. The whole verse is David speaking directly to Angels, you can see it "you, o his angels". Angels are the OT saints... that's why we use Saint as one of the titles of Michael, Gabriel, etc etc..

Do not be ridiculous! Angels are not saints. Where does the Bible say that?

Prayers isn't just asking for assistance in personal matters but also asking in assistance in praising God. If I talk to God and just give him a bunch of praises, isn't that still considered praying? So how is asking Angels to praise God not a form of intercession? Unless you think that just giving praises doesn't count as praying, but praying isn't asking things for yourself.

So — your logic goes —, since one form of praying is permissible, all forms of praying are permissible. And, since you can exhort angels to praise God, you can (somehow) ask saints to tell God about your requests.

Who are these 24 elders in Heaven then other than people? If there is nowhere that states we should talk to the creatures and elders, then how did the prayers end up in the golden bowls they were holding? That doesn't make sense for them to harbor Golden bowls full of prayers and present it towards God if it wasn't given to them. So is God playing boomerang with the prayers - tossing it into those golden bowls and having it being tossed back?

Evidently, God probably charged the elders with collecting everyone's prayers. Yet the point with the verse cannot be that you should pray directly to the elders instead. How they ended up in their hands is irrelevant; God asked you to pray to him, so pray to him.

"they were holding the Golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people". The verse is so clear here, it explains the symbology right at the end. There is only one way those Golden Bowls they are holding is able to contain prayers, and that is if it was given to them for the purpose of it being delivered to God.

Then why not pray to them directly instead of praying to God? Do not be ridiculous!

Why would they encourage praying to the saints in heaven during that time when all of them where still physically alive on earth? They didn't pray to each other because none of them were in Heaven yet. The Apostles never denied that the death of the body was not the actual death, they believed in eternal life granted through Christ.

That is not true. By the time the letters were written, many saints had already died — for example, the thief of the cross, Stephen, and many others unmentioned who had died in the ensuing persecutions. Yet not one time is the idea of praying to them even ever hinted at.

Which of the 3,000-5,000+ Protestants, the ones who were born during 17th century (hundreds of years after the Bible's canonization) because those are the ones who think this is wrong. Even the first Protestant denominations such as Lutherans and Episcopalians believe it...

Those who follow the Bible.

by the way, the Jews also believe that people in heaven can intercede for us, they do it to Elijah. I presented a link to Jewish forum and other sources on it. So really, all the older Judaic Christian groups believe it, include the pre-messianic ones such as Judaism..

(sigh) Look, I really do not care what Jews say. The Bible says nothing, and that is all that matters. Seriously: if I do not believe in Catholics about it, why do you think I would believe in Jews?

you really think it took more than 800+ years for the Bible's laws to be correctly interpreted?

Evidently, it did. The Bible is clear, but the Catholic Church has countless times tampered and twisted the Bible.

 

[Albion]

That verse does not limit righteousness to only earth/physical people.

You missed the point there. It was that the verse speaks of the prayers of a righteous person and that has to mean there are such people on Earth.

If there are others in heaven--as you would contend and I wouldn't deny--that doesn't change the fact that this verse doesn't provide any evidence that praying to the dead is proper. The verse IOW doesn't do anything to counter what I wrote.

 

[Cis.jd]

Again, those prove nothing. Saints are not mentioned as people to whom we should address our prayers in those verses.

It pretty much does, you just don't want to admit it. There is no other logical way for these Elders to be holding the prayers if it wasn't given to them to pass it to God. Later on though, you are trying to shove this fact by claiming that them holding the prayers are of no significant just so you can go with your "it doesn't mean that" statements.

Next, the Saints are not our main recipients... . God is the main recipient and it is to him in where our prayers is addressed, we just look to the people in heaven for intercession with it.

No, angels are not saints. The Bible never says anything like that. All Christians are saints — not angels.

If we go by the definition of Saint, they pretty much are. In the New Testament, the Greek word “hagios” is translated holy or saint.. and since Angels were in the presence of God longer than humans were, and were first witnesses and believers to the existence of the trinity of God then they fit the definition of it.

That is not logical format. Physical death still exists. When a saint dies, you cannot remain in contact with him; that is empirically evident. If you could do it, the Bible would say it; therefore, you are the one who still needs to present a verse which shows that you can, and perhaps should, pray to saints in Heaven.

Physical Death still exists, but spiritual death doesn't. Spiritual death means more than the physical death because once you die in spirit, that is it. I've practically provided verses that you just want to pass off yet fail to give any other logical meaning to show another context to it.

Saints in Heaven cannot intercede for you! Do you not think that God would have told us so if they could? Would God have hidden from his Word such a useful form of praying if it did exist? They probably cannot even hear you from Heaven! Only God is omniscient! How is it intercession if you cannot be sure that they can hear your request?

And he told us so.. whether or not you want to accept Rev and start choosing words you want to be significant, you have yet to show any logical or scriptural explanation as to how these elders and angels managed to get these prayers to present to God. If they can't hear you, how did the golden bowls contain those prayers that eventually travelled to God?

[qupte]So, by that standard, Paul sent a copy of 1 Timothy to Heaven, so that dead saints could be encouraged to intercede for us.[/quote]
No, please reply with taking at least a minute of thought. In this verse Paul instructs and advices Christians to pray to him. Now, your job is to clarify that by showing that there are exemptions or limitations in Christian intercession, such as being limited to only earth beings.

So — your logic goes —, since one form of praying is permissible, all forms of praying are permissible. And, since you can exhort angels to praise God, you can (somehow) ask saints to tell God about your requests.

Why not? Since these prayers are all in the context of giving God the glory, then how is only one side permissible. You see here, that David is speaking in direct to angels (the saints of that time) which indicates that even the old testament followers of God would pray and sing to the saints all for the purpose of giving Glory to God.

“Bless the LORD, you his angels..." (Psalm 103:20-21).

Now check Luke 20:36 where Jesus is answering the Pharisees:
"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection...”

Evidently, God probably charged the elders with collecting everyone's prayers. Yet the point with the verse cannot be that you should pray directly to the elders instead. How they ended up in their hands is irrelevant; God asked you to pray to him, so pray to him.

How they ended up in their hands is significant, you really need to explain how it got there to make your case sensible. You just copped out. God asked that we all pray for and with each other, he never limited the spiritual body from the physical one.

Then why not pray to them directly instead of praying to God? Do not be ridiculous!

We pray directly to God, he is the main recipient But we also realize that our prayers are more powerful when joined with others. The reason why we choose to have our prayers assisted and joined with other christians (both in heaven and on earth) is because Jesus tells us, “Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 18:19).

This can be fired back at you with the question "why ask fellow church members, who's sins you do not know, to pray for you instead of just praying directly to God yourself?

Those who follow the Bible.

What makes your "those who follow the bible" anywhere different from all the 17 century onward christian denominations and cults that claim the same? Mormons claim they follow the Bible, Islam claims they even follow the Bible (the "uncorrupted" one), Iglesia ni Christo claims their theology is based off the bible. How can you make that claim when you are more than hundreds of years after the Bible was canonized and translated?

Look, I really do not care what Jews say. The Bible says nothing, and that is all that matters. Seriously: if I do not believe in Catholics about it, why do you think I would believe in Jews?

Right, because the truth only came out past the 17th century. It took the Holy Spirit more than 1,500 years to speak to people.

Evidently, it did. The Bible is clear, but the Catholic Church has countless times tampered and twisted the Bible.

A Bible that you still use... You sound like a muslim and Jehova's witness now.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Because it's in James 5:16: The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective, it can't be peculiar if it is based on scripture. The Son is a mediator, not an intercessor.

Next, do you ask this yourself when other people in church are praying for you? Because it fits your context, why would God be more persuaded by these church members who are praying for you rather than his own son?

Again, this is very twisted theology based upon some very strange presuppositions, as follow:

1. Dead saints in heaven have become demi-gods with the power of omnipresence and omniscience in order to hear and respond to prayers from their living followers across the earth.
2. Dead saints in heaven are just like people here on earth in that they are willing to pray for strangers - not!
3. Dead saints in heaven have the ear of God whereas Jesus Christ does not because he does not interecede for people on earth - not! (Hebrews 7:23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.)
4. Dead saints in heaven are assigned special areas of expertise in God's Post Office so that folks on earth can have better delivery of particular prayers.

 

[bbbbbbb]

well lots of people have given good reasons for and against this practice
a lot of arguing back and forth

one thing to keep in mind, is just look at this from a utilitarian point of view, people do it because it works
there have been so many Christians who have had lukewarm lives and then after they started praying to saints have grown deeper in faith to Christ
there have been so many people with physical or spiritual wounds who received healing of mind and body after asking the Saints to pray for them

Wow! I never thought you would ever get onto the slippery slope of pragmatism. My Chinese Buddhist friends assert that Buddhism is valid "because it works". My Vietnamese friends who are devotees of ancestor worship also assert that their religion is valid "because it works." I cannot deny that these efforts "work" for them, but I am certainly not in the slightest bit interested in converting to their religions, are you, because "they work"?

 

[bbbbbbb]

We pray for one another because it is one of the primary ways in which we can obey Christ's command for us to love one another. Where traditional Churches differ from others is we do not see those who have passed on as being any less a part of the body of Christ as we who are still breathing, and it is clearly apparent through the consistent experience of the Church for 2 millenia, that those who have passed on feel the same way. Death does not prevent us from continuing to express our love for one another through our prayers for each other, and judging by the innumerable miracles which have occurred through the prayers of the Saints who have passed on, it is something that God not only accepts but greatly encourages.
Love is also the reason why we continue to pray for our friends and family who have passed on.

Actually, if you want to go that route, then you ought to set up an altar in your home to your ancestors and worship them, as do multitudes in Asian countries. They are confounded at the absence of love and respect for ancestors by Christians.

 

[Cis.jd]

Again, this is very twisted theology based upon some very strange presuppositions, as follow:

1. Dead saints in heaven have become demi-gods with the power of omnipresence and omniscience in order to hear and respond to prayers from their living followers across the earth.
2. Dead saints in heaven are just like people here on earth in that they are willing to pray for strangers - not!
3. Dead saints in heaven have the ear of God whereas Jesus Christ does not because he does not interecede for people on earth - not! (Hebrews 7:23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.)
4. Dead saints in heaven are assigned special areas of expertise in God's Post Office so that folks on earth can have better delivery of particular prayers.

Your reply is what is twisted

They have not become demi-gods. This is simply a gift given by the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ:
Luke 20:36 where Jesus is answering the Pharisees:
"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection...”
Luke 15:7
"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
How are they able to rejoice over a news they are completely oblivious/deaf of? You guys preach and believe
Satan can roam around the world and tempt billions of people, yet you can't believe the gift given by God to Christians?

Revelation 8:3-4
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” (What was the incense described as in the early chapters of Rev? Prayers of Saints)

The Saints in heaven have no need for prayers for their own needs because they have passed the life on Earth, but the saints of the Physical world need those prayers and look how it is added on to the prayers of the Saints before God's alter. This is a traditional practice that all older christians sects practiced.

 

[Albion]

Again, this is very twisted theology based upon some very strange presuppositions, as follow:

1. Dead saints in heaven have become demi-gods with the power of omnipresence and omniscience in order to hear and respond to prayers from their living followers across the earth.
2. Dead saints in heaven are just like people here on earth in that they are willing to pray for strangers - not!
3. Dead saints in heaven have the ear of God whereas Jesus Christ does not because he does not interecede for people on earth - not! (Hebrews 7:23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.)
4. Dead saints in heaven are assigned special areas of expertise in God's Post Office so that folks on earth can have better delivery of particular prayers.

You're right to say that there are many peculiar extensions of the idea that proponents always want to explain as being so very simple and obvious.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Your reply is what is twisted

They have not become demi-gods. This is simply a gift given by the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ:
Luke 20:36 where Jesus is answering the Pharisees:
"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection...”
Luke 15:7
"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
How are they able to rejoice over a news they are completely oblivious/deaf of? You guys preach and believe
Satan can roam around the world and tempt billions of people, yet you can't believe the gift given by God to Christians?

Revelation 8:3-4
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” (What was the incense described as in the early chapters of Rev? Prayers of Saints)

The Saints in heaven have no need for prayers for their own needs because they have passed the life on Earth, but the saints of the Physical world need those prayers and look how it is added on to the prayers of the Saints before God's alter. This is a traditional practice that all older christians sects practiced.

Here is a standard definition of demigod - a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.

It is extremely difficult for you to honestly believe that a Catholic saint is not a mortar which has been raised to divine rank in light of your belief that these saints must possess the divine attributes of omnipresence and omniscience.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

It pretty much does, you just don't want to admit it. There is no other logical way for these Elders to be holding the prayers if it wasn't given to them to pass it to God. Later on though, you are trying to shove this fact by claiming that them holding the prayers are of no significant just so you can go with your "it doesn't mean that" statements.

Next, the Saints are not our main recipients... . God is the main recipient and it is to him in where our prayers is addressed, we just look to the people in heaven for intercession with it.

Look, you are completely ignoring what I have said.

Firstly, as I have said, ‘Evidently, God probably charged the elders with collecting everyone's prayers.’ So, that is how the elders are holding the prayers.

Secondly, the fact that the elders are holding the prayers does not mean that we should address our prayers to them instead of doing it to God. The Bible never says that, when we pray, we should see the twenty-four elders, in any way, as the mediators to whom we deliver prayers and who will them relay them to God. Thus, you cannot use this verse to show that we should pray to anyone else other than God. Whatever the verse means and however the prayers ended up in their hands, one thing is certain: it does not teach that we should pray to them or include them in our prayers.

Thirdly, those twenty-four elders are not the dead saints, since there are many more than twenty-four saints. Therefore, this verse does not even mention them, and cannot be used, in any way, to teach that we should pray to saints.

If we go by the definition of Saint, they pretty much are. In the New Testament, the Greek word “hagios” is translated holy or saint.. and since Angels were in the presence of God longer than humans were, and were first witnesses and believers to the existence of the trinity of God then they fit the definition of it.

Since when is ‘witnessing and believing in the Trinity’ the definition of ‘saint’? There is a difference between being a saint (noun) and being holy (adjective). Someone holy is someone pure, who has never sinned; but the saints are the people of God, so a saint is a Christian. God is holy but not a saint; angels would probably fall in a similar category.

But granted! Let us, for a second, accept the ridiculous idea that angels are saints. If the Bible talks about praying to angels (some saints), how can you possibly conclude that it is right to pray to any saint?

Physical Death still exists, but spiritual death doesn't. Spiritual death means more than the physical death because once you die in spirit, that is it. I've practically provided verses that you just want to pass off yet fail to give any other logical meaning to show another context to it.

Ah! So physical death exists! In that case, please stop changing the definition of ‘death’ which I have been using! I am talking about physical death. So, if I mention ‘dead saints’, I am talking (obviously!) about ‘physically dead saints’! Do you want to force me to consistently write ‘physically dead saints’ instead? Fine, I will! Now, let us stop arguing over minute details, and move on with the aim of our discussion, like rational people do, rather than turning away from the point! Whether the physically dead saints are spiritually dead or spiritually alive is not the point of this discussion!

And he told us so.. whether or not you want to accept Rev and start choosing words you want to be significant, you have yet to show any logical or scriptural explanation as to how these elders and angels managed to get these prayers to present to God. If they can't hear you, how did the golden bowls contain those prayers that eventually travelled to God?

I have explained how they got there — see the beginning of this post. I have also explained that it is irrelevant. Throughout the New Testament, we have dozens of exhortations of praying to God and asking others to intercede for us, but not a single one of praying to physically dead saints or to ask physically dead saints to intercede for us.

No, please reply with taking at least a minute of thought. In this verse Paul instructs and advices Christians to pray to him.

Are we talking about the same thing? How on Earth does 1 Timothy 2:5 say that Paul is asking Christians to pray to him? And how is it that, just two or three days ago (http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nts-in-churches.7921323/page-14#post-69511785), it said that ‘Paul [was instructing] Christians to pray for one another’?

Now, your job is to clarify that by showing that there are exemptions or limitations in Christian intercession, such as being limited to only earth beings.

I don't need to show it. You are the one who needs to show me where it says that asking physically dead saints in Heaven to intercede for us is permissible, since I have told you that, although the New Testament often approaches the topic of intercession, not one single time is praying to physically dead saints mentioned.

Why not? Since these prayers are all in the context of giving God the glory, then how is only one side permissible. You see here, that David is speaking in direct to angels (the saints of that time) which indicates that even the old testament followers of God would pray and sing to the saints all for the purpose of giving Glory to God.

“Bless the LORD, you his angels..." (Psalm 103:20-21).

Angels are not saints!

Now check Luke 20:36 where Jesus is answering the Pharisees:
"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection...”

How on Earth does ‘equal unto the angels’ (or, in a modern version, like the NIV, ‘like the angels’) mean ‘the same category as angels’?

How they ended up in their hands is significant, you really need to explain how it got there to make your case sensible. You just copped out. God asked that we all pray for and with each other, he never limited the spiritual body from the physical one.

(sigh) I rest my case.

We pray directly to God, he is the main recipient But we also realize that our prayers are more powerful when joined with others. The reason why we choose to have our prayers assisted and joined with other christians (both in heaven and on earth) is because Jesus tells us, “Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 18:19).

Exactly! ‘If two of you shall agree on Earth’!

This can be fired back at you with the question "why ask fellow church members, who's sins you do not know, to pray for you instead of just praying directly to God yourself?

I meant: ‘Why do you pray directly to God and not to the twenty-four elders?’ Because, apparently, in your mindset, if you pray to God, he will play boomerang with the prayers, by tossing them to the bowls of the elders and then having them tossed back; in your mindset, you need to pray to the elders, to avoid this inconvenience, because the only way that the prayers will end up in their bowls is if you pray to them.

What makes your "those who follow the bible" anywhere different from all the 17 century onward christian denominations and cults that claim the same? Mormons claim they follow the Bible, Islam claims they even follow the Bible (the "uncorrupted" one), Iglesia ni Christo claims their theology is based off the bible. How can you make that claim when you are more than hundreds of years after the Bible was canonized and translated?

Easy! I am sufficiently intelligent to read the Bible and understand it, and sufficiently honest to actually accept it when I say that I accept it. Evidently, all the others, though they may declare they accept the Bible, do not.

Right, because the truth only came out past the 17th century. It took the Holy Spirit more than 1,500 years to speak to people.

People may choose to silence the voice of truth being spoken by the Spirit.

A Bible that you still use...

Of course I still use it! You Catholics did not change it (apart from adding 7 books, which are not under discussion); you just misinterpreted it.

You sound like a muslim and Jehova's witness now.

Evidently, you have never heard a Protestant speak about Catholic doctrine.