Question about Hesychasm...

[Liveus Trueblood]

Hello, fellow Christians (hope that doesn't offend coming from outside the EO Faith).

I'd like to first say that I have been in a relationship with a woman that was inquiring into the Orthodox faith and has indeed recently become a catechumen, and is to be baptised in April (go figure). I want to marry this woman.

I originally just attended the church to "humor" her: eventually gaining control of the situation and converting her. However, despite having had initial problems with the Church in general, I have slowly "warmed up" to it. I have been more and more of an inquirer, and actually almost became a catechumen myself. But I realized that if this is the true faith, I ought only to become part of it because I really wanted to (not in terms of emotion, but conviction), not merely or even much because I wanted to marry that woman. I realized I want to serve God first, and Him through my future wife.

I unfortunately still have MANY problems with the Church, including the following:

From many outsiders' points of view, including my own, hesychasm looks like buddhist practices of prayer in many ways (i.e. special "psycophysical positions", matra [the Jesus prayer], prayer beads of sorts, "yoga" with God [yoga comes from Sanskrit word meaning "Union"...], and emptying of self, among possibly other things).

Is that untrue? If not, why is it not wrong? I don't bring this up to argue, but this has caused me to stumble much in my examination of the Orthodox Faith. By "stumble" I mean this issue combined with other issues has indeed feircely challenged my faith on all grounds; if I don't become Orthodox, there had better be a good reason for it, because the Orthodox faith seems like it has more and better "credentials" than any other "church" has or could have.

 

[E.C.]

Welcome to TAW!

Hello, fellow Christians (hope that doesn't offend coming from outside the EO Faith).

Nah. Why would it?

I unfortunately still have MANY problems with the Church, including the following:

From many outsiders' points of view, including my own, hesychasm looks like buddhist practices of prayer in many ways (i.e. special "psycophysical positions", matra [the Jesus prayer], prayer beads of sorts, "yoga" with God [yoga comes from Sanskrit word meaning "Union"...], and emptying of self, among possibly other things).

Is that untrue? If not, why is it not wrong? I don't bring this up to argue, but this has caused me to stumble much in my examination of the Orthodox Faith. By "stumble" I mean this issue combined with other issues has indeed feircely challenged my faith on all grounds; if I don't become Orthodox, there had better be a good reason for it, because the Orthodox faith seems like it has more and better "credentials" than any other "church" has or could have.

What is the Church for?

That is something to ask before going further here, but I'll give the answer.

The Church is the hospital for the soul. With the Fall of Man, Man's soul changed and was damaged from its original state with sin, much like a disease. The Church functions as the hospital to cure man's soul of the disease with Jesus Christ as the physician.

Hesychasm is a way of treating the disease.

The difference between Hesychasm in Orthodox Christianity and yoga in Buddhism is quite simple: Buddhism calls for the complete emptying of "self" (the Buddhist concept of "self" is more or less similar to the soul) and leaving the "self" to be like a water pitcher that's been emptied. Now the Orthodox understanding of salvation is that man's soul is to be cured of sin and the place where sin was to be replaced with the Holy Spirit. Orthodoxy is taking a water pitcher (the soul), throwing in the Church and ending up with Kool-Aid.

 

[Mikeb85]

First of all, hesychasm isn't meditation, isn't about prayer beads, yoga, etc... Hesychasm was defined because of those who said that philosophers knew God better than the prophets - in other words, knowledge of God versus knowing God personally. We get to know God personally through prayer.

Stuff like prayer ropes, standing position, etc..., help us concentrate. However they are utterly useless if we don't approach prayer with the proper intent. An example in my own life - I carry a prayer rope in my pocket to remind myself to pray, because often I get distracted by worldly matters...

As for the Jesus prayer, it's useful because it contains within it the essence of the gospel. Repeating it reminds us of this, though it's important to keep in mind that the amount of times we repeat it means nothing if we don't pray sincerely.

Hesychasm is simply the practice of praying quietly, in solitude, as Christ Himself did as an example to us. The externals are meant to be an aid, as us fallible humans are prone to distraction, but all that's really required is a contrite heart.

 

[Liveus Trueblood]

Thank you very much, E.C. and Mikeb85. Your answers helped me.

So is the outward resemblence totally coincidence, or is there some kind of "borrowed practice" from either party, or are the resemblences completely arbitrary, if even existent?

 

[Coralie]

Hey! To answer you question:

...is outward resemblence totally coincidence, or is there some kind of "borrowed practice" from either party, or are the resemblences completely arbitrary, if even existent?

...I thought I would go through the practices (i.e. resemblances) you list in your OP.

special "psycophysical positions"

In yoga, different body postures are considered important because of a belief in kundalini or life force (or whatever it's referred to as in the particular yogic branch) needing to be "coursed" through the body in a certain pattern or direction to effect a transformation of some kind. It's to control an physical-impersonal, supernatural force.

In EO, we stand in certain ways so that we remain alert during prayer--to avoid daydreaming and suchlike. The same reason that we sit facing the teacher in a classroom; it helps us hold our attention correctly. It's to use our bodies to boost our attentiveness--there's no supernatural magic juice that needs to "flow" through us to make us "one with God". Instead it's very similar to making eye contact with a person as we speak to them.

Note also that you don't have to stand/prostrate/etc. in order to be an EO Christian. These practices are recommended, since they're proven to be useful. Whereas in yoga, if you're not doing the postures, you're not a yogi (if that makes sense).

matra [the Jesus prayer]

An Eastern mantra is supposed to be a divine tone, a sound-vibration that, in and of itself (as a collection of sound waves) effects a supernatural transformation. It's connected to all sorts of ideas about sound frequencies and dimensions and yadda yadda. Again, it's about controlling/directing an physical-impersonal, supernatural force. It's not about communicating with God, but with manipulating a "life force".

In EO, the sound itself has no power. Remember that the Jesus Prayer itself has MANY versions--the soundwaves are meaningless; the communication, the words' meaning, and our heart's yearning are what make the prayer "powerful".

I put "powerful" in inverted commas because it's not the prayer that's powerful--it's Jesus who is powerful. We are talking to Jesus, in the simplest, most humble way we can--and we are allowing ourselves to be changed, slowly, into "righteous men" by practicing this humility (hence, God willing, one day our prayers "will avail much").

(sorry--lots of concepts packed into one paragraph there--hope it all makes sense.)

prayer beads of sorts

Beads have been around for many milennia. They have found their way into many religious traditions (since all cultures have beads, and all cultures have spiritual practices). The important thing is to see what they are used for...

In EO, they're primarily used to measure time spent praying. They're a monastic tool, originally used in solitary cells where a LOT of time could pass in prayer without the monk/nun knowing it. So beads help to mark out time spent.

Among those living in the world (my catechist comes to mind here), they are used to direct physical attention to prayer--much as standing and prostrations do (see above). The "touch" of the prayer rope helps the believer to stay "in the (physical) moment" with God, and not go off into daydreams.

As far as I can see, in Buddhist practice they are used for similar reasons--although they are saying mantras, and not praying humbly to the person Jesus, as they work through their beads. These two things are completely different, and are based in totally different ideas of God. (See above.)

"yoga" with God [yoga comes from Sanskrit word meaning "Union"...]

These two things are vastly different. The fact is, Buddhist and Christian ideas of God are so different, it's impossible to reconcile the two.

Yogic union is about dissolving into the impersonal "life force" "God" of Buddhist cosmology. It's about getting rid of your individual personality; a drop of water merging into a vast ocean.

Theosis is about becoming like the incarnation of the Triune God, Jesus Christ, a man-God with all the human qualities, and eventually living in a community with the Triune God (and all the Saints) in Heaven. Individuality is retained within that community--but each has "put on Christ". As you know, the idea of taking on Christ's nature is well-attested in Pauline Scripture particularly. It's nothing controversial.

This might help you understand too: there is a distinction in EO between the essence of God and His energies.

We can never know God's essence--His God-ness.

But we can know His energies--His goodness--His qualities, His love, His mercy, His grace. (That's a hugely simplified version of the Truth, sorry!)

The Buddhist, in a sense, seeks to unify with "God-ness"--that unknowable, all-seeing, all-powerful power that undergirds the Universe. Understandly, they hold that this is a type of obliteration.

In EO, on the other hand, we strive to become human images of God's goodness--i.e., like Our Lord Jesus Christ. To transform into the pure images of God, like Adam and Eve before the Fall. In this way we are prepared for Heaven, to live eternally in the presence of God--a new Eden. I.e. we are not absorbed into Him. We are not obliterated. We become like Him and are drawn near to Him, and one day live with Him.

(MORE EXPERIENCED ORTHODOX PLEASE CORRECT/EXPAND ON THIS!! This is just MY understanding, picked up from my catechesis.)

emptying of self

See above. In Buddhism, you are emptying your mind in order to perceive a higher "reality". This is COMPLETELY different to EO.

Simply put, when we talk about "emptying ourselves", we are following this from Philippians 2:

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

We are talking about emptying ourselves of our sinful nature and selfish impulses, so that we can hear the word of the Lord and keep it. We are emptying ourselves of those things that make it difficult for Jesus to live in our hearts. But we are still images of God--so we don't have to be obliterated in order to become like God!

______________________________________________________________

I really hope this helps! Some religious traditions might contain what appear to be "versions" of these practices, but when you find out what the intention and thought behind them, their true nature becomes much clearer.

I mean, the Cross was a common symbol before Christianity--that doesn't mean it's a symbol that we're anything but Christian though! And other religions have holy books--does that mean the Bible isn't Christian? Most all religions say thou shalt not kill... all religions have community celebrations and meetings... marriage takes place in all non-Christian cultures... etc., etc., ad infinitum.

 

[Mytheodos]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]............[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]"Silence is a mystery of the age to come" St. Isaak of Syria[/SIZE][/FONT]................​

Library of Books, Articles and Links on Hesychasm

​

Here's the link...
Hesychasm Library

 

[E.C.]

Thank you very much, E.C. and Mikeb85. Your answers helped me.

So is the outward resemblence totally coincidence, or is there some kind of "borrowed practice" from either party, or are the resemblences completely arbitrary, if even existent?

Well, as Orthodox Christians we can not say where the Holy Spirit does not work (that would be blasphemy), but we do know that He works within the Church.
Is it possible that Buddhist yoga could be an avenue of the Holy Spirit's to bring a Buddhist to the Church? Certainly.

Personally, I think that any outward resemblance, similarity or parallel is either completely coincidental or God working as a way to help bring Buddhists and Hindus to Him in the Church.

 

[Andrew21091]

On prayer ropes. They are used as previously said for the person saying the prayer can keep track of how many he has said. They also help with concentration. I believe the prayer rope was first invented by St. Pachomius. Monks were assigned to complete a certain number of prayers and prostrations and the prayer rope helped to count the prayers and it made it easier since they could carry it with them at all times to remind them to follow the Biblical command to "pray without ceasing" (1 Thess 5:17). Before that, to count prayers, monks would throw rocks in a bowl or something else but the prayer rope later gave them an easier was to count their prayers and to focus.

The words of the Jesus prayer should not just be said as empty but they should be said from the heart but to be able to have this prayer from the heart, one first has to have mental prayer mening to have understanding what they are praying. The purpose of the prayer is to be in communication with God at all times. In Psalm 34 (Psalm 33 according to the Septuagint) it says, "I will bless the LORD at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth." Psalm 130 (129) says: "Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD." The Jesus Prayer is a simple prayer (and at the same time, very complex) that reminds us when we say it of God's mercy.

Check out this video where the holy Romanian Elder Cleopa talks about prayer. He talks briefly on the stages of the prayer as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOGXdLoNl2w

 

[Mikeb85]

Well, as Orthodox Christians we can not say where the Holy Spirit does not work (that would be blasphemy), but we do know that He works within the Church.
Is it possible that Buddhist yoga could be an avenue of the Holy Spirit's to bring a Buddhist to the Church? Certainly.

Personally, I think that any outward resemblance, similarity or parallel is either completely coincidental or God working as a way to help bring Buddhists and Hindus to Him in the Church.

Having known people who have engaged in Buddhist and Hindu meditation, and having investigated it myself, I can fairly confidently say their meditation is not prayer to God... St. Ignatius Brianchaninov writes (in 'The Arena') that asceticism without following the gospel leads to delusion. So when those of other faiths practice asceticism, or meditation, etc..., in forms similar to ours, but without Christ - they're sowing seeds, gaining mystical 'experiences', but deluding themselves...

Certainly it's possible for God to touch people of other faiths, but knowing the fruits of Hindu/Buddhist meditation, usually their 'mystical experiences' are of such a nature that they're not of God...

Anyhow, similarities are often coincidental, but also there to deceive... An old saying I've heard - no one counterfeits a brown paper bag...

 

[Liveus Trueblood]

Thank you Coralie, E.C., Andrew21091, and Mikeb85; you've all been exceedingly helpful! And Mytheodos, thank you very much for the link, it should prove to be beneficial.

One last clarification, for now. Coralie (or others): The "positions" I was speaking of were not those of attentive standing and prostration (I've developed a deep appreciation of these practices), but those of hesychasm exclusively, which "may involve specific body postures and be accompanied by very deliberate breathing patterns" -wikipedia on hesychasm.

I apologize for pushing this matter so incessantly. Thanks again, everyone.

 

[E.C.]

Having known people who have engaged in Buddhist and Hindu meditation, and having investigated it myself, I can fairly confidently say their meditation is not prayer to God... St. Ignatius Brianchaninov writes (in 'The Arena') that asceticism without following the gospel leads to delusion. So when those of other faiths practice asceticism, or meditation, etc..., in forms similar to ours, but without Christ - they're sowing seeds, gaining mystical 'experiences', but deluding themselves...

Certainly it's possible for God to touch people of other faiths, but knowing the fruits of Hindu/Buddhist meditation, usually their 'mystical experiences' are of such a nature that they're not of God...

Anyhow, similarities are often coincidental, but also there to deceive... An old saying I've heard - no one counterfeits a brown paper bag...

I'm not giving validity to Buddhist or Hindu ways or beliefs. After reading "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" my opinion is pretty firm on those two religions. After rereading my post I realized "uh oh, someone may think I'm advocating Buddhism here... I should clarify that".

What I was meaning was something more along the lines of if Joe Buddhist gets interested in Christianity but as a person can not live with a religion that does not allow, say, prayerful repetitions. Joe Buddhist being a Buddhist knew his mantra, but turns Orthodox as opposed to Protestant because he was able to replace his Buddhist mantra with the Jesus Prayer. All Truth and theological bits aside regarding the Jesus Prayer and Buddhist mantras, Joe's transition to Orthodoxy is relatively easy because he is able to swap the repetition of one prayer for another instead of having to abandon any notion of prayerful repetitions since he's done his mantra his whole life.

I know what I'm thinking here, I just don't think I can articulate it very well.

Thank you Coralie, E.C., Andrew21091, and Mikeb85; you've all been exceedingly helpful! And Mytheodos, thank you very much for the link, it should prove to be beneficial.

One last clarification, for now. Coralie (or others): The "positions" I was speaking of were not those of attentive standing and prostration (I've developed a deep appreciation of these practices), but those of hesychasm exclusively, which "may involve specific body postures and be accompanied by very deliberate breathing patterns" -wikipedia on hesychasm.

I apologize for pushing this matter so incessantly. Thanks again, everyone.

In the book "Way of the Pilgrim" (excellent read!) the Pilgrim goes around the Russian Empire repeating the Jesus Prayer and surviving off of God's mercy and man's goodwill. At one point, he has been doing this practice non-stop for so long that when he breathes in, he says the first part of the prayer, "Lord Jesus Christ Son of God" and when he breathes out he says the last part of the prayer, "Have mercy upon me a sinner".

I believe that wikipedia (blegh!) may have been referring to something similar to that. It is a practice best undertaken under the direction of one's spiritual father.

 

[Mikeb85]

Thank you Coralie, E.C., Andrew21091, and Mikeb85; you've all been exceedingly helpful! And Mytheodos, thank you very much for the link, it should prove to be beneficial.

One last clarification, for now. Coralie (or others): The "positions" I was speaking of were not those of attentive standing and prostration (I've developed a deep appreciation of these practices), but those of hesychasm exclusively, which "may involve specific body postures and be accompanied by very deliberate breathing patterns" -wikipedia on hesychasm.

I apologize for pushing this matter so incessantly. Thanks again, everyone.

The breathing patterns that monks use when they say the Jesus prayer are meant to help them say it in such a way that it becomes second nature - the whole idea is to pray literally, without ceasing. All the 'techniques' are simply meant as aids to achieve this end (unceasing prayer) though the techniques themselves have no meaning, and are not even necessary...

For this reason it's important that people who undertake a prayer rule understand the goal and meaning of prayer - those who pray with the wrong intent are at risk of falling into delusion...

And wikipedia, while good for broad research, often misses the point, or generalizes things too much (on many subjects).

 

[frmichael]

The patterns and positions of hesychasm are particularly monastic, meant for the monk in his cell. As a hieromonk, I can say that the positions are entirely related to keeping the monk's attention on the business in hand - that of praying. They in no way whatsoever reflect anything like the Buddhist ideas of energy flowing. Please do not confuse these ideas - their "likeness" is coincidental. Having recently assisted a Masters student in his comparison with Buddhist philosophy, the apparent similarity was clear to me as apparent only - the positions of hesychasm are entirely meant to focus the mind of the monk. Monks - like all human beings - are liable to wandering minds. When I was eremitic (before being given a worldly job by the Bishop) I spent time in my solitary cell and a wandering mind is indeed a danger - hence the attention to calming and focussing positions - which incidentally are not mandatory - and for some individuals are entirely unnecessary.

Fr. Michael

Fr. Michael

 

[MariaRegina]

The patterns and positions of hesychasm are particularly monastic, meant for the monk in his cell. As a hieromonk, I can say that the positions are entirely related to keeping the monk's attention on the business in hand - that of praying. They in no way whatsoever reflect anything like the Buddhist ideas of energy flowing. Please do not confuse these ideas - their "likeness" is coincidental. Having recently assisted a Masters student in his comparison with Buddhist philosophy, the apparent similarity was clear to me as apparent only - the positions of hesychasm are entirely meant to focus the mind of the monk. Monks - like all human beings - are liable to wandering minds. When I was eremitic (before being given a worldly job by the Bishop) I spent time in my solitary cell and a wandering mind is indeed a danger - hence the attention to calming and focussing positions - which incidentally are not mandatory - and for some individuals are entirely unnecessary.

Fr. Michael

Fr. Michael

Father Bless!

Thanks, Father Michael for joining CF and posting here.
When temptations assault a person who is trying to pray the Jesus Prayer, what can you recommend?

 

[frmichael]

I can of course, only speak from my own experience and my answers may or may not have any relevance to others.

When sitting at my prayer desk facing the Altar and praying with my prayer rope - almost inevitably - in every session - I will find my attention wandering. What is most tempting is to wander to "quite legitimate" Church matters - how some penitent is faring - what is to be done at the next Liturgy - that sort of thing. But of course these wanderings are not legitimate at all. The beginning of the wandering is however very subtle. It can be triggered just by some feature of the church building.

At one stage - when I was eremitic, I had a prayer room that had absolutely nothing in it - i could sit with the door behind me with just the pale grey walls and pale grey curtains across the window (also out of my direct sight). That helped to keep me focussed, but it was by no means infallible. I could only emphatically move my mind back as soon as I realised that I had digressed. Perhaps others have found better ways - if so I would be glad to learn.

Fr. Michael