Question about Heaven and Hell

[MikeMcK]

Your quite welcome! I know what it is like to be a "Born Again" "Christian" who does not believe in the false doctrine of Hell.

So then, why do you believe that the Bible teaches it?

But when Christians (as sincere as they may be) start in on "God is loving, but He is also a just God" and then justify the endless torture of those He created and loves that just deserves a rebuke.

OK. Show me from scripture where I'm wrong and I will gladly repent and change my teaching.

 

[MikeMcK]

Mike,

Thanks for your responses. I did indeed repent long ago and accept Jesus as my savior.

And where does the Bible say that we're to accept Jesus as our savior?

Whether or not it was "sincere enough" to qualify for "eternal security" (if such a thing existed) is not for anyone else to judge.

I disagree. Jesus told us that we can know by the fruit that someone is producing whether or not they're saved.

I know it is common for evangelical Christians to say that if you abandon Christianity, you must never have believed in the first place.

Not at all.

Like I said, Christianity and being born again are not the same thing.

I think perhaps I may have contributed to the confusion by using the two terms interchangably. It's a very common thing to do, but it's actually incorrect.

You can very easily be a Christian and turn away from it. That has nothing to do with eternal security. The question is, are you born again?

I'm not allowed to say here that you're not, but hopefully the mods will let me say that the Bible does say that if one is born again, they will not and, if they do, then they're not born again.

I know in my heart I was sincere at the time, whether you believe it or not.

I have no doubt that you were sincere. Just like Mormons are sincere, Jehovah's Witnesses are sincere, etc.

Many people are sincerely trying to follow God according to their own ideas and ideologies. It doesn't matter how sincere someone may be. If they're not doing what the Bible says, then they're just sincerely wrong.

And I grew up in an evangelical church which taught the Bible was the 100% inerrant Word of God (it was an Evangelical Free Church, to be exact, if you want to look up the denomination). The only thing controversial about this church was that they took things a step further than some churches and believed in predestination. But they most certainly taught the Bible and salvation the way you believe it should be taught, predestination aside.

And how did they do that?

There really is no point in debating all that you say here since I know you are very strong in your beliefs

It has nothing to do with my beliefs or your beliefs. It's all about what the Bible says. The Bible tells us that there is a Hell, it is eternal, it is hot, and those who die as enemies of God will go there.

All I can say is that we are at an impasse since I simply do not agree with you. In my opinion, no loving God (even a "righteous" God) would allow a place of eternal torture to exist for any of the beings he has created.

Exactly! The key words in your post being, "in my opinion".

You're free to disagree with God's word and to have another opinion, if you like, but the bottom line is that it comes down to your opinion verses God's opinion and that is simply not a fight that you're going to win.

I am very solid in this belief, so solid that indeed I am thankfully no longer worried about myself or my son going to hell

So, on what grounds do you disagree with Jesus' teaching?

I will not believe what I perceive to be a faulty and cruel doctrine simply out of fear, a loving God would never expect that of me or anyone.

Once again, it comes down to your opinion. What makes you believe that your opinion is right, while God's opinion is wrong?

I DO consider myself a Christian again, though not by your definition,

Are you born again?

A couple of very important questions that I notice you didn't answer:

1. So, if the Bible is not to be trusted, then back when you say that you were a Christian, what were you basing that claim on?

2. "Deep in your heart"? This is the same heart that the Bible calls "deceitful" and "wicked", is it not?

3. Why? You're claiming that [your parents are] more righteous and more just than God. So why not more compassionate?

 

[BridgeBuilder]

This thread is heating up and I'm not sure the moderators will allow this intense of a debate. I'm going to let it be their call whether it should continue on this course.

You don't even believe anything I say, so it really doesn't matter how I respond. By your standard, heaven help the people out there who DO believe in hell and who can't even be "sure" they are "born again" because you keep mincing words. Do I need to quote John 3:16 to you (what I would consider "the basics")? It's not complicated, and you should know that. I did not grow up in a Mormon church, I did not grow up in a Jehovah's Witness church, I grew up in a mainline evangelical church that preached the gospel as you know it. John 3:16, that's all I have to say regarding what I was taught regarding being "born again". The basics. Enough said.

And as for my "fruits", you don't even know me, except by your harsh judgements of my "words". Most people I know just ASSUME I must be a Fundamentalist because of the life I lead. In fact, they often ask me where I go to church because I seem to be such a "good Christian" (and yes, these are people who go to conservative evangelical churches). I know you believe "all works are filthy rags" and I don't believe in "earning one's way into heaven" either (I don't think anyone needs to earn their way into heaven), but I also volunteer hours each week in my community, and people do notice, not to mention I do my best to radiate the love of God through me to everyone I meet. So don't think you can judge my "fruits" without knowing anything about me, just because I disagree with your doctrines.

As for why I disagree with your doctrines (or the doctrines I was taught in my youth), I no longer believe the Bible is the 100% inerrant Word of God. I know that upsets you, but that's my belief. If you want to believe it is the 100% inerrant Word of God, you certainly have every right to do so. Just as I have a right to disagree.

Am I "born again"? I'm posting as a non-Christian because I KNOW you wouldn't consider me born again anymore, based on what I know very thoroughly about the doctrines you follow. Was I ever "born again" by your standards. Yes.

As to your questions:

1. I'm willing to concede I may not be a Christian at this time since I'm in the process of re-learning about Jesus all over again, as I haven't been to church or read the Bible in several years. If you read my earlier post, you will see that I just started going back to church. (And no, I'm not so silly to believe that "going to church" makes one Christian, but I do know I'm in a learning process right now, studying who Jesus is all over again.) I would like to think of myself as a "liberal" Christian because I have great respect for the loving words of Jesus, but I can see how others might say I'm not at this time due to the John 3:16 standard (and I'm not sure what I think about John 3:16 anymore).

2. By your doctrines and the doctrines I was taught as a child, if you can't trust yourself to honestly repent and accept that Jesus died for your sins, then NOBODY can be sure whether they are going to hell or not. That's a very dangerous line you are walking, mincing words, doubting whether people have "really" repented and become "born again". This is the sort of thing that makes evangelical Christianity so burdensome, if you can't ever be SURE you believe "enough in your heart" to be saved. Yes I know that verse in the Bible about the "wicked" and "deceitful" heart. I guess nobody can really know if they are saved by those standards. That is very sad, given the penalty according to you is eternal torture.

3. I don't believe in the wrathful, judgemental, vengeful, jealous God depicted in parts of the Bible. Do I need to remind you that I don't believe in the 100% inerrancy of the Bible? So if something in the Bible doesn't make sense to me, I question it. I guess that's another reason why you would say the answer to question #1 must be "No" by your standards. When I said my parents would behave better than God, that doesn't make sense, does it? That's because it is a contradiction, one that proves to me that the wrathful, angry God in the Bible is not the God of Love I know. One that proves to me at least that the Bible is not 100% inerrant (just to me, you have a right to believe whatever you want). You say it's MY opinion versus GOD's opinion. I beg to differ since you are only talking about the wrathful God depicted in parts of the Bible. I don't believe that the wrathful God portrayed in parts of the Bible is indeed God (again, MY opinion), so how can my opinion differ with a God who I think is mythical. I DO believe in God, but the God I believe in is Love (who also happens to make an appearance in the Bible, interestingly enough).

OK, enough said. If the moderators want to shut this thread down, I respect their judgement. I hope I was able to state this in the appropriate way. I feel your post on the other hand came very close to being a personal attack, but I will "turn the other cheek" as a Christian should.

I respect that you sincerely believe what you do. My entire family believes as you do, and I love them very much. I know it is hard to come across someone like me who doesn't believe what you do because in >your< heart you believe it to be the truth. I can respect that. May the love of God touch you this Christmas season in whatever way is most meaningful to you.

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

 

[BridgeBuilder]

I just woke up from a dream, and I thought I would share the basic message before I forget it. I can't really remember all the details of the dream, except that I was in a dispute of some kind. But then I heard the words "focus on the love of God", and I knew that God had reasons for the dispute that was taking place. Could I trust God in this? That was the question being posed to me. And then I felt this tremendous love for me personally, so overwhelming it brought me to tears.

And that was it. I'm not going to put any interpretation on this dream AT ALL. Some of you might surmise I would immediately say "Oh, she is going to say God is on HER side in this." and now she's trying to tell us she is having dreams to confirm it. No, I'm not going to say that. The only message that seemed to be conveyed by this dream is that God has a reason for these talks we are having together, that's all. And also that the love of God is very important. I know everyone here believes in the love of God, so maybe we should all take a deep breath and just trust God that we are talking for a reason.

I have my Bible with me at the moment (a New International version) and I just turned to a page in Psalms that says "For the sake of my brothers and friends, I will say 'Peace be within you.'" (Psalm 122:8) Take that however you choose.

And now I have just turned to another section in the Book of John: "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." (John 14:25-27)

Last night, I was reading the Book of John. I was asked in this thread what I was taught in my upbringing in the evangelical church I keep insisting I attended. I only need to turn to the Book of John to be reminded, as it is all there, especially in the third chapter (not just John 3:16 alone, the entire third chapter is especially key in expressing what I was taught). I read the whole third chapter last night. And yes, that church believed every word of the Book of John (indeed the entire Bible) is 100% true. That's what I was taught in my youth.

In fact, I had a health crisis about 6 years ago when I went back to an evangelical church at the time. I ever repented on my knees in the presence of 3 other evangelical Christians at the time (who were helping me). I was very sincere at the time, although influenced by the health issues I was experiencing since I felt very ill at the time. Did I truly repent and fully believe Jesus had died for my sins? I certainly do believe I was sincere at the time. Did I feel I was "born again"? Yes, after I repented, a tremendous sense of peace filled me. I even felt better physically, much stronger actually.

So "What happened?", I know you evangelicals must be asking? Well, as I started to feel better, I started to attend a women's Bible Study. This was an evangelical church that indeed believed the Bible was the inerrant Word of God. But at the Bible Study, I started to question various things I read, and I shared that with the group. Often I was in tears because I was having such a hard time holding on to the belief that the Bible was 100% inerrant (all the women in this Bible study believed it was inerrant). The women were very supportive, often praying with me, trying to help. Eventually I went to talk to one of the ministers as well, and the minister tried to help and prayed with me as well. But it just didn't work for me. I just kept questioning, and eventually, as my health continued to improve, I fell away from the church again.

OK, you evangelicals may say "What a 'fair weather' Christian!". How could she do turn her back on Jesus like that? But I'm just being honest and telling you what happened, even if you judge me for it. Whether you believe I actually was "born again" or not doesn't matter. (I also feel I was "born again" as a child around the age of 8 or so perhaps. And I was quite dedicated by the time I was baptized at the age of 11. It was only later in my teen years that I really began to question things. Those of you with children in the church know what it is like to believe as a child. It is a simple faith, but it can also be very real too.)

And now I just turned to the following verse: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." (Romans 7:28)

I guess we just all need to trust God that this conversation is happening for a reason. That's what I'm doing now. You may think that verse I just read in Romans doesn't apply to me since I have "fallen away" . That's ok if you believe that, I don't mind, it seems even the most conservative believer among us just needs to trust right now that all things are working for good here.

I will continue to read the Bible. I had stopped reading it several years ago after my questions just overwhelmed me (and yes, I stopped going to church too), but now I can read the Bible again. And I'm definitely going back to church on Sunday. In fact, I'm really looking forward to going back to church.

May the Love of God be With us All,
BridgeBuilder

 

[MikeMcK]

This thread is heating up and I'm not sure the moderators will allow this intense of a debate. I'm going to let it be their call whether it should continue on this course.

Nobody's debating. I'm just asking you a couple of questions.

You don't even believe anything I say, so it really doesn't matter how I respond.

If I didn't believe you, I wouldn't still be talking to you.

By your standard, heaven help the people out there who DO believe in hell and who can't even be "sure" they are "born again" because you keep mincing words.

How do you believe I'm mincing words?

Do I need to quote John 3:16 to you (what I would consider "the basics")? It's not complicated, and you should know that. I did not grow up in a Mormon church, I did not grow up in a Jehovah's Witness church, I grew up in a mainline evangelical church that preached the gospel as you know it. John 3:16, that's all I have to say regarding what I was taught regarding being "born again". The basics. Enough said.

John 3:16 doesn't save anybody. It's only a thumbnail sketch of the Gospel. Just a synposis.

And as for my "fruits", you don't even know me, except by your harsh judgements of my "words".

I haven't judged you or your words at all. I'm just asking you questions to find out where you're coming from.

So don't think you can judge my "fruits" without knowing anything about me, just because I disagree with your doctrines.

Actually, I haven't judged your fruits at all.

As for why I disagree with your doctrines (or the doctrines I was taught in my youth), I no longer believe the Bible is the 100% inerrant Word of God. I know that upsets you, but that's my belief. If you want to believe it is the 100% inerrant Word of God, you certainly have every right to do so. Just as I have a right to disagree.

You know, this is getting a little annoying.

You keep saying things like "I know you're going to say..." and "I know you believe..." and "I know this upsets you..." and "I know you this and I know you that...", and then you claim that I'm the one judging you.

Seems just a little hypocritical to me.

Am I "born again"? I'm posting as a non-Christian because I KNOW you wouldn't consider me born again anymore, based on what I know very thoroughly about the doctrines you follow.

And here you go again. You really don't know anything about the doctrines I follow.

I keep trying to explain to you that it has nothing to do with my doctrines or my beliefs or my opinions. It all comes down to what the Bible says.

Was I ever "born again" by your standards. Yes.

But were you born again by the Bible's standards? If you were, then it's only fair to ask you what the fruit of this born again experience is and how I am to reconcile your claim with the Bible's teaching.

As to your questions:

1. I'm willing to concede I may not be a Christian at this time since I'm in the process of re-learning about Jesus all over again, as I haven't been to church or read the Bible in several years.

Well, going back to the issue of the fruit that you're producing, these would be considered bad fruits.

The Bible tells us that when we're born again, we'll have a desire for God's word and the fellowship of His people.

You simply cannot claim to be born again, and yet, have no desire to be a part of the Body of Christ.

This is the sort of thing that makes evangelical Christianity so burdensome, if you can't ever be SURE you believe "enough in your heart" to be saved.

Actually, I believe you're thinking of Roman Catholicism. They don't believe that you can ever know for sure that you're saved.

The Bible is very clear that you can have the assurrance of salvation.

That is very sad, given the penalty according to you is eternal torture.

Not according to me. According to God.

3. I don't believe in the wrathful, judgemental, vengeful, jealous God depicted in parts of the Bible. Do I need to remind you that I don't believe in the 100% inerrancy of the Bible? So if something in the Bible doesn't make sense to me, I question it. I guess that's another reason why you would say the answer to question #1 must be "No" by your standards. When I said my parents would behave better than God, that doesn't make sense, does it? That's because it is a contradiction, one that proves to me that the wrathful, angry God in the Bible is not the God of Love I know. One that proves to me at least that the Bible is not 100% inerrant (just to me, you have a right to believe whatever you want). You say it's MY opinion versus GOD's opinion. I beg to differ since you are only talking about the wrathful God depicted in parts of the Bible. I don't believe that the wrathful God portrayed in parts of the Bible is indeed God (again, MY opinion), so how can my opinion differ with a God who I think is mythical. I DO believe in God, but the God I believe in is Love (who also happens to make an appearance in the Bible, interestingly enough).

Then you've created a God in your own image, thus violating the law of God and showing us that you're producing more fruit inconsistent with someone who's been born again.

I feel your post on the other hand came very close to being a personal attack, but I will "turn the other cheek" as a Christian should.

Then by all means, report it to the moderators.

My entire family believes as you do, and I love them very much. I know it is hard to come across someone like me who doesn't believe what you do because in >your< heart you believe it to be the truth.

Oh yes, you know that we Christians are nothing but intolerant, bigoted rednecks who just can't stand the idea that somebody may disagree with us.

 

[BridgeBuilder]

Nobody's debating. I'm just asking you a couple of questions.

And I answered them to the best of my ability.

How do you believe I'm mincing words?

I'll let others who read this thread assess that. You keep asking me to define my terms. I was an evangelical once. I understand what words like "born again" mean. But you insist I keep defining and defining. Look in the Bible, the definitions are all in there, I don't need to restate every one. We come from a common frame of reference, but you refuse to believe that.

John 3:16 doesn't save anybody. It's only a thumbnail sketch of the Gospel. Just a synposis.

OF COURSE it is a synopsis. It is a SINGLE verse. I'm not going to quote all the gospels to you on this forum. You are mincing words again by questioning every little thing I say, even something so basic as to say John 3:16 is a good representation of the "basics" of what evangelical Christians believe. John 3:17 is a good one too. Actually the whole chapter of John 3 covers it quite well. But I'm not going to quote all of that here.

I haven't judged you or your words at all. I'm just asking you questions to find out where you're coming from.

That is your perception. To me, it has come across as judgemental. But I will accept your word that it was not your intent to judge me.

Actually, I haven't judged your fruits at all.

OK, I'll accept that, thank you. Perhaps I misconstrued your words.

You keep saying things like "I know you're going to say..." and "I know you believe..." and "I know this upsets you..." and "I know you this and I know you that...", and then you claim that I'm the one judging you.

Seems just a little hypocritical to me.

Fine, I'll stop trying to interpret your words.

And here you go again. You really don't know anything about the doctrines I follow.

I keep trying to explain to you that it has nothing to do with my doctrines or my beliefs or my opinions. It all comes down to what the Bible says.

This gets tricky since the Bible says many things, some of which are contradictory to me. But yes, I understand where you are coming from here. I'm making assumptions that you believe the same way as my parents (who are evangelicals), and that may not be the case. I'm just trying to establish a basis where you understand that I know where you are coming from, but apparently you think you are as misperceived as I feel I'm misperceived. OK, I can accept that.

But were you born again by the Bible's standards? If you were, then it's only fair to ask you what the fruit of this born again experience is and how I am to reconcile your claim with the Bible's teaching.

Yes, I was "born again" by the Bible's standards, or how I believe you interpret the Bible. Again, this gets tricky since it all depends on how you interpret the Bible (at least that's what I think).

Well, going back to the issue of the fruit that you're producing, these would be considered bad fruits.

I no longer claim to be "born again" by the evangelical interpretation of the Bible, but I did once. That was then, this is now. I actually know there are verses in the Bible to support your position that once you are in the Body of Christ, you can never leave if you were truly saved. In fact, I was just reading Romans about that this morning. But again, I don't believe the Bible to be 100% inerrant. So I do understand where you are coming from, as it is Biblical what you are saying.

The Bible tells us that when we're born again, we'll have a desire for God's word and the fellowship of His people.

You simply cannot claim to be born again, and yet, have no desire to be a part of the Body of Christ.

I USED to claim to be born again by evangelical Biblical standards. And back then, I DID desire to be part of the evangelical community. And interestingly enough, if you have read other parts of this thread, I'm going to church again, but I don't claim to be "born again" by the way evangelical Christians interpret the Bible. I actually do think I'm being "born again" in other ways, but not the way evangelicals interpret the Bible. There are many ways people can interpret the Bible, so it gets very difficult to say things like "Well how it says in the Bible".

Actually, I believe you're thinking of Roman Catholicism. They don't believe that you can ever know for sure that you're saved.

The Bible is very clear that you can have the assurrance of salvation.

There you go again, implying that I misunderstand evangelical Christianity. I was NOT a Roman Catholic (I have heard that works are very important to Roman Catholics, that is not what I'm saying). I was NOT a Mormon. I was NOT a Jehovah's Witness. I was an evangelical Christian.

What I'm saying here is very subtle actually. You questioned whether I could trust my "heart" that I truly repented and accepted that Jesus died on the cross for my sins (and please don't start "mincing my words" again here or I'll stop saying anything and just quote scripture). My question here is how can you ever know that you "believe strongly enough" to be saved if you can't trust your heart? This has nothing to do with the "works can earn your way into heaven" doctrine that some say Catholics believe (I'm not going to even try to address what Catholics believe since I really don't know for sure, but I have heard my mother criticize the "works" doctrine of Catholics plenty of times.)

Not according to me. According to God.

Only according to the God that you believe in. I don't believe in that God, even though parts of the Bible depict that God. Again, I repeat, I do not believe in the 100% inerrancy of the Bible. The Bible also talks about a very loving God, that's the one I focus upon.

Then you've created a God in your own image, thus violating the law of God and showing us that you're producing more fruit inconsistent with someone who's been born again.

Again, did I say I was still "born again" by evangelical standards (unless we start debating eternal security, which gets complicated)? This is also your evaluation of what "fruit" means. I think you can also see "fruit" in how a person leads their life, not just in their words, in fact that is MY interpretation of that verse.

Then by all means, report it to the moderators.

I have no desire to report you, as it did not cross the line. It just came close. I'll let the moderators decide, since they are no doubt monitoring this thread. I don't particularly like the tone it is taking, and I'm doing my best to keep things as respectful as possible.

Oh yes, you know that we Christians are nothing but intolerant, bigoted rednecks who just can't stand the idea that somebody may disagree with us.

I'm simply interpreting the "fruits" of your words to me, my interpretation, I admit. Perhaps my perception is incorrect, I'm willing to concede that in the spirit of God's love for all of us and Jesus' instruction to us to love our neighbors. And I never said you were an "intolerant, bigoted redneck". Those are YOUR words, not mine, and they are rather inflammatory. In fact, I said that I love my family very much, and they are evangelical Christians who believe the Bible to be 100% inerrant. I also happen to respect my family and I honor their right to believe as they do. I'll let others reading this thread evaluate if anyone is coming across as intolerant. That's not for me to say.

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

 

[calidog]

Recently I had an online conversation with my sister, who is an evangelical "Fundamentalist" Christian. I too was an evangelical Christian once, as is my entire family. You see, I love my sister dearly and she loves me. She fears that I am going to hell because I am what some of you might term a "New Ager". In her eyes, I have rejected "the Word of God", although she and my mother place some hope in the doctrine of "eternal security" (i.e., "eternal security" is the belief that once you are saved, you will always be saved, even if you eventually choose to reject the evangelical perception of Jesus dying for your sins).

And so we had a conversation. It was about hell. Because I believe that despite what the Bible says, hell cannot possibly exist.

I'm sure all of you have heard the argument that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist. It is a "traditional" argument regarding hell and has often been discussed in many a sermon. Generally, the evangelical Christian response to that argument is that God loves us so much that he has given us free will, so that we can choose whether to be with Him or not. And besides, he loved us enough to send his son to die for us so we could be delivered from hell if we only repent and believe, etc....These arguments do not ring true for me, but they do for some. As for me, I KNOW deep in my heart that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist. A truly loving God would not even send THE DEVIL to hell, for do you think for one moment (assuming for now that the devil exists) that God does not love the devil too? Is not the devil indeed like God's prodigal son? But I digress...And let's assume we are using the "traditional" Biblical definition of hell, where people burn in agony in a lake of fire, apart from God for eternity. (Some evangelicals "soften" the definition of hell, saying that perhaps there isn't an eternal fire, perhaps you are just apart from God, or maybe you just cease to exist altogether - we'll leave those "kinder, gentler" definitions of hell alone for the time being).

My fundamental theory is that if hell exists, then heaven can't exist as it is depicted in the Scriptures. How can that be, you say? Belief in Jesus GUARANTEES us a place in heaven, does it not? But let's talk about my sister for a moment. Let's talk about my mother. My mother, assuming she doesn't have enough doubt in her heart to keep her out of heaven, believes Christ has saved her from her sins and she is going to heaven. Same with my sister. OK, let's assume some day indeed heaven is where they go, as promised in the Scriptures. And let's assume that my belief in Jesus was never quite strong enough to guarantee me a place in heaven. Let's just assume I'm going to hell.

My fundamental premise is simply this. How could my mother and sister be happy in heaven if they know their dear loved one is suffering eternally in hell? Indeed, knowing this, how could they truly be in heaven at all, for in their hearts, they would be suffering in hell along with me. They might not be in the fire, but they would feel it in their hearts, and after a while, heaven would no longer be heaven for them anymore.

Well, God will "fix" them, you may say. God will ensure they don't worry about their dear daughter or sister in hell. God will ENSURE they are HAPPY in heaven. It's heaven after all, right? And we are PROMISED eternal bliss in heaven.

Will God then take away their compassion? Will God then erase their empathy for another? Worse yet, will God erase their very knowledge of their daughter or sister (when he "wipes their tears away"), thus changing them into some empty being that isn't TRULY my mother or my sister??? I happen to be a mother too, and having a child has changed who I am in profound ways. If I earned a place in heaven and my child was in hell, and God somehow erased my memory of my child or my compassion for my child, then I wouldn't be me anymore.

Indeed, my mother loves me so much that she might even try to make a trade. She might even try to take my place in hell so that my suffering could come to an end. Indeed, my parents might even want to do a "two for one" trade, they love me so much. So great is the love of a parent for a child. We digress again, for yes, I know, you might say..."That's silly. God would never allow such a thing." etc....

But the truth of the matter is that if I end up in hell, in a sense, all of my loved ones end up there with me, at least in spirit. Indeed, the more you think about it, EVERYONE ends up in hell this way, at least EVERYONE who has compassion in their hearts. Is this what a loving God would allow? I think not.

And let's talk about a loving God, a truly loving God. Remember, we are all God's children. Even the angels are God's children, and yes, that even means the devil (assuming the devil exists) is God's child too. Does not God love his children? Do I believe my own mother and father could send me, their child, to a hell of eternal fire and torment? Not for an instant. They could NEVER do that. I don't even thing they could do that to their WORST ENEMY, let alone their child. So if they couldn't do it, how indeed could God do so, because the love and compassion of God is supposed to be greater than that of any human being. Indeed, how could my parents, mere "sinful" human beings, be more compassionate and loving than God himself? That is a contradiction.

So I'm seeking an answer to my question from Christians who do believe in the fiery brimstone version of hell: How can anyone be happy in heaven if they know people they love are suffering eternally in hell?

Respectfully with Peace and Love,
BridgeBuilder

I think this verse in revelation might be addressing this.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[RevHookem]

BB,

I came across this site while doing some research for an upcoming sermon series I'm preparing on heaven & hell... which will include my belief that the "orthodox" doctrine of hell is not only misled but destructive. I have not read this entire thread, just bits and pieces - but enough to say that you have found a great fit in a Disciples of Christ congregation. We are an open minded and thinking people of faith who hold no questions out of bounds. And you will not find the sort of absolute certainty espoused by some others here.

Also, just a recommendation to you as you continue in your journey towards in some way redefining your faith. Brian McLaren has written a trilogy of books, including one aptly entitled "A New Kind of Christian." All three books are excellent and explore many of the themes it sounds like you are exploring. I would highly recommend them to you.

God bless you as you continue on your journey!
In Christ... Don (a Disciples of Christ pastor)

 

[BridgeBuilder]

Dear Rev. Don,

Thank you so much for responding! I'm going back to that Disciples of Christ church tomorrow, and I'm really looking forward to it. I would love being part of a fellowship where we can openly discuss "tough questions" like this without fear of being condemned by our peers.

I'm still in the process of figuring out just what I believe, since I'm only now once again reconsidering Christianity (after abandoning it altogether for a time). Thank you for those book recommendations. I will seek them out. Your reply really touched me. God always seems to know how to give me a little "boost" when I need it. ;-) Thank you again.

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

 

[Calminian]

Sorry to interrupt, just a few comments.

...But again, I don't believe the Bible to be 100% inerrant. So I do understand where you are coming from, as it is Biblical what you are saying.

BB, I give you credit for admitting this. Many who agree with you attempt to twist the Bible to agree with them also. Many are going to come to you and try to say ‘the Bible really doesn't say this,’ or, “the Bible really doesn't say that.” One advantage you have on them is you are willing to say, “yet is does, I just don't believe it.” That's to be commended. Now of course I and many others here are praying that you eventually do believe it, but at least you are not attempting to twist the text as many here unfortunately are doing. I wish they would take a lesson from you and admit their beliefs are unbiblical.

Only according to the God that you believe in. I don't believe in that God, even though parts of the Bible depict that God. Again, I repeat, I do not believe in the 100% inerrancy of the Bible. The Bible also talks about a very loving God, that's the one I focus upon.

The problem you now have before you is how to discern which parts are true and which parts are not—which parts you are to be instructed by, and which should be ignored. Is it all subjective? Do we stand as judges over the Bible? I choose to believe the entire Bible and embrace the parts I can relate to, but also the parts I struggle with. If it is of God I would expect there to be somethings that don't agree with me, but ultimately I'm the one that needs changing. But if we all are free to pick and choose which parts are good and which aren't, is it really a helpful book? I’m sure the Bible agrees with everyone is some area.

Just some thoughts.

 

[*Rob*]

the bible is 100% true, but some parts are metaphorical. Such as some of the prophecies that have come true today

 

[BridgeBuilder]

Dear Calminian and Lloydy,

I certainly completely respect your belief that the Bible is 100% inerrant, even if I don't share it at this time. My parents also believe as you do, and my mother said something similar to your comment some time ago. My mother and I fortunately have a relationship where we can talk about some of my "tough" questions, though it certainly hasn't been easy on her that I stopped going to church for years. The same goes for my sister. She is very kind to me when we talk about these things, although she too disagrees with me. Both my mother and sister go to a conservative southern Baptist church.

My mother always takes comfort in the fact that she believes in eternal security, and she views me as the "prodigal daughter", one who knew the "truth" once (she always mentions how expressive I was regarding my faith and testimony right before I was baptized at the age of 11, she is 100% certain I believed once, as certain as anyone can be regarding the belief of another anyway, so this gives her comfort since she DOES believe in hell). She is thrilled I'm going to church again, even though she knows it is a more "liberal" church than the southern Baptist church she attends. She is just happy that I'm reading the Bible again (even though she knows I don't believe it is inerrant) and attending a "mainstream" church. She views this as a step in the right direction since I used to attend a Unity church for a while years ago, and that always upset her (she thought there was a "demonic" influence there and often sent me articles on it being "a cult" - actually, I learned a lot from my time at Unity, but the church was not for me, I eventually determined.)

I'll be going to church in a few hours, and I'm really looking forward to it. If this church continues to feel ok to me, I intend to bring my 10-year-old son there. This could be somewhat of a problem since his father is an agnostic and has concerns about taking him to church. (I'm a single mother now by the way, after a 15 year marriage.) I think I might need to sit in on the Sunday School or get something on their curriculum before I could make a decision on whether I'm ready to bring my son there. My son has never been in a church, not ever, surprisingly. This of course dismays his grandparents greatly. They were thrilled when I said I was considering taking him, after all these years. They have mentioned some aspects of Christianity to him over the years, but it tends not to really sink in since it has not been reinforced by anyone.

Anyway, I appreciate those Christians who are responding to me in Christian love, even those who believe much more conservatively. I STILL have a huge problem with the 100% inerrancy of the Bible, that one would be really tough for me to "get over". I agree it does take a lot of faith to trust God to guide you to verses in the Bible that are true (and I know some of you would think of this as being misguided, not a question of faith, and I understand that, but for me, it is becoming a matter of faith and trust in God).

I think it frustrates some of you that you can't quote scripture at me without me saying in some cases "Well, I don't believe that verse." But if you are talking to me on this thread, that is the challenge you face. I guess that's why you are venturing into this particular forum to begin with. ;-)

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

 

[Calminian]

My mother always takes comfort in the fact that she believes in eternal security, and she views me as the "prodigal daughter", one who knew the "truth" once (she always mentions how expressive I was regarding my faith and testimony right before I was baptized at the age of 11, she is 100% certain I believed once, as certain as anyone can be regarding the belief of another anyway, so this gives her comfort since she DOES believe in hell). She is thrilled I'm going to church again, even though she knows it is a more "liberal" church than the southern Baptist church she attends. She is just happy that I'm reading the Bible again (even though she knows I don't believe it is inerrant) and attending a "mainstream" church. She views this as a step in the right direction since I used to attend a Unity church for a while years ago, and that always upset her (she thought there was a "demonic" influence there and often sent me articles on it being "a cult" - actually, I learned a lot from my time at Unity, but the church was not for me, I eventually determined.)

A couple of thoughts: I'm also an eternal securist, but don't believe you were ever saved. In fact I don't believe children get saved at young ages. The enlightenment of God (John 1:9, Titus 2:11) is something that I believe only comes upon adults. I don't believe children are condemnable until they reach an age of accountability. In order to end up in Hell, one must commit the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Children cannot do this as they've not been given a true choice yet. The enlightenment of God makes this choice possible.

Reading your testimony I'm inclined to believe this enlightenment may be coming upon you now. You are basically hearing God's voice calling you to Himself. The question is, what will you do with that voice? You truly have a choice. (Heb. 3:15)

Anyway, I appreciate those Christians who are responding to me in Christian love, even those who believe much more conservatively. I STILL have a huge problem with the 100% inerrancy of the Bible, that one would be really tough for me to "get over". I agree it does take a lot of faith to trust God to guide you to verses in the Bible that are true (and I know some of you would think of this as being misguided, not a question of faith, and I understand that, but for me, it is becoming a matter of faith and trust in God).

I would also suggest to you that the concept of faith you have is probably misguided. The modern notion carries the connotation of blindness or a lack of evidence. This idea was foreign to the Biblical writers though. Faith had nothing to do with belief on feeling or belief apart from evidence. That's a modern notion that crept into the term. Here's a great article on biblical faith.

Fallacious Faith
Correcting an All-too-Common Misconception
James Patrick Holding

I think it frustrates some of you that you can't quote scripture at me without me saying in some cases "Well, I don't believe that verse." But if you are talking to me on this thread, that is the challenge you face. I guess that's why you are venturing into this particular forum to begin with. ;-)

I respect the fact that instead of trying to twist the Bible's words you simply admit you don't believe it. I wish many christians were this honest. At the same time, I don't really see how you are any better off than the full blown atheist. You are simply looking to the Bible to find the things it agrees with you about (out of context) but rejecting it as a whole.

I can appreciate that your parents are taking comfort in the new church you are attending. But I fear this is probably because they don't know much about it. I think you've gone from the pot to the frying pan. I know you probably think that's unloving, but I can tell you my motivation is entirely love. By only embracing a limited few things about God you are in essence, rejecting Him. The true God is reaching out to you, but you're embracing one of your own imagination. I can only hope and pray that this liberal church is only a stepping stone.

Just one final thought. I pray no one will deceive you into believing my response, or any of the others that are warning you are unloving. I assure you nothing could be further from the truth.

Prov. 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
(hopefully this isn’t one of those verses you don't believe. )

God bless,
Cal

 

[BridgeBuilder]

Cal,

You made me laugh with that last comment on the verse. It's ok to quote that one.

I'm on a journey right now, I'm the first to admit that. We'll see where it leads.

Your response does not come across as unloving. I know you truly do care about my well-being, and from your perspective, you believe I'm going to hell, so you are doing your best to assist me. I get more upset when people are openly scornful to me, instead of sincerely saying what they think (even if it's somewhat harsh) in a loving way.

I may not agree with you at this time, but I respect you and appreciate that you care. I'll take a look at the article you mentioned. I also promised my mother I would read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and "The Case for Christ" by Lee Stroebel.

I went to church again today and appreciated the service once again. It was quite a bit more conservative today, as they had a visiting minister. Disciples of Christ seems to run the gamut between liberal and conservative. It was a little more difficult for me to listen, but I did. The sermon was on Revelation 1:3-8. It was "Christ the King" day at the church. I also once again really enjoyed the hymns, which brought back lots of memories from my youth. They were all very familiar to me, perhaps they are familiar to you, and I enjoyed singing them with all my heart (I forgot that I like to sing in church) - "Praise to the Lord , the Almighty", "Now Thank We All Our God" and "Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing". I'm just listing these here to give you a glimpse into the character of this church - it is really kind of "middle of the road" I think.

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

 

[Calminian]

I also promised my mother I would read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and "The Case for Christ" by Lee Stroebel.

Great suggestions. I think you'll enjoy both. Smart woman, your mom!

 

[MikeMcK]

And I answered them to the best of my ability.

I'll let others who read this thread assess that. You keep asking me to define my terms. I was an evangelical once. I understand what words like "born again" mean. But you insist I keep defining and defining. Look in the Bible, the definitions are all in there, I don't need to restate every one. We come from a common frame of reference, but you refuse to believe that.

OF COURSE it is a synopsis. It is a SINGLE verse. I'm not going to quote all the gospels to you on this forum. You are mincing words again by questioning every little thing I say, even something so basic as to say John 3:16 is a good representation of the "basics" of what evangelical Christians believe. John 3:17 is a good one too. Actually the whole chapter of John 3 covers it quite well. But I'm not going to quote all of that here.

That is your perception. To me, it has come across as judgemental. But I will accept your word that it was not your intent to judge me.

OK, I'll accept that, thank you. Perhaps I misconstrued your words.

Fine, I'll stop trying to interpret your words.

This gets tricky since the Bible says many things, some of which are contradictory to me. But yes, I understand where you are coming from here. I'm making assumptions that you believe the same way as my parents (who are evangelicals), and that may not be the case. I'm just trying to establish a basis where you understand that I know where you are coming from, but apparently you think you are as misperceived as I feel I'm misperceived. OK, I can accept that.

Yes, I was "born again" by the Bible's standards, or how I believe you interpret the Bible. Again, this gets tricky since it all depends on how you interpret the Bible (at least that's what I think).


I no longer claim to be "born again" by the evangelical interpretation of the Bible, but I did once. That was then, this is now. I actually know there are verses in the Bible to support your position that once you are in the Body of Christ, you can never leave if you were truly saved. In fact, I was just reading Romans about that this morning. But again, I don't believe the Bible to be 100% inerrant. So I do understand where you are coming from, as it is Biblical what you are saying.

I USED to claim to be born again by evangelical Biblical standards. And back then, I DID desire to be part of the evangelical community. And interestingly enough, if you have read other parts of this thread, I'm going to church again, but I don't claim to be "born again" by the way evangelical Christians interpret the Bible. I actually do think I'm being "born again" in other ways, but not the way evangelicals interpret the Bible. There are many ways people can interpret the Bible, so it gets very difficult to say things like "Well how it says in the Bible".

There you go again, implying that I misunderstand evangelical Christianity. I was NOT a Roman Catholic (I have heard that works are very important to Roman Catholics, that is not what I'm saying). I was NOT a Mormon. I was NOT a Jehovah's Witness. I was an evangelical Christian.

What I'm saying here is very subtle actually. You questioned whether I could trust my "heart" that I truly repented and accepted that Jesus died on the cross for my sins (and please don't start "mincing my words" again here or I'll stop saying anything and just quote scripture). My question here is how can you ever know that you "believe strongly enough" to be saved if you can't trust your heart? This has nothing to do with the "works can earn your way into heaven" doctrine that some say Catholics believe (I'm not going to even try to address what Catholics believe since I really don't know for sure, but I have heard my mother criticize the "works" doctrine of Catholics plenty of times.)

Only according to the God that you believe in. I don't believe in that God, even though parts of the Bible depict that God. Again, I repeat, I do not believe in the 100% inerrancy of the Bible. The Bible also talks about a very loving God, that's the one I focus upon.

Again, did I say I was still "born again" by evangelical standards (unless we start debating eternal security, which gets complicated)? This is also your evaluation of what "fruit" means. I think you can also see "fruit" in how a person leads their life, not just in their words, in fact that is MY interpretation of that verse.

I have no desire to report you, as it did not cross the line. It just came close. I'll let the moderators decide, since they are no doubt monitoring this thread. I don't particularly like the tone it is taking, and I'm doing my best to keep things as respectful as possible.

I'm simply interpreting the "fruits" of your words to me, my interpretation, I admit. Perhaps my perception is incorrect, I'm willing to concede that in the spirit of God's love for all of us and Jesus' instruction to us to love our neighbors. And I never said you were an "intolerant, bigoted redneck". Those are YOUR words, not mine, and they are rather inflammatory. In fact, I said that I love my family very much, and they are evangelical Christians who believe the Bible to be 100% inerrant. I also happen to respect my family and I honor their right to believe as they do. I'll let others reading this thread evaluate if anyone is coming across as intolerant. That's not for me to say.

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

I'm sorry, but I've tried to talk to you respectfully and I've tried to answer your questions Biblically and to explain to you what the Bible tells us and to present you with the Gospel. You clearly are not open to that right now, so the best that I can do now is to pray for you and hope that you'll repent and get right with God and give your life to Christ before it's too late.

At this point, anything more would simply be throwing pearls before swine to be trampled underfoot.

 

[BridgeBuilder]

Mike,

Your words contradict themselves. First you tell me you're sorry and are trying to be respectful, and I appreciate that. Then you insult me. You really think it's "respectful" to call someone "swine"? (I know it's in the Bible, but it's really rude to say that directly to someone's "face", internet between us or not.)

I'm not sure I'll be posting here much longer, as I don't appreciate being treated with derision, and that takes its toll. I will tell you that between this forum and another where I have been, the supercilious, scornful and inconsiderate attitudes displayed by some evangelical Christians have not exactly been shining examples of "Christian love" attracting me to the faith. If anything, such behavior just drives non-Christians away, and I'm testifying to this right now as a non-Christian. You all might think about that in the future. Perhaps God is trying to tell you something, even if the source is a lowly "non-Christian".

I think it is ok to display "tough love" without insulting a person. Even a simple "God Bless You" at the end of a message would help (as long as you don't insult the person in the line before). In my opinion as a non-Christian posting here, you all really need to be on your best behavior in this particular forum (aimed specifically at non-Christians) or you are going to drive people away, and I really don't think that is your intent. A song from my youth comes to mind "And they'll know they are Christians by their love, by their love. And they'll know they are Christians by their love."

God Bless You All,
BridgeBuilder

 

[heron]

There seems to be an impatience with people taking in concepts from the scriptures. This is not a race, and people are not incomplete until they finally agree to everything. There is no deadline for agreeing with everything we read.

God knows that the learning process is gradual. Faith doesn't come from jumping. Faith comes from hearing.

Isaiah 1:18
Come now and let us reason together, says Jehovah: Though your sins are as scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red as the crimson, they shall be like wool.

 

[MikeMcK]

Your words contradict themselves. First you tell me you're sorry and are trying to be respectful, and I appreciate that. Then you insult me. You really think it's "respectful" to call someone "swine"?

I wouldn't know. I never called anybody "swine". I haven't insulted you at all. In fact, I believe, given the way you've behaved toward me, I've been very respectful to you.

I'm not sure I'll be posting here much longer, as I don't appreciate being treated with derision, and that takes its toll.

I haven't seen anyone here treat you that way, but if you feel that someone has, then you should report them to the mods.

I will tell you that between this forum and another where I have been, the supercilious, scornful and inconsiderate attitudes displayed by some evangelical Christians have not exactly been shining examples of "Christian love" attracting me to the faith.

If you're attracted by someone's behavior and not by being horrified by your sins and realizing your need for a Savior, then that's a good indication that you're not ready to be a Christian.

If anything, such behavior just drives non-Christians away, and I'm testifying to this right now as a non-Christian. You all might think about that in the future. Perhaps God is trying to tell you something, even if the source is a lowly "non-Christian".

Perhaps God has been trying to tell you something, even if the source is a bunch of ignorant, intolerant Christians.

I think it is ok to display "tough love" without insulting a person.

No one here has insulted you. Frankly, I believe that you're just mad that I'm sticking to God's word and not giving in to your false ideas of what being born again is all about.

A song from my youth comes to mind "And they'll know they are Christians by their love, by their love. And they'll know they are Christians by their love."

The problem is that anyone who doesn't tell you what you want to hear, you're going to say is unloving.

 

[BridgeBuilder]

I'll let others reading this thread draw their own conclusions regarding whether anyone has been insulting to me or not. I'm sure at least one moderator is reading this thread.

All I can say is that's the way it has been perceived by me. If that "swine" comment wasn't for me, who was it for?

And whether you are perceived as scornful instead of loving should be of concern to you if you are trying to "reach" non-Christians. Maybe you need to soften your approach.

BTW, in this forum and the other one I'm participating in, there have indeed been evangelical Christians who have treated me with kindness, while at the same time saying things to try to guide me to evangelical Christianity. So it CAN be done.

Peace and Love,
BridgeBuilder