The Midge said:If Jesus is a man then he is liar deserving no respect or a lunatic but NOT a prohphet to be honoured and respected. That option simply isn't open to you. His teachings are invalid.
markie4u2001 said:Somebody said a lot of scholars don't even believe Jesus existed, i was looking for their post so i could quote it. No matter what else they think about Jesus I think most historians agree that he existed.Main articles: Hhttp://www.recipeland.com/encyclopaedia/index.php/Jesusistoricity of Jesus, Jesus and textual evidence
The written sources for knowledge about Jesus's life are Roman and Hebrew historical accounts like Josephus, the four canonical Gospels and several non-canonical gospels. Most historians, secular or otherwise, agree that the source documents on which the four canonical Gospels are based were written within living memory of Jesus's lifetime. They therefore accept that the accounts of the life of Jesus in those Gospels provide a reasonable basis of evidence, by the standards of ancient history, for the historical existence of Jesus and the basic facts of his life and death. A minority of historians argue that no such person as Jesus ever existed.
Muslim said:What are you talking about. All prophets are men. Unless you believe that prophets are super human or something.
peaceful soul said:Perhaps this will help you to understand:
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
In other words, God has integrity.
Yes, I understand the Christian viewpoint of Jesus. I was making a statement that the Jesus in Islam is a man.
Muslims do not consider him to be God, or the son of God, but only a richeous prophet and messenger of God.
Also, men have integrity.
Prophets don't lie, but they are not above repenting to God.
The prophet Muhammad used to ask God for forgiveness more than 100 times a day even though he was sinless.
Eternal_Believer said:Anyway i dont wanna argue reasoning because you only answered back 1 or 2 points i made yet u never did answer the question u answered to the point.
You only addressed the adultery issue which doesnt justify anything ok.
If your God has 70 wives, clearly hes a fornicator and adulterer who has lusts of the flesh.
Eternal_Believer said:And my main point here is.
What did your god ever do for you?
How do you know him in any personal way.
You claim hes merciful? Whats mercy let me ask you first.
Why do you need mercy?
You have never experienced your god in a personal way or in any way.
Neither do you have proof that he exists.
When you are broken and hurt you dont turn to him.
Eternal_Believer said:Yet I can say My God came to me to touch me and let me know He is God.
Jesus Christ touched my Life and planted His Holy Seed of the New Adamic Nature in me.
My Life is totally different.
I dont lust or hate or do many things of my former evil conduct.
I can feel His presence.
And I just know That Jesus Christ is God. He is the Son of God and yet God himself. His Father is my Father who loves me so much and i know him to a degree and I know the Holy Spirit.
But your religion muslims is dead. You dont know the god whom you serve and dont know if he exists.
Eternal_Believer said:And i want to make a point. Your Jihad is motivated by the works of the flesh. Lewdness, revelry, drunkeness, Easy way out of sins, uncleaness, fornicating.
Eternal_Believer said:And though you practice good works it does not save.
You say submission to God.
Why do you submit?
Because my dad's a muslim...
Eternal_Believer said:Can you say you LOVE your God? and i really mean deep LOVE equal or more than your most loved human being.
But then how can you love someone whom you dont know?
Eternal_Believer said:Finally How many of you can say you know your God.
Your Prayer is MECHANICAL.
Not dynamic.
Your talking to yourselves.
Eternal_Believer said:And you derive your arguments from Some1 elses experience.
If you arent blindly following the crowd then tell me what do you seek to find in Islam.
Wives? unlimited alchohol? LUSTS OF THE FLESH!
I can say i am a Christian not because i follow a crowd but because I experienced MY GOD. God the Father(In no way affiliated with your god), The Lord Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit. 3 in 1.
Eternal_Believer said:If i ask you why u are a muslim. Its because you were born into a muslim family.
Why would ANYBODY want to be a muslim? Give me a reason. You dont get to know your God. Prayer is pouring out your soul and communicating with the Creator God.
Eternal_Believer said:But you probably dont pour out your soul and you cant communicate with someone who doesnt exist. And you might want to dispute that but i say to you. DID YOU EVER COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR god?
nono dont lie to me i know u didnt.
peaceful soul said:That is so illogical to say. Evidently Mohammad does not understand the way that God works. Why does he have to ask so many times? Does not God hear him the 1st time?
peaceful soul said:Prophets sin and are just as capable of lying as you and me - except for one, Christ. He was supernatural because He was God incarnate. Prophets however, can not lie when they are carrying out God's missions. In those times, the Holy Spirit inspires them to do the will of God. As long as they do not resist the Spirit, they will not err. But, God is careful in whom He chooses for prophethood and considers this in their preparation.
It is a shame that you can not see that Mohammad was not sinless. Once a sin is committed, it can not be undone. It still stains the image of the person and still is an offense charged by God against that person. You do not understand what sin is and how offensive it is to God. Lying is a sin. A lie does not have to be verbal either.
The prophet Muhammad's wife and some of his companions asked him why he asked forgiveness from God and performed many acts of repentence even though he was sinless, and even though Allah had promised him that if he were to commit any sins in the future, he would forgive him.
The prophet Muhammad's response was "Shouldn't I show gratitude to Allah?"
The prophet Muhammad understood most of all that even if someone was sinless they were still dependent on Allah's mercy on the day of judgement.
No one's actions can get them into heaven. Rather it is the mercy of Allah which will elevate them to such a status.
Muslims don't believe that prophets can knowingly sin.
Sometimes they sin without realizing it and they instantly ask for forgiveness once they realize they have sinned.
Allah strengthens each of his prophets by giving them the support of two angels and a good jinn who suggest them to do good deeds.
Everyone else has two angels and an evil jinn.
Muslim said:Are you trying to say that the prophet Muhammad was Satan? Leave it to a Christian to resort to insults when faced with an argument that they cannot win.
Green Man said:Bevlina did not say Muhammad wasSatan.I believe what she was saying is Muhammad,as a man was tricked into believing he was right.Isn't Satan the ultimate deceiver?Isn't it possible that Muhammad,as a mere human could be deceived in such a manner?If I'm wrong,I'm sure Bevlina will correct me on my analysis.
peaceful soul said:You or other Muslims often criticize Christians as having a free ticket to sin when we say that Christ paid the penality for our sins. This appears to be on the same level. How do you defend this? Also, why would not Allah grant this to everyone who believed in him? I see a double standard here. Is Mohammad's faith somehow greater than another?
peaceful soul said:That does not answer the question of why do something that you are not guilty of? God does not honor such a request. He can only forgive those who have sinned, and Mohammad would not qualify as a sinner according to you.
Muslim said:Unless Satan can write or inspire a book like the Quran than it is impossible for the prophet Muhammad to have been influenced by him. You also have to ask yourself, what would the prophet Muhammad have to gain from forging the Quran? He was in the eyes of the Quraish the most noble of blood, because almost all of the Meccan rulers had been through his family line, the most resent being his grandfather. And through Islam his life became much more difficult. There were many restrictions placed on both the prophet Muhammad and his followers. Throughout his entire life the prophet Muhammad lived like a poor person. He barely had a few items in his house, and these were things like shoes, a comb, a cloak, and a leather pillow stuffed with hay. Even though the prophet Muhammad received a ton of money from his followers as charity, he never kept any of it. One time while he was preaching Islam in Mecca, the Pagan chiefs of Mecca gave a proposal to the prophet Muhammad that if he gave up Islam they would make him their ruler. But the prophet Muhammad refused. Why? Because he did not desire worldly power, but instead was fulled by his dedication to following the commandments of God and never faltering in spreading the message of Islam.
Muslim said:What are you talking about. All prophets are men. Unless you believe that prophets are super human or something.
Green Man said:Listen very carefully.You're twisting people's words around to give them meanings the writer never intended.No one said Satan wrote the Qur'an.I can't speak for anyone one else obviously,But the way I see it,Satan could have corrupted the Qur'an during translation in the process of writing it down.You say it's impossible for Muhammad to have been influenced by him. Why not?Was Muhammad God?Was he more than human?Is any mere human a match for the ultimate deceiver?BTW,no one in thread has accused Muhammad of forging anything.Be extremely careful about making baseless accusations.
Arthra said:Green man wrote:
Listen very carefully.You're twisting people's words around to give them meanings the writer never intended.No one said Satan wrote the Qur'an.I can't speak for anyone one else obviously,But the way I see it,Satan could have corrupted the Qur'an during translation in the process of writing it down.You say it's impossible for Muhammad to have been influenced by him.Why not?Was Muhammad God?Was he more than human?Is any mere human a match for the ultimate deceiver?BTW,no one in thread has accused Muhammad of forging anything.Be extremely careful about making baseless accusations.
My comment:
The problem with a statement like "Satan could have corrupted the Qur'an during translation in the process of writing it down..." is that the Qur'an was already being recited regularly by people during worship services and recited in it's entirety every Ramadan quite awhle before the standard order of Surihs was set down. Also scribes wrte portions of it as the Revelations were occuring. The Companions as well Ali had full knowledge of Qur'an and so there was no issue about any corruption of the Qur'an.
Prophet Muhammad was the vehicle God chose to use to reveal. No Moslem thinks of Muhammad as God. "Satan" had been busy enough corrupting the lives of the Arabian people during the age of ignorance so now God chose to allow that to go no further by using this corrupted people and transforming them into His Umma.
You're saying it's not possible for the ultimate deceiver to influence the Qur'an in this way?Isn't that exactly what he would want people to think?
I never said Muhammad was God.My point in asking the question was to emphasize the fact he was a man,therefore subject to being deceived.
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