Cappadocious
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How did you make the leap from "love and respect" to "worship"?Actually, if you want to go that route, then you ought to set up an altar in your home to your ancestors and worship them, as do multitudes in Asian countries. They are confounded at the absence of love and respect for ancestors by Christians.
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. [2 Peter 1:3-4]Dead saints in heaven have become demi-gods with the power of omnipresence and omniscience in order to hear and respond to prayers from their living followers across the earth.
Are you a sock puppet for bbbbbbb?Just describing how the historic progression of the concept has gone.
Here is a standard definition of demigod - a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.
It is extremely difficult for you to honestly believe that a Catholic saint is not a mortar which has been raised to divine rank in light of your belief that these saints must possess the divine attributes of omnipresence and omniscience.
Another leap!If you don't like Discussion Boards, there are lots of other hobbies.
Look, you are completely ignoring what I have said.
Firstly, as I have said, ‘Evidently, God probably charged the elders with collecting everyone's prayers.’ So, that is how the elders are holding the prayers.
How many times does it have to be told to you, prayers are NOT addressed to them, they are interceded/join by them. It is God who is the main address. You are making strawman arguments when ever single vocabulary and context in that verse shows that all these prayers were in the possession of these elders and angels, and they gave it to God.Secondly, the fact that the elders are holding the prayers does not mean that we should address our prayers to them instead of doing it to God. The Bible never says that, when we pray, we should see the twenty-four elders, in any way, as the mediators to whom we deliver prayers and who will them relay them to God. Thus, you cannot use this verse to show that we should pray to anyone else other than God. Whatever the verse means and however the prayers ended up in their hands, one thing is certain: it does not teach that we should pray to them or include them in our prayers.
How are these elders not Saints? They are given a human term in a setting that is heaven while the other heavenly beings are given their actual term (Angels, God..). You are flinging around any form of guessed out logistics now. The quantity has 0 significance in your argument, that's like saying angels were never at the tomb because one verse only says 2 angels while there are numerous angels in existence. You see how bad that argument is?Thirdly, those twenty-four elders are not the dead saints, since there are many more than twenty-four saints. Therefore, this verse does not even mention them, and cannot be used, in any way, to teach that we should pray to saints.
Isn't the belief in the Trinity of God one of the formal definitions of the Christian faith?Since when is ‘witnessing and believing in the Trinity’ the definition of ‘saint’? There is a difference between being a saint (noun) and being holy (adjective). Someone holy is someone pure, who has never sinned; but the saints are the people of God, so a saint is a Christian. God is holy but not a saint; angels would probably fall in a similar category.
I didn't change the definition of death, the Bible did. The Bible never considered a spiritual person in heaven to be dead. You are clinging on to the Physical side which makes your understanding of it very dim and small. Spiritual state is the point because that is what Christ came to save. He didn't come to make us immortal physically but spiritually.Ah! So physical death exists! In that case, please stop changing the definition of ‘death’ which I have been using! I am talking about physical death. So, if I mention ‘dead saints’, I am talking (obviously!) about ‘physically dead saints’! Do you want to force me to consistently write ‘physically dead saints’ instead? Fine, I will! Now, let us stop arguing over minute details, and move on with the aim of our discussion, like rational people do, rather than turning away from the point! Whether the physically dead saints are spiritually dead or spiritually alive is not the point of this discussion!
Why is them getting/holding these prayers irrelevant? You've been arguing on for verses that show Saints being able to receive prayers and here you have a verse showing you that they are holding it and giving it to God. Now that is irrelevant?I have explained how they got there — see the beginning of this post. I have also explained that it is irrelevant. Throughout the New Testament, we have dozens of exhortations of praying to God and asking others to intercede for us, but not a single one of praying to physically dead saints or to ask physically dead saints to intercede for us.
Are we talking about the same thing? How on Earth does 1 Timothy 2:5 say that Paul is asking Christians to pray to him? And how is it that, just two or three days ago (http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nts-in-churches.7921323/page-14#post-69511785), it said that ‘Paul [was instructing] Christians to pray for one another’?
You really have to, i've given my part on showing you verses of Saints passing prayers to God.. regardless of you just going "them holding that is insignificant", you had this and then the Psalms where David is calling on Angels.. so now you need to show me a verse in where praying it says you can't ask intercession to the living in Heaven? Are you denying your part to provide just because of the fact you don't want to admit that you don't have anything to provide?I don't need to show it. You are the one who needs to show me where it says that asking physically dead saints in Heaven to intercede for us is permissible, since I have told you that, although the New Testament often approaches the topic of intercession, not one single time is praying to physically dead saints mentioned.
They are, get over it.Angels are not saints!
Does it matter, the verse and Jesus states that once the spirit reaches heaven, it is not to be considered dead. The spirit is even greater now because as stated, it is like the angels. I never said anything that suggests a category.How on Earth does ‘equal unto the angels’ (or, in a modern version, like the NIV, ‘like the angels’) mean ‘the same category as angels’?
You make the same claims as the many mormons, jehova's wittnesses, muslims, and iglesia ni Christo who claim to be the ones who actual read the Bible, had God spoke to them about the "truth", and ended up seeing the NT as "edited version by the Catholics". The funny thing is, the other protestant denominations which you are not part of actually think they've rightfully interpreted it, while you and your denomination haven't. Most of these non-trinitarian Christian cults like the JW's think that you are "unknowingly" following the Catholic Church because of still using the Bible in which "we edited".Easy! I am sufficiently intelligent to read the Bible and understand it, and sufficiently honest to actually accept it when I say that I accept it. Evidently, all the others, though they may declare they accept the Bible, do not.
Of course I still use it! You Catholics did not change it (apart from adding 7 books, which are not under discussion); you just misinterpreted it.
There are about 3,000+ protestants out there, some of them actually follow a lot of the Catholic doctrine and practices such as praying to the saints (Lutherans, Episcopalians for example).. the only form of protestants that speak against it are the ones born a thousand+ years after the canonized bible, and likely even younger than Islam. I have heard a lot of Protestant arguments against Catholics, and they are all different and some of those Protestant arguments (such as that of the Lutherans and Episcopalians) go against your protestant views. It's kinda weird to value a denomination, when it's earliest roots actually do the things the neo-protestants argue against.Evidently, you have never heard a Protestant speak about Catholic doctrine.
I said:Just describing how the historic progression of the concept has gone.
Why would he charge the elders to collect prayers that are meant to travel to him?
You can see that these prayers travelled to God as incense.. if you research incense it is being given to somebody. The symbology of it and it being described as incense refutes your logic.
How many times does it have to be told to you, prayers are NOT addressed to them, they are interceded/join by them. It is God who is the main address. You are making strawman arguments when ever single vocabulary and context in that verse shows that all these prayers were in the possession of these elders and angels, and they gave it to God.
How are these elders not Saints? They are given a human term in a setting that is heaven while the other heavenly beings are given their actual term (Angels, God..). You are flinging around any form of guessed out logistics now.
The quantity has 0 significance in your argument, that's like saying angels were never at the tomb because one verse only says 2 angels while there are numerous angels in existence. You see how bad that argument is?
They could be just 10 elders to even only 2 but nevertheless the verse clearly shows these elders and saints are doing the act of intercession, holding prayers in these golden bowls that eventually travelled to God. They would not be able to pass along prayers if they were not given it by the sender in the first place.
Now at this part of your comment, you are required to show me who these 24 elders in heaven are if they are not human spirits.
Isn't the belief in the Trinity of God one of the formal definitions of the Christian faith?
You really didn't get what i was talking about here.
I didn't change the definition of death, the Bible did. The Bible never considered a spiritual person in heaven to be dead. You are clinging on to the Physical side which makes your understanding of it very dim and small. Spiritual state is the point because that is what Christ came to save. He didn't come to make us immortal physically but spiritually.
Why is them getting/holding these prayers irrelevant? You've been arguing on for verses that show Saints being able to receive prayers and here you have a verse showing you that they are holding it and giving it to God. Now that is irrelevant?
I meant 1st Tim 2:1
also Ep 6:18 too Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints.
You really have to, i've given my part on showing you verses of Saints passing prayers to God.. regardless of you just going "them holding that is insignificant", you had this and then the Psalms where David is calling on Angels.. so now you need to show me a verse in where praying it says you can't ask intercession to the living in Heaven? Are you denying your part to provide just because of the fact you don't want to admit that you don't have anything to provide?
They are, get over it.
Does it matter, the verse and Jesus states that once the spirit reaches heaven, it is not to be considered dead. The spirit is even greater now because as stated, it is like the angels. I never said anything that suggests a category.
You make the same claims as the many mormons, jehova's wittnesses, muslims, and iglesia ni Christo who claim to be the ones who actual read the Bible, had God spoke to them about the "truth", and ended up seeing the NT as "edited version by the Catholics". The funny thing is, the other protestant denominations which you are not part of actually think they've rightfully interpreted it, while you and your denomination haven't. Most of these non-trinitarian Christian cults like the JW's think that you are "unknowingly" following the Catholic Church because of still using the Bible in which "we edited".
We canonized the scripture and verified every book to form the canon of the NT, yet it took more than a thousand years for it to be fully and correctly interpreted?
There are about 3,000+ protestants out there, some of them actually follow a lot of the Catholic doctrine and practices such as praying to the saints (Lutherans, Episcopalians for example).. the only form of protestants that speak against it are the ones born a thousand+ years after the canonized bible, and likely even younger than Islam. I have heard a lot of Protestant arguments against Catholics, and they are all different and some of those Protestant arguments (such as that of the Lutherans and Episcopalians) go against your protestant views. It's kinda weird to value a denomination, when it's earliest roots actually do the things the neo-protestants argue against.
How is it not relevant? When you are challenged logically for your arguments, it becomes irrelevant?? Looks like you can create any form of argument against it. Not only can you think of a basis for your previous logic, you can't even form any creative thinking answer on what the exact meaning of this verse is, therefore just going off with statements is your only resort.I don't know, nor is it relevant. What is certain, however, is that the verse you are talking about does not teach that we should pray to the saints.
All right, let me ask the question in another way. We see the elders (whom you say are saints, but we can talk about that later) giving our prayers to God. How does that change the way you pray? Does that mean that you should pray to these elders, so that they may give the prayers to God? Will my prayers made to God directly not actually reach him, because I forgot to consider these elders? How does this verse teach that?
You are coping out now. You had a verse and the best argument you can make so far is just saying "this means nothing". When a person just ends up retorting with one line sentences, he really just does not want to give up.Means nothing.
So what if a number is/isn't listed? It doesn't disclose the fact that they are passing prayers.. look how senseless your replies are now. Your swing is now the number that is suggested. It could have been written as 10 elders to even 1, and it still shows that these people in heaven are passing prayers to God.The verse says, ‘the twenty-four elders’. Nothing in the text implies that there are any more than those twenty-four. But granted! Let us assume for a second that these elders are actual Christians. Still, where does it teach that we should pray to them? Where does it even say that they are able to know what is inside the bowls and read our prayers, so that they can relay them to God in the manner which you are proposing?
You do.. and the fact that you refuse to shows you don't have it. I gave you a verse, and you are poorly reasoning out of it, stating that the actions being done is irrelevant. Now you admit that you don't any verse that directly says that Christian fellowship ends when a person physically dies. You were given more than 1 verse showing earthly believers fellowshipping with the servants of God in heaven, from the Revelations to the Pslams, with additional writings showing the passing of prayers from them and unto God. I gave you what you asked for based on scripture, and you are just copping out by giving one line statement replies, refusing to admit that there is no verse condemning the intercession of Christians on Earth and Heaven.No, I am not. I just do not know; but, unlike you, I do not add to the text nor talk about what I do not know.
You have to accept the trinity to be a christian in the academical sense. The Trinity is the Christian God. That's like saying you don't need to believe/accept Mohammad as a prophet or Allah as god to be a Muslim.No, it is not. You do not have to accept the Trinity to be a Christian. The Trinity is not a very relevant doctrine — in fact, it is so secondary that it is never explicitly taught in the Bible. If it were key to your faith, surely Jesus or the apostles would have talked about it much more clearly.
So then you can't understand the argument. The whole thing is about spiritual life/death, that means more in the physical. That is where the topic is centered on, and will always be centered on when talking about asking prayers from the spirits in heaven. Keep spamming and choosing every form of contextual refutation as irrelevant to save yourself.Irrelevant. I am talking about physical death.
No, I have been asking for verses that show: 1) that saints can hear our prayers (Revelation only shows elders delivering them, not hearing them first); and, most importantly, 2) that we actually should pray to saints, or that it is permissible to pray to saints. If God asks them to ‘go and get the prayers to give them to him’, as he seems to be doing in Revelation (although it is possible that this is essentially symbolic, so we cannot make a dogmatic case from it), that is irrelevant, since he has always asked us to pray to him directly. He has never told us to pray to physically dead saints.
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people.How on Earth do those verses say that Paul is asking them to pray to him?
So your entire replies have been "them holding prayers is irrelevant" to "I rest my case"?As for the verses you have shown, if that is all you have, then I rest my case
Definition of Saints, and how Angels are described shows they are also regarded as Saints. It's logically pattern and you are just flinging around. You were also given a verse from Jesus stating that a believers spirit eventually becomes like the Angels.But it still does not say that angels as saints like us.
Sorry, it's regarded as historical fact. The council of Nicea and Constantine were Catholic, that was what Christianity was after Palestine.. it was the east and the west. I know you will drag this argument and just reply with anything coming out of your head regardless of historical evidence being provided. You really have been making straw man arguments and sound almost like Keltoi.No, the Catholic Church did not canonise the New Testament; the Christian Church did. I am not sure how old the tradition of praying to saints really is, but, if it is from that time, then, yes, it evidently took more than a thousand years for it to be fully and correctly interpreted.
But you've been saying stuff about how Protestants got it all right not when you are given the reality of Protestants and their many denominations, especially their timeline of birth, it's irrelevant?Not all Protestants are entirely correct. But that is irrelevant now. We are talking about the doctrine of praying to saints, not Protestantism
Well then we are actually demi-gods by that definition, we are offsprings of God created in his likeness and image, but we are not raised to divine rank in a sense as God is. Neverthless, you were already given the verses in where Jesus states the actual status of the spiritual human once in heaven.
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels and are the children of God
If you want to use the term demi-god on that then so beit.
They don't have to be omnipresent and omniscient. Maybe multi-present and wise. But one can certainly get the job done without omniscience and omnipresence.
As for divine attributes, God lends his divine attributes to us in part. Have you not heard it said...
There are no dead Christians.dead Christians
1. Says who?Even Satan and the demons, not to mention angels, do not have that attribute.
I didn't choose that. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did.1. you have chosen to give dead Christians some of the attributes of deity.
That doesn't follow.Thus, you are polytheistic in your beliefs.
There are no dead Christians.
1. Says who?
2. To which of the angels said he at any time, sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
I didn't choose that. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did.
That doesn't follow.
How is it not relevant? When you are challenged logically for your arguments, it becomes irrelevant?? Looks like you can create any form of argument against it. Not only can you think of a basis for your previous logic, you can't even form any creative thinking answer on what the exact meaning of this verse is, therefore just going off with statements is your only resort.
"How does that change the way you pray"... what?No one is arguing that these practices are mandatory but permissible and useful to do so. In short, it shows intercession is still capable regardless of the christian being in heaven. You just stretched out the argument.
You are coping out now. You had a verse and the best argument you can make so far is just saying "this means nothing". When a person just ends up retorting with one line sentences, he really just does not want to give up.
So what if a number is/isn't listed? It doesn't disclose the fact that they are passing prayers.. look how senseless your replies are now. Your swing is now the number that is suggested. It could have been written as 10 elders to even 1, and it still shows that these people in heaven are passing prayers to God.
Let us assume for a second that these elders are actual Christians. Why only assume when it is so certain, who else can enter heaven and be at the midsts of God aside from Angels and Humans?
Still, where does it teach that we should pray to them?
Not should but can. No one ever said these practices are mandatory, the argument is whether these practices are scriptural based. What this verse shows is that the intercession of Christians is still alive and not done when a person dies. You will just reply with the same one liner "it's not" or "that's irrelevant" after this.
Where does it even say that they are able to know what is inside the bowls and read our prayers, so that they can relay them to God in the manner which you are proposing?
Common sense. How did they get these prayers if it wasn't given to them first to be passed? Common sense shows those prayers went to someone else before it reached God. You are not giving any sensible reason as to how and why they are holding and passing these prayers.
You do.. and the fact that you refuse to shows you don't have it. I gave you a verse, and you are poorly reasoning out of it, stating that the actions being done is irrelevant. Now you admit that you don't any verse that directly says that Christian fellowship ends when a person physically dies. You were given more than 1 verse showing earthly believers fellowshipping with the servants of God in heaven, from the Revelations to the Pslams, with additional writings showing the passing of prayers from them and unto God. I gave you what you asked for based on scripture, and you are just copping out by giving one line statement replies, refusing to admit that there is no verse condemning the intercession of Christians on Earth and Heaven.
You have to accept the trinity to be a christian in the academical sense. The Trinity is the Christian God. That's like saying you don't need to believe/accept Mohammad as a prophet or Allah as god to be a Muslim.
So then you can't understand the argument. The whole thing is about spiritual life/death, that means more in the physical. That is where the topic is centered on, and will always be centered on when talking about asking prayers from the spirits in heaven. Keep spamming and choosing every form of contextual refutation as irrelevant to save yourself.
1. You were given it, but you pass it off as irrelevant.
2. No one made the argument that it is a rule to do so. Stop trying to fish for something that was never suggested.
3. I've said it multiple times, that our prayers is mainly directed to God. We go to saints, just like we go to our church members, asking them to have us in their prayers to God. You have been arguing about things that are not in the case of the argument.
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people.
Ep 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit,being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints and for me.
So your entire replies have been "them holding prayers is irrelevant" to "I rest my case"?
Definition of Saints, and how Angels are described shows they are also regarded as Saints. It's logically pattern and you are just flinging around. You were also given a verse from Jesus stating that a believers spirit eventually becomes like the Angels.
Sorry, it's regarded as historical fact. The council of Nicea and Constantine were Catholic, that was what Christianity was after Palestine.. it was the east and the west. I know you will drag this argument and just reply with anything coming out of your head regardless of historical evidence being provided. You really have been making straw man arguments and sound almost like Keltoi.
But you've been saying stuff about how Protestants got it all right not when you are given the reality of Protestants and their many denominations, especially their timeline of birth, it's irrelevant?
I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but, yes, Christians do die. In fact, Christians are dying all around us. Despite what Mary Baker Eddy taught and her followers believe, there is physical reality and the wages of sin is still death. All die, even you. I guarantee that 200 years from now your body will have long returned to dust and ashes.
You can speculate to your heart's content concerning the spiritual state of deceased people, but the fact remains that they died and are no longer here on earth to talk with you and to listen to you. As David said, concerning his first son by Bathsheba, "I will go to him, but he cannot come to me."
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