Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[bbbbbbb]

We do know they are in heaven because when you read the entire chapters that follow and lead on you can the setting is in Heaven. Even in In Revelation 6:9-10 you can see martyred saints are praying imprecatory prayers against their murderers, urging the Lord to avenge their deaths. How can the setting be anywhere else other than Heaven?

Now back to 5:8, there is no logical reasoning to deny that it is being offered. People can pray to incense, Really? What word in that verse indicated that? "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. You have this verse telling you immediately what these incense are." The explanation of what the incense is was given here. So when rendered, the angels and the elders were holding a golden bowl that was full of prayers. And these prayers came out of these bowls (that is what incense does) eventually traveled to God. the verse so clear and directly explains it's own symbology and you are shooting random stuff on it. There is a reason why all the early christians believed this, this was definitely a known and approve practice based on scripture.
Heaven would be a very strange place, and God a very strange Father, if Christians in heaven were prohibited from intercessory prayer. Why would God allow intercessory prayer by Christians on earth but prohibit it by Christians in heaven?" It's only you 17TH century born Protestants who disapprove of this.

So, you are saying that the prayers in the bowls are those of saints in heaven. If so, then that obviates any consideration that they are the prayers of humans on earth, thus destroying any assertion that people on earth who pray to saints can base their confidence that the saints hear their prayers at all. BTW, who were those folks in the epistles that are called saints and were they in heaven when the epistles were written?

 

[Cis.jd]

So, you are saying that the prayers in the bowls are those of saints in heaven. If so, then that obviates any consideration that they are the prayers of humans on earth, thus destroying any assertion that people on earth who pray to saints can base their confidence that the saints hear their prayers at all. BTW, who were those folks in the epistles that are called saints and were they in heaven when the epistles were written?

Nowhere in my posts suggested that. I clearly said that the illustration of that verse, or chapters in general, was angels and saints passing prayers to God, prayers of the saints (us christians) on earth.. I don't know what "folks" you are referring to in the epistles, because there were a lot of "folks" in there be more specific on this one.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Nowhere in my posts suggested that. I clearly said that the illustration of that verse, or chapters in general, was angels and saints passing prayers to God, prayers of the saints (us christians) on earth.. I don't know what "folks" you are referring to in the epistles, because there were a lot of "folks" in there be more specific on this one.

It specifically states that in the bowls are the prayers of the saints, not the prayers of others. Either these are the prayers of the saints in heaven which they initiated or they might be the prayers of living saints on earth. They are not the prayers of church members who are not saints.

 

[Cis.jd]

It specifically states that in the bowls are the prayers of the saints, not the prayers of others. Either these are the prayers of the saints in heaven which they initiated or they might be the prayers of living saints on earth. They are not the prayers of church members who are not saints.

Right. The elders are the saints in heaven, while the prayers in the bowls belong to the saints on earth. Why would angels carry the prayers of the saints who were bowing right next to them?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Right. The elders are the saints in heaven, while the prayers in the bowls belong to the saints on earth. Why would angels carry the prayers of the saints who were bowing right next to them?

Good question, indeed, although there are, assuredly, more than 24 saints in heaven. Now, in light of the fact that there are precious few saints on the earth and Catholics are, most assuredly, not to presume that they themselves are personally saints, what is the point for a non-saint to pray to saints if, in fact, the saints in heaven carry the prayers of earthly saints to God? BTW, the heavenly saints are not the objects of prayers, but merely conveying the prayers of earthly saints, would you not agree?

 

[Cis.jd]

Good question, indeed, although there are, assuredly, more than 24 saints in heaven. Now, in light of the fact that there are precious few saints on the earth and Catholics are, most assuredly, not to presume that they themselves are personally saints, what is the point for a non-saint to pray to saints if, in fact, the saints in heaven carry the prayers of earthly saints to God? BTW, the heavenly saints are not the objects of prayers, but merely conveying the prayers of earthly saints, would you not agree?

Christians in general are known as saints, whether dead or alive. Your"what is a non-saint to pray to saints if.." has been explained to the death already. The point of a christian on earth seeking prayers from a christian in heaven is just because of the verse in James in concerns of the prayers of the righteous person. Since them being in Heaven is proof of their righteousness then it goes in the context that their prayers are strong. Don't you go to your church and go to a pastor or prayer leader over some random new guy who just became a member a week ago? I don't think so.

Heavenly saints are NEVER the object of prayer, God is always the main object.. the main goal to where are prayers reach so them not being the object of prayer is irrelevant, they are still passing the prayers of the people on earth to God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Christians in general are known as saints, whether dead or alive. Your"what is a non-saint to pray to saints if.." has been explained to the death already. The point of a christian on earth seeking prayers from a christian in heaven is just because of the verse in James in concerns of the prayers of the righteous person. Since them being in Heaven is proof of their righteousness then it goes in the context that their prayers are strong. Don't you go to your church and go to a pastor or prayer leader over some random new guy who just became a member a week ago? I don't think so.

Heavenly saints are NEVER the object of prayer, God is always the main object.. the main goal to where are prayers reach so them not being the object of prayer is irrelevant, they are still passing the prayers of the people on earth to God.

I think you will search the Catechism of the Catholic Church in vain to find any such definition of saints. The Catholic Church does not consider all of its members to be saints (nor even a majority of its members).

 

[Cis.jd]

I think you will search the Catechism of the Catholic Church in vain to find any such definition of saints. The Catholic Church does not consider all of its members to be saints (nor even a majority of its members).

But it does, there two different types of saints. If you look at other translations "the prayers of the saints" is also "prayers of God's people" both are still equal to christians. I know you are trying to play the semantics game because you can't answer logically on what is in the verse, the point is you see prayers being carried by heavenly hosts and delivered to God. There is no word or word in that sentence that suggests otherwise.

 

[bbbbbbb]

But it does, there two different types of saints. If you look at other translations "the prayers of the saints" is also "prayers of God's people" both are still equal to christians. I know you are trying to play the semantics game because you can't answer logically on what is in the verse, the point is you see prayers being carried by heavenly hosts and delivered to God. There is no word or word in that sentence that suggests otherwise.

The Greek word in question is ἁγίων (hagios) which is consistently translated in the Bible as saint(s). If one were to translate God's "people" back into Greek one would have λαοί instead (laoi, the plural of laos) which is translated as people. Your Bible, as commonly called the Douay-Rheims translated hagios correctly as "saints". Do you disagree with your Church on this translation?

 

[Cis.jd]

The Greek word in question is ἁγίων (hagios) which is consistently translated in the Bible as saint(s). If one were to translate God's "people" back into Greek one would have λαοί instead (laoi, the plural of laos) which is translated as people. Your Bible, as commonly called the Douay-Rheims translated hagios correctly as "saints". Do you disagree with your Church on this translation?

Yes, and saints in that verse isn't capitalized, there it isn't the "title" version. It's common sense, from who are these angels and Saints/elders interceding prayers for? Each other, saints and angels do need intercession there is nothing they need to pray for on their on behalf.
Here are two links that say "saints" is also ascribed to all christians, even your own protestant sites (such as gotquestions and carm.org) don't deny this.

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a50.htm

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, and saints in that verse isn't capitalized, there it isn't the "title" version. It's common sense, from who are these angels and Saints/elders interceding prayers for? Each other, saints and angels do need intercession there is nothing they need to pray for on their on behalf.
Here are two links that say "saints" is also ascribed to all christians, even your own protestant sites (such as gotquestions and carm.org) don't deny this.

http://www.justforcatholics.org/a50.htm

Are you Catholic? If so, why do you choose to use Protestant sources to affirm your personal beliefs? Your website is a Protestant site with the intent of converting Catholics. I think you will find this - http://www.catholic.org/saints/faq.php - to be much more in line with Catholic doctrine.

You will not find any official Catholic sources that will state that every member of your denomination is a saint. In fact, such a view is considered to be presumptious, on the order of declaring oneself to be perfectly righteous and sinless.

 

[Hawkiz]

Are you Catholic? If so, why do you choose to use Protestant sources to affirm your personal beliefs? Your website is a Protestant site with the intent of converting Catholics. I think you will find this - http://www.catholic.org/saints/faq.php - to be much more in line with Catholic doctrine.

You will not find any official Catholic sources that will state that every member of your denomination is a saint. In fact, such a view is considered to be presumptious, on the order of declaring oneself to be perfectly righteous and sinless.

The catechism of the Catholic Church states: in part one, Section 2, chapter 3, article 9, paragraph 5, lines 946 and following
'...the communion of saints is the church.' And for easy reference, the web page where this can be found is: Vatican.va. Or one could perform a quick Google search for 'communion of saints Catholic, and the catechism will pop up near the top.

So as the catechism says, as a fully Catholic source, both those on earth and those in heaven (who have recieved fully the righteousness of Christ), the Catholic Church would back the concept that all who are in Christ are in fact rightly termed 'saints'. The catechism also states that earthly saints in particular clearly have varying degrees to which they are 'saintly', but so long as they are worshiping God, and praising our savior Jesus Christ, they are to be considered to be part of the communion of saints. This would include not just members of the Roman rite Catholic Church, but ALL brothers and sisters in Christ are to be rightly referred to as saints. That means that both you and I are also considered saints.

The catechism uses clearer language than I do, but the citation above lays out the teaching in a very easy to read and understand format, with the appropriate scripture included.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

 

[bbbbbbb]

The catechism of the Catholic Church states: in part one, Section 2, chapter 3, article 9, paragraph 5, lines 946 and following
'...the communion of saints is the church.' And for easy reference, the web page where this can be found is: Vatican.va. Or one could perform a quick Google search for 'communion of saints Catholic, and the catechism will pop up near the top.

So as the catechism says, as a fully Catholic source, both those on earth and those in heaven (who have recieved fully the righteousness of Christ), the Catholic Church would back the concept that all who are in Christ are in fact rightly termed 'saints'. The catechism also states that earthly saints in particular clearly have varying degrees to which they are 'saintly', but so long as they are worshiping God, and praising our savior Jesus Christ, they are to be considered to be part of the communion of saints. This would include not just members of the Roman rite Catholic Church, but ALL brothers and sisters in Christ are to be rightly referred to as saints. That means that both you and I are also considered saints.

The catechism uses clearer language than I do, but the citation above lays out the teaching in a very easy to read and understand format, with the appropriate scripture included.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

The Catechism of the Catholic Church never states or implies that all of its members are saints. It does, as you have noted, speak of the communion of the saints as being between saints in heaven and saints on earth, but never does it state that all Catholics are saints. That there are, probably, a handful of Catholics alive today who will be duly canonized as saints is undoubted, but that leaves the vast majority of Catholics to face varying periods of torture in Purgatory before they are admitted to heaven as saints.

 

[Hawkiz]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church never states or implies that all of its members are saints. It does, as you have noted, speak of the communion of the saints as being between saints in heaven and saints on earth, but never does it state that all Catholics are saints. That there are, probably, a handful of Catholics alive today who will be duly canonized as saints is undoubted, but that leaves the vast majority of Catholics to face varying periods of torture in Purgatory before they are admitted to heaven as saints.

You are correct that the catechism never states that all Catholics are saints. What it actually says, in line 962 "We believe in the communion of All the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers". (Emphasis mine on ALL).

Which is exactly the sentiment that I quoted to you in the previous post: all those in Christ are to be considered saints. (Not just 'it's members'). So the language of the catechism is much more inclusive than 'only' Catholics. It includes all the faithful of Christ that are to be considered saints.

Please cite your sources where it says otherwise, or please consider that the Catholic Church considers all the faithful of Christ to be saints.

Peace in Christ

Hawkiz

 

[JCFantasy23]

I have been attending this Church for several years. I believed it's an Anglican based church. 99% of the praise & worship services I felt comfortable with except for the 1%. I tried to disregard this incident that happened about 3-4 times but I felt a great sense of unease on my last service.

The preacher had a long sermon about praying to St Andrew ....etc Natually my mind was blocked. Suffice to say I'm a bible following Christian. I hope I don't offend any bros or sis who are catholic but I choose to believe that the only prayers I'm allowed to make are those directed to the Triune God. Trinity. It is extremely challenging for me to accept the concept of praying to a Saint so he could more effectively relay our prayers to the Almighty. That is the concept no ?

I need your sharing and opinion on this subject. You don't have to reveal your denomination, it's irrelevant. This isn't a debate. I'm just here to seek enlightenment and whether my reaction is justified. Thanks

I agree with you completely. I only pray to God and would be uncomfortable doing otherwise. I have discussed this with Him in prayer before after confusion on so many Christians who seem to think it is fine to do. It's definitely not for me - I don't blame you for feeling uncomfortable when it happens in your church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You are correct that the catechism never states that all Catholics are saints. What it actually says, in line 962 "We believe in the communion of All the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers". (Emphasis mine on ALL).

Which is exactly the sentiment that I quoted to you in the previous post: all those in Christ are to be considered saints. (Not just 'it's members'). So the language of the catechism is much more inclusive than 'only' Catholics. It includes all the faithful of Christ that are to be considered saints.

Please cite your sources where it says otherwise, or please consider that the Catholic Church considers all the faithful of Christ to be saints.

Peace in Christ

Hawkiz

I agree with you entirely. The Catholic Church limits sainthood only to those it considers to be the faithful of Christ. This excludes the vast majority of its members, ironically.

How is that, you might ask? I will cite a simple example. The Catholic Church has a list of what it considers to be serious (mortal) sins, which, in unconfessed to a priest, will result in the eternal damnation of the soul. One of these sins is that of intentionally failing to attend weekly mass. The vast majority of Catholics in Europe do not attend weekly mass and, therefore, are not among the faithful of Christ.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

How is this debunked? All christiandom prior to the 17th century believed in praying to the heavenly hosts for intercession, that is academically proof.

Show me one single verse in the New Testament that encourages, or even mentions, praying to saints in Heaven.

They built this belief because of scripture and the fact that even the Jews of Christs time did it. The Jews prayed to Elijah because they knew/believed that he reached heaven, all people who reach heaven are not completely dead.

Show me one single verse in the Old Testament that encourages, or even mentions, praying to saints in Heaven.

They are just physically dead. The spirit is the actual life of a Human being, not the flesh and bone. If you say "a christian dies, he dies" you now have rejected the purpose of the cross.

Show me one single verse that says that the purpose of the cross is to let Christians on Earth pray to Christians in Heaven.

The Bible does say that we christians are supposed to pray for one another and I believe I cited revelations that shows the saints of heaven are giving the prayers of the saints on earth.

Revelation says you can.

No, it doesn't. But I will talk about it in a moment.

Where is it biblically discouraged to ask the people and angels in heaven to pray for you?

I did not say it was discouraged; I said it was not encouraged. The Bible says there is one mediator.

Look at Ps 103:20 Praise the Lord, you his angels, you mighty ones, who do his bidding....
We is he talking/asking directly to heavenly hosts if by you and your claim, "asking people in heaven to pray for you".. If you reply:"He is referring to angels, not people" does this mean that it is ok to spiritually "ask" (pray) angels only?

Wow! So, in order to justify praying and interceding to dead saints, you show a verse that exhorts angels to praise God! Such an exhortation of praise has got nothing to do with praying to saints!

and if it is ONLY angels then why is it in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense? If it is wrong or if they are not aware of it, then how can they offer something God forbids or totally deaf too?

I am not sure where you read the saints in Heaven offering our prayers to God. This is what the text says: ‘And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.’ Those who take the prayers of God are the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders, not the dead saints, who are many more than twenty-four.

Besides, this verse nowhere says that we should talk to the creatures and the elders directly.

Why is it, that only the protestant denominations that birthed during the 17th century -- more than 500 years after the Bible was canonized see this as unscriptural? All the older ones, including the first church "the unified church of Rome and the East" to Judaism believed this?

That is not true. The apostles probably also did not see it as scriptural, since they countless times encourage interceding for others, but not one single time even mention praying to saints.

However, it would not be the first time that Protestants would be correct and Catholics and Orthodoxes incorrect.

 

[Cis.jd]

Show me one single verse in the New Testament that encourages, or even mentions, praying to saints in Heaven.

Rev. 8:3-4, Revelation 5:8,

Show me one single verse in the Old Testament that encourages, or even mentions, praying to saints in Heaven.

There weren't any saints (as in people) in heaven during the OT other than angels (which are titled as saints as well), and Elijah (which the jews during those times and today still pray to) because Jesus did not break the curse of sin yet.
But here is OT of praying to Saints (Angels) Ps. 103:20-21; Ps. 148:1-2..
>Yes, i know you went "but he is asking them to praise him... not the same"... i will get there soon.

Show me one single verse that says that the purpose of the cross is to let Christians on Earth pray to Christians in Heaven.

Purpose? I think privilege is the right word, no one here suggested that Christ's sacrifice was just for the sake of people praying for each other. The purpose of the cross was to save us from spiritual death (the actual death) so in logical format: since Christians are saved from spiritual death they are given the privilege to pray in communion with each other regardless of being on earth or heaven. (No verse states it's only limited to earth, therefore your reply in concerns of the revelation verses is very strawman)

I did not say it was discouraged; I said it was not encouraged. The Bible says there is one mediator.

There is a difference between *Mediator* and *Intercessor*. Christ is the one mediator but that doesn't mean Christians can't intercede for each other. There are many verses that encourage christians to pray for one another take a look 1 Timothy 2:5 where Paul instructs Christians to pray for one another.. is he violating the mediator rule? No he isn't. If you make an argument such as "well the people in 1 Timothy are alive so only alive christians can" then you have indirectly denied the purpose of Christ's death of the cross which is to give life to all who believes and follows him.. Again i will restate: you are forced to pull out a verse that shows that physically dead christians can't pray for each other, with out it then you have no back up in whatever self-rationalistic argument/case you want to pull against the Revelation verses.

Wow! So, in order to justify praying and interceding to dead saints, you show a verse that exhorts angels to praise God! Such an exhortation of praise has got nothing to do with praying to saints!

Yes, if you actually knew the actual practice of praying to Saints you would understand how this connects. The whole verse is David speaking directly to Angels, you can see it "you, o his angels". Angels are the OT saints... that's why we use Saint as one of the titles of Michael, Gabriel, etc etc.. Prayers isn't just asking for assistance in personal matters but also asking in assistance in praising God. If I talk to God and just give him a bunch of praises, isn't that still considered praying? So how is asking Angels to praise God not a form of intercession? Unless you think that just giving praises doesn't count as praying, but praying isn't asking things for yourself.

I am not sure where you read the saints in Heaven offering our prayers to God. This is what the text says: ‘And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.’ Those who take the prayers of God are the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders, not the dead saints, who are many more than twenty-four.
Besides, this verse nowhere says that we should talk to the creatures and the elders directly.

Who are these 24 elders in Heaven then other than people? If there is nowhere that states we should talk to the creatures and elders, then how did the prayers end up in the golden bowls they were holding? That doesn't make sense for them to harbor Golden bowls full of prayers and present it towards God if it wasn't given to them. So is God playing boomerang with the prayers - tossing it into those golden bowls and having it being tossed back?

"they were holding the Golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people". The verse is so clear here, it explains the symbology right at the end. There is only one way those Golden Bowls they are holding is able to contain prayers, and that is if it was given to them for the purpose of it being delivered to God.

That is not true. The apostles probably also did not see it as scriptural, since they countless times encourage interceding for others, but not one single time even mention praying to saints.

Why would they encourage praying to the saints in heaven during that time when all of them where still physically alive on earth? They didn't pray to each other because none of them were in Heaven yet. The Apostles never denied that the death of the body was not the actual death, they believed in eternal life granted through Christ.

However, it would not be the first time that Protestants would be correct and Catholics and Orthodoxes incorrect.

Which of the 3,000-5,000+ Protestants, the ones who were born during 17th century (hundreds of years after the Bible's canonization) because those are the ones who think this is wrong. Even the first Protestant denominations such as Lutherans and Episcopalians believe it... by the way, the Jews also believe that people in heaven can intercede for us, they do it to Elijah. I presented a link to Jewish forum and other sources on it. So really, all the older Judaic Christian groups believe it, include the pre-messianic ones such as Judaism.. you really think it took more than 800+ years for the Bible's laws to be correctly interpreted?

 

[Julie.S]

I was raised Catholic and the priests I don't recall even talk about them much in church to be honest. Not everyone pays as much attention to them as some others do. It's more of a choice from what I have gathered over time. No one seems to enforce praying to them at least not for me. I tend to pray to God the most and always have.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I was raised Catholic and the priests I don't recall even talk about them much in church to be honest. Not everyone pays as much attention to them as some others do. It's more of a choice from what I have gathered over time. No one seems to enforce praying to them at least not for me. I tend to pray to God the most and always have.

That makes sense to me. If God is willing to hear our prayers through Christ, as the Bible frequently states, then why ought one to pray to dead people who might, or might not, be able to convey our prayers to God?